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Thread: Three days of shooting with 7D-AF performance and IQ

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    Default Three days of shooting with 7D-AF performance and IQ

    Following up on 7D IQ and AF performance, this weekend I went shooting Cali raptors with Oliver Klink in Half Moon Bay area, weather was quite nice and raptor activity was high we got many good photos. I also took the camera for for a shoot on Friday to Palo Alto Baylands in order to evaluate the new AF system with shore birds.

    First the positives, the camera is very well built, it feels professional and chunky as opposed to the hallow feel of 50D and 5DMKII. It has a soft shutter release which makes it feel faster and more responsive, controls' layout is very good and the addition of the new CF-n button is welcomed. The IQ of the new camera is also good, when shotting in RAW mode and processing with Canon DPP, files are cleaner in terms of both chrominance and luminance noise compared to the 50D, when inspected at 1:1. The noise pattern is tighter and easier to clean up, it is not as good as a full frame camera but certainly good given its tight pixel pitch.

    As for AI-servo tracking performance, I tried all the possible permutations on Friday, taking about 600 frames. Results were somewhat mixed, sometimes the photos were OOF for no apparent reason. I took the 7D to the raptor shoot as my main flight camera paired with my 400 f/5.6L. The camera was used in the field two full days in a row with about 2K shots. the camera seems to lock very quickly, however the percentage of sharp photos was unfortunately very low, even in good light and moderate tracking situations. We used single AF, spot AF, and AF expansion mode, C.Fn III-1 was set to slow and slow+1C.Fn III-2 was set to 0 (forcing focus priority rather than drive speed) and C.Fn III-3 was set to 1 (tracking priority to avoid AF being fooled by FG/BG foliage). After reviewing the images I suspected something was wrong with my lens or hand-holding technique although I was able to get much better results hand holding a much heavier rig that I had brought for tripod shots of perched raptors. The next day I gave the camera to Oliver to try it with his 400 f/4 DO and 500 f/4, both lenses produce very sharp flight images with a 1DS MKIII. Again different permutations of AF-expansion mode, single AF and spot AF were used. Looking at the morning images, again the percentage of sharp images was very low and upon comparing single-shot with AI-servo shots of perched raptors we concluded that the expansion mode AF has no particular bias on the selected center point and has a tendency to randomly lock on BG, or any other point it wishes. In the evening we tried spot AF and we got mixed results, again some shots that should have been nailed instantly were completely OOF. We also tried single AF point with spot sensors disabled and no expansion, while things improved a for birds against clear BG, camera had instability holding focus on stationary subjects as well as tracking against busy BG. I am including some samples here. I did a quick search on the internet and I found another bird shooter reporting similar lock on the BG issue.
    but I am not sure how credible this is, nevertheless I am recommending people who have not bought the camera yet to hold their order until more people evaluate the AF performance. I am also calling CPS tomorrow to figure what they have to say. I would be interested to hear what other 7D owners have been getting in the field.

    These are a few shots from a sequence of 35 shots, there are no in focus frames in this sequence.







    There were tens of sequences with very few or no critically sharp images, this is a sequence of 20





    Harries are very challenging as they abruptly dive and bank in a random pattern, however I do expect to get some sharp photos in a sequence, at the same time the above sequence was taken I also tried a much heavier rig which included a zoom lens and a TC (not the ideal case of tracking) and I was able to achieve a good number of very sharp images.
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 10-05-2009 at 02:59 AM.
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    Arash, thanks for sharing your experience; the first one with actual credible shots with AF illuminators included!

    This sure sounds disappointing... I was at Blufftop coastal park a few weekends ago and my 300/2.8 + 2X performed quite well that day. I have been contemplating getting a 7D but waiting for the user reports after the 1DIII fiasco. It seems like that has to wait even longer now.

    Here are a few from the sequence; more are beibg processed. All of these are about 50% crops of the actual images downsampled for web sharing...

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00000016849087

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00000016849087

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00000016849087

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00000016849087




    -- Vivek

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    Arash,
    Did you get a chance to use Zone AF with the central cluster (9) ? I notice that you used Spot-AF on BIF's....hmmmmm :-), what were you thinking? :-)

    Any of these 5 OOF images you posted have spot-af used ?

    I am getting my camera in a couple of days, will give it some cardio with BIF's and post my opinions soon.

    From Canon DLC:
    ------------------
    Spot AF:

    The benefit of Spot AF — its ability to let you pin-point focus upon a tiny area of a scene — has obvious potential benefits and applications, and we’re sure advanced users and pros will come to appreciate this new feature. But this can have a possible downside, too. By forcing AF upon only a tiny area of your subject, if that happens to fall upon a part of your subject that’s relatively plain, solid and lacking detail, the AF system may have trouble focusing upon it. This can be a real problem with fast moving subjects, especially if they’re moving erratically. At times like these, actually having a larger area can be a more effective way to shoot.
    -----------------


    Zone AF has the potential to be especially useful for action photographers, shooting subjects ranging from track and field to birds in flight.
    Again, it’s particularly adept at picking one nearest subject from a range of subjects, like a cluster of runners at a track meet, and putting sharpest focus on that which is nearest.

    http://usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?...rticleTypeID=5
    -----------------


    Give it a try and let us know if it makes a difference.
    Last edited by Kiran Khanzode; 10-05-2009 at 10:14 AM.

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    Thanks for sharing Arash. Looking forward to more tests.

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    Default Subjects are extremely small

    The subjects used in those examples don't even occupy 10% of the frame, more like 5%. Even if they were to be in focus, the image quality would greatly suffer due to the sizable cropping you would have to do.

    Also, the focus squares that you see superimposed on the viewfinder aren't that big. They are just reference points.

    I'm not so sure those are valid tests.

    Just my two cents,

    Alan

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    Far be it for me to sound like a BIF expert. However, if I have a subject that occupies so small an area of the frame I try to aquire AF and track, but as soon as the subject fills more of the frame I re-push the AF button again to re-aquire focus and track from there. I believe many on this forum "pump" the AF often during a flight sequence.

    BTW, Renate, those are some good, well focused images on FM.
    Last edited by Ed Cordes; 10-05-2009 at 12:15 PM. Reason: Set to subscribe

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    Arash

    I meant to ask what Alex above did. How much of a crop are these? This is critical in knowing if there is an issue with AF or not. Also, I did not find full EXIF in the above shots, am I missing something?

    -- Vivek.

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    Hi, I have been using the 7D for the past three days with James. James too played with the camera. We were both very impressed with the 7D AF with a 300 f/2.8 + 2x. I am traveling; will try to post some images.

    I am a greenhorn so the keeper rate was not fantastic. However, against a relatively clear sky, I used 19 points and the camera AF all of the points and held onto the terns. Have some great sharp images where the eye of the fish in the terns beak is also reasonably sharp.

    I will try and point one tonight along with the settings if I have a signal.

    I am very happy with the camera.
    Cheers, Jay

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    Hi Kiran,
    I used the zone AF extensively in the first day, IMO it is useless for tracking as there is no bias between the different point in the zone, the camera just picks one randomly. It only works when bird is against plain sky.




    Quote Originally Posted by Kiran Khanzode View Post
    Arash,
    Did you get a chance to use Zone AF with the central cluster (9) ? I notice that you used Spot-AF on BIF's....hmmmmm :-), what were you thinking? :-)

    Any of these 5 OOF images you posted have spot-af used ?

    I am getting my camera in a couple of days, will give it some cardio with BIF's and post my opinions soon.

    From Canon DLC:
    ------------------
    Spot AF:

    The benefit of Spot AF — its ability to let you pin-point focus upon a tiny area of a scene — has obvious potential benefits and applications, and we’re sure advanced users and pros will come to appreciate this new feature. But this can have a possible downside, too. By forcing AF upon only a tiny area of your subject, if that happens to fall upon a part of your subject that’s relatively plain, solid and lacking detail, the AF system may have trouble focusing upon it. This can be a real problem with fast moving subjects, especially if they’re moving erratically. At times like these, actually having a larger area can be a more effective way to shoot.
    -----------------


    Zone AF has the potential to be especially useful for action photographers, shooting subjects ranging from track and field to birds in flight.
    Again, it’s particularly adept at picking one nearest subject from a range of subjects, like a cluster of runners at a track meet, and putting sharpest focus on that which is nearest.

    http://usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?...rticleTypeID=5
    -----------------


    Give it a try and let us know if it makes a difference.
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 10-06-2009 at 03:15 AM.
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    Settings:


    C.Fn III

    1 - slow
    2 - 0
    3 - 1

    Both James and I felt that the AF with either 9 or 19 held the first bird locked in a relatively clear sky.
    Cheers, Jay

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    Arash- Except for the first and last images which appear out of focus, it is impossible to diagnose without knowing the techs for the images, in particular the shutter speed and the f-stop. The second image clearly shows evidence of camera or subject movement. Considering the size of the subject, the harrier image is very good I think.

    I would expect the AA filter on the 7D to be pretty aggressive so at 100% viewing, distant, small subjects will not look critically sharp. Try some larger subjects and process for BPN and I expect you might be happier.

    BTW, the adage "Practice makes perfect (or almost so)" applies particularly to new camera gear, AF and BIF!
    Last edited by John Chardine; 10-05-2009 at 01:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Stankevitz View Post
    The subjects used in those examples don't even occupy 10% of the frame, more like 5%. Even if they were to be in focus, the image quality would greatly suffer due to the sizable cropping you would have to do.

    Also, the focus squares that you see superimposed on the viewfinder aren't that big. They are just reference points.

    I'm not so sure those are valid tests.

    Just my two cents,

    Alan
    Alan,

    The camera should have no problem picking the subject in any of these conditions, in the same condition a Nikon D700 had no issues tracking the harrier with 200-400 VR + 1.4X TC despite the zoom, TC and being much heavier to HH. Also a 1DS MKIII had no problem in these conditions either, In these cameras, subject is even smaller in the frame than the 7D.,


    full frame D700




    100% crop





    BTW, this was not meant to be a test, it was a real photoshoot, the bottom line is we were not able to get that many keepers with 7D, while other gear produced great results I will post my photos in the critque forum later.

    When you get your 7D and test it in the field, I look forward to seeing your results :)
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 10-05-2009 at 01:40 PM.
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    If you want to see how large the subject was in the actual frame for 7D here is a sample.



    100%

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Chardine View Post
    Arash- Except for the first and last images which appear out of focus, it is impossible to diagnose without knowing the techs for the images, in particular the shutter speed and the f-stop. The second image clearly shows evidence of camera or subject movement. Considering the size of the subject, the harrier image is very good I think.

    I would expect the AA filter on the 7D to be pretty aggressive so at 100% viewing, distant, small subjects will not look critically sharp. Try some larger subjects and process for BPN and I expect you might be happier.

    BTW, the adage "Practice makes perfect (or almost so)" applies particularly to new camera gear, AF and BIF!
    John,

    Thank you for your comments, the shutter speed was not an issue here and the setup was very light (7D + 400 f/5.6), as I mentioned I produced perfectly in focus shots in the same condition with other gear (see above example) and this is the result after 3,000 photos not 10 or 20. Also as I mentioned Oliver Klink who is a world-famous wildlife photographer and a Canon shooter in the Bay area tried the camera and couldn't get much out of it except for some hawk shots where the red-tailed was against clear sky and very close. For now I am calling CPS to see what happens, Fortunately I had the D700 which I had intended for high ISO tripod shots only but ended up handholding it and chasing harriers for two says (my hands and shouler are sore! :D) saved me and I was able to get really nice shots, I will post these in the following days in the critique forums. There were many bodies (both Canon and Nikon) used in this shoot by 10 photographers, my 7D produced the fewest number of keepers. I am sorry if I had to mention this but I am disappointed as I paid $1700 plus $70 overnight shipping to get the camera for this shoot and I got no keepers.

    I hope it is a fault with this unit or some issue they can correct with firmware, otherwise it is a great camera and IQ is better than 50D (it has a lighter AA)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Gould View Post
    Settings:


    C.Fn III

    1 - slow
    2 - 0
    3 - 1

    Both James and I felt that the AF with either 9 or 19 held the first bird locked in a relatively clear sky.
    Jay,
    We used the same settings, I would like to see your 100% crop BIFs, especially if you have something against a bushy BG like the samples I posted as opposed to bird against plain sky.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Cordes View Post
    Far be it for me to sound like a BIF expert. However, if I have a subject that occupies so small an area of the frame I try to aquire AF and track, but as soon as the subject fills more of the frame I re-push the AF button again to re-aquire focus and track from there. I believe many on this forum "pump" the AF often during a flight sequence.

    BTW, Renate, those are some good, well focused images on FM.
    Yes Ed, that is the technique we use too for harriers and hawks against foliage, I decouple AF from shutter then track by pumping AF-ON, here is another example with D700 using the same technique. It's a very heavy crop. D700 and 1DSMKIII did also produce OOF images for sure but the keeper to OOF ratio was above 50% for both, 7D had almost no keepers.




    What your impressions of 7D AF?
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 10-05-2009 at 01:49 PM.
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    Guys thank you for your comments, I have to leave this for now and get back to work. I look forward to seeing BIF samples from other 7D owners., it is also possible that this early unit is defective. I just wanted to give everybody a heads up warning.
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 10-05-2009 at 01:46 PM.
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    Lots of 7D images are being posted on POTN: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=760327
    Cheers, Jay

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Gould View Post
    Lots of 7D images are being posted on POTN: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=760327

    Jay all I see is cat and dog pics here, would you direct me to BIF samples? Also would you mind posting 100% crops of the flight shots you made with Jim using 7D?
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    Hi Arash, I have had a computer BSOD and had to buy a new computer. It is going to be a week+ before I can load LR/PS. I will load DPP tonight so that I have some converter until I am up and running with LR/PS.

    I am able to open the 7D CR2 in Breeze Browser but it will not convert 7D images.

    Going to need an update from BB rather quickly.

    Pretty funny that someone on POTN asked about the 7D and BIf and the link to this thread was posted.
    Cheers, Jay

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    Here is a thread over on Fred Miranda with some flight as well as static images captured with the 7D...

    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/820388

    Arash... do you have any captures where the subject/raptor fills over 50% of the frame? If so, I think those would serve well in further seeing how the AF system is performing. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Gould View Post
    Hi Arash, I have had a computer BSOD and had to buy a new computer. It is going to be a week+ before I can load LR/PS. I will load DPP tonight so that I have some converter until I am up and running with LR/PS.

    I am able to open the 7D CR2 in Breeze Browser but it will not convert 7D images.

    Going to need an update from BB rather quickly.

    Pretty funny that someone on POTN asked about the 7D and BIf and the link to this thread was posted.
    Jay,
    I look forward your samples when you fix your system. When using DPP, please turn ON AF point display so we can see where you put the AF point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Blumenkamp View Post
    Here is a thread over on Fred Miranda with some flight as well as static images captured with the 7D...

    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/820388

    Arash... do you have any captures where the subject/raptor fills over 50% of the frame? If so, I think those would serve well in further seeing how the AF system is performing. Thanks.
    I saw those pics, it is not clear if they are crops or full frame and how sharp the original is and how many shots he took before getting one in focus. BCNHs are relatively easy target for AF compared to Kestrels and Harriers. I do have stationary large samples I will post some later. The point here is that 7D failed in the SAME condition of light, distance and subject where other bodies did not. Any ways, I really gtg now :D

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    Arash- A 1.6 crop body like the 7D will be no contest against a FF 12 mp body like the D700 or the 5D- the FF will win the IQ contest every time, out of the camera (I have the 5D and 50D) so I am not at all surprised at your results. The D700 image of the harrier is very nice and it may be a heavy crop but the crop rate has to be standardised to be comparable. BTW focus is not the only reason that an image is soft viewed at 100% out of the camera.

    Thanks for taking the time to do this BTW. It's all very interesting but I would caution (and being a scientist you know this) that comparisons are experiments and they have to be controlled so that the variable of interest is being studied, unconfounded. With all the different sensors and bodies out there it is quite a challenge to set up a well controlled experiment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Chardine View Post
    Arash- A 1.6 crop body like the 7D will be no contest against a FF 12 mp body like the D700 or the 5D- the FF will win the IQ contest every time, out of the camera (I have the 5D and 50D) so I am not at all surprised at your results. The D700 image of the harrier is very nice and it may be a heavy crop but the crop rate has to be standardised to be comparable. BTW focus is not the only reason that an image is soft viewed at 100% out of the camera.

    Thanks for taking the time to do this BTW. It's all very interesting but I would caution (and being a scientist you know this) that comparisons are experiments and they have to be controlled so that the variable of interest is being studied, unconfounded. With all the different sensors and bodies out there it is quite a challenge to set up a well controlled experiment.
    John I 100% agree with you, I do not expect 7D IQ to better that of D700 I just want it to focus on the harrier, if it can focus then I will deal with noise and sharpening but I can't do anything about a full blown AF shot. The kind of softness in 7D shots is not due to it's AA filter or tight pixel, it is just blown AF. I will post some stationary samples where it did manage to focus so you can see the sharpness and detail. IMO 7D could be the best flight camera with a 400DO, very mobile and versatile setup with lots of reach but if and only if the AF works.

    I also agree with you that these are not laboratory tests, in fact I cannot think of a way for a controlled test to evaluate AF with a moving subject in a fully scientific and reproducible manner. However with so many shots and extensive usage, statistically you expect to get a certain number of in focus shots here and there, my problem is I got very very few in flight keepers with 7D, the sensor sizes are different but that does not affect AF performance, for what matters the FF cameras usually have a tougher time since the subject is smaller in the frame for you to track. You know that I was not a big fan of 50D either, I bitched about its IQ however I had much better luck with its AF system, I posted many shots with that body in the critique forum. I was so confident in Canon that I sold my 50D before trying the 7D but now I wish I had kept it so I could compare results. Any ways, I look forward to hearing about your experience if you decide to get a 7D.
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 10-05-2009 at 03:32 PM.
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    Just thought for completeness I'd add a cross-reference to Arash's thread on the same subject on dpreview:

    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...hread=33253883

    He mentions there having problems with static AF too.

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    Hi Arash. I just spent an afternoon doing flight photography with the 7D and it was a rock-solid performer in the AF department. My percentage of keepers when I've got the bird in the crosshairs was over 90%. And that includes subjects like Kingfishers. I'm not sure what's going on with your body, but I hope you're able to resolve the problem.
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    Hi Doug, 90% keeper ratio is excellent, never had a flight ratio close to that with any camera. Can you post some 100% crops? What CFn settings did you use in your camera and what lenses did you try? Also what was the lightning conditioon and temprature in the location of the shoot? So I guess you are selling your MKIII soon :D

    Thanks
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    Guys here are two static AF examples. first with 400 f/5.6 second with 400 DO.



    Here are two shots in a row with stationary hawk, notice how AF is unstable between the shots

    locked


    OOF


    This shot is a piece of cake any AF system should nail.
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    Arash,

    I guess it's time for you to stick a benjamin on the wall and shoot those( 50 x focal length) distance shots so we can confirm there's a problem with your system.

    Thx,
    Kiran

    PS: Did you micro-adjust the 400 5.6 or the DO for this body ?
    Last edited by Kiran Khanzode; 10-05-2009 at 11:19 PM.

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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    I was using the 500 f/4 with and without the 1.4x. I was on the coast with sunny conditions and a temperature of about 70 degrees. Here's a 100% crop of a Brown Pelican. Straight from DPP to JPG. Techs: f/5.6, 1/1250, ISO 800, 500mm.
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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    Here's a pic with the focus point illustrated.
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    Hey Doug,

    Thanks a bunch but I had no problems with Pelicans myself :D especially against sky. The giant slow cruisers are easy prey. Here is one from Friday in lower light, basically all keepers...



    What I like is raptors against foliage that brings every AF system to its knees!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiran Khanzode View Post
    Arash,

    I guess it's time for you to stick a benjamin on the wall and shoot those( 50 x focal length) distance shots so we can confirm there's a problem with your system.

    Thx,
    Kiran

    PS: Did you micro-adjust the 400 5.6 or the DO for this body ?
    Kiran we tried with several lenses, all were being used at the time and it is improbable that they were all out of calibration.

    From experience I can tell it is not a matter of micro-adjust as you can see from the red-tailed portrait, camera does deliver razor sharp photos occasionally but not consistently. It is totally random.

    Just look at the two red-tailed shots in a row, one is razor sharp and one is OOF, how can you explain this with micro-adjust???? :confused:

    If I am such an incompetent stupid and incapable person, how could I obtain a shot like this hand holding a 12lb Nikon rig in 15-20mph Half Moon Bay wind? It was the first time I was using this rig, I have been using Canon since summer 2004. I was actually debating whether I should share my findings here or not, I regret that I posted this. Either I am nuts and just BSing, got a bad unit or if this is a common problem, it will surface slowly with time and other pros will eventually discover this and ***** about it any way, just like the MKIII.

    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 10-06-2009 at 12:00 AM.
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    That's a very beautiful shot, Arash. I am just worried/wondering that you've been using Spot-AF in Ai-Servo, perhaps, and hence got some of these skewed results on day 2-3....not sure.

    Anyway, I am going to try this same combo in a couple of days. Will update this thread once I have some pics.

    Thx for all the info and test data.
    Last edited by Kiran Khanzode; 10-06-2009 at 12:21 AM.

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    I am a Nikon user and not qualified to comment on Canon gear ,
    But IMHO , D700+200-400 and 7D+400f5.6 is not a fair comparision

    Just my two cents

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    I was just wandering why we have not herd from Artie on this camera he is a canon rep is he not Thanks Brad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harshad Barve View Post
    I am a Nikon user and not qualified to comment on Canon gear ,
    But IMHO , D700+200-400 and 7D+400f5.6 is not a fair comparision

    Just my two cents
    Hi Harshad,
    I am not comparing the two gear in terms of their IQ, the 7D has the BEST AF of any Canon DSLR according to CPS. Lenses like 400 f/5.6, 400 f/4 DO and 500 f/4 IS are the best lenses Canon have and in par with Nikon's very best. 7D and a prime should perform better than a zoom lens with a 1.4X TC.

    Best,
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 10-06-2009 at 12:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    Hi Harshad,
    I am not comparing the two gear at all, the 7D has the BEST AF of any Canon DSLR according to CPS. Lenses like 400 f/5.6, 400 f/4 DO and 500 f/4 IS are the best lenses Canon have and in par with Nikon's very best. I wanted to show that it was not the distance, bird being far etc etc that lead to OOF shots with the 7D.

    Best,

    May be my inadequate knowldge Arash , My appologies if I have mis guided discussions

    Harshad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harshad Barve View Post
    May be my inadequate knowldge Arash , My appologies if I have mis guided discussions

    Harshad
    No worries and no need for apology Harshad :)
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    I promised to post some in focus samples here is one of the few, sorry for the bad perch the point is when the perch was good focus failed.
    You can see that when the shot is in focus detail/sharpness is pretty good and noise is not an issue unlike the 50D.

    400 f/5.6L ISO400



    100% crop, notice the subtle blood stain on the beak




    moments later when the hawk takes off. This was a sweet one it missed.




    After reading this thread I find the servo instability problem with static subjects very similar to what observed here
    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=33214215

    I bought my camera from B&H serial ends with 251. CPS representative will call me tomorrow but regardless of what he recommends I have decided to return this camera to B&H.
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 10-06-2009 at 04:57 AM. Reason: added link
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    interesting mixed results and discussion. will follow this thread closely as more results are posted. crossing my fingers that it's just your copy Arash :)
    Morkel Erasmus

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    Arash, I have to lay claim to being the world's worst BIF photographer, but I wonder if setting C.Fn III-1 'AI Servo tracking sensitivity' to the slowest settings may be an issue. I'm sitting here, scanning objects in a domestic light illuminated living room at night, with 7D, 70-200mm f/4 IS and single center point AF. With C.Fn III-1 set to 'Slow' there is a pause before the focus locks-on. When set to 'Fast' the lock-on is instantaneous, which is similar behaviour to my 40D. Perhaps 'Fast' may not be the best thing for BIF, but probably suits my style of photographing small birds up close with a big lens, which I often find difficult get the camera frame on, before they bounce off. Simon
    Last edited by Simon Bennett; 10-06-2009 at 05:28 AM. Reason: grammer

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    Arash,
    Post no. 30: First shot: The AF point covers a large area. It is in the head as well as the wing, which are obviously not in the same plane. Where do you expect the focus to be? The subject was too far. IMHO If you could have ensured that the focus was only on the head then it would have been better.

    Post no. 30: Second and Third shots: Please check for the head movement. You can see the eye and the shadow to realise that the head has turned. Since these are heavy crops, we have no idea whether you have moved while photographing as the compositions are different. I think that is why Kiran commented that you should stick a dollar or something in the wall and a test.

    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post

    If I am such an incompetent stupid and incapable person, how could I obtain a shot like this hand holding a 12lb Nikon rig in 15-20mph Half Moon Bay wind? It was the first time I was using this rig, I have been using Canon since summer 2004. I was actually debating whether I should share my findings here or not, I regret that I posted this. Either I am nuts and just BSing, got a bad unit or if this is a common problem, it will surface slowly with time and other pros will eventually discover this and ***** about it any way, just like the MKIII.
    I don't understand your comment about regretting posting this thread in BPN.

    We don't doubt your calibre as a photographer. People who have bought this camera as well as others who are tracking it are trying to analyse the issue. We hope this issue is resolved to your satisfaction.

    Would look forward to further updates from you as well as others.

    Cheers,
    Sabyasachi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Bennett View Post
    Arash, I have to lay claim to being the world's worst BIF photographer, but I wonder if setting C.Fn III-1 'AI Servo tracking sensitivity' to the slowest settings may be an issue. I'm sitting here, scanning objects in a domestic light illuminated living room at night, with 7D, 70-200mm f/4 IS and single center point AF. With C.Fn III-1 set to 'Slow' there is a pause before the focus locks-on. When set to 'Fast' the lock-on is instantaneous, which is similar behaviour to my 40D. Perhaps 'Fast' may not be the best thing for BIF, but probably suits my style of photographing small birds up close with a big lens, which I often find difficult get the camera frame on, before they bounce off. Simon
    In his case, he's already locked on to the subject...
    I am no expert either but from what I understand "AI Servo tracking sensitivity" does not affect/enhance/improve the Ai-Servo tracking "speed" as such, this setting determines how quickly will the camera move focus off of the main subject (when you are tracking him) if something comes in between the camera and your main subject. Setting of 'slow' is better, in this case. There's some milli seconds value associated with each tracking sensitivity value, iirc (will check).
    Somebody please correct me if I am not making sense here.


    Rob Galbraith tells people to call this setting " New Subject Acquisition Delay" so it makes sense while using/setting it.
    Last edited by Kiran Khanzode; 10-06-2009 at 09:19 AM.

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    In post #30 the focus point is on the head, but the feathers under the wing, under the focus point to the right of the frame, look better. I wonder if calibration would show some front focusing which could be corrected by calibration?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Bennett View Post
    Arash, I have to lay claim to being the world's worst BIF photographer, but I wonder if setting C.Fn III-1 'AI Servo tracking sensitivity' to the slowest settings may be an issue. I'm sitting here, scanning objects in a domestic light illuminated living room at night, with 7D, 70-200mm f/4 IS and single center point AF. With C.Fn III-1 set to 'Slow' there is a pause before the focus locks-on. When set to 'Fast' the lock-on is instantaneous, which is similar behaviour to my 40D. Perhaps 'Fast' may not be the best thing for BIF, but probably suits my style of photographing small birds up close with a big lens, which I often find difficult get the camera frame on, before they bounce off. Simon

    Simon setting this option to slow helps reduce the erratic behaivior of locking on the BG.
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 10-06-2009 at 11:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabyasachi Patra View Post
    Arash,
    Post no. 30: First shot: The AF point covers a large area. It is in the head as well as the wing, which are obviously not in the same plane. Where do you expect the focus to be? The subject was too far. IMHO If you could have ensured that the focus was only on the head then it would have been better.

    Post no. 30: Second and Third shots: Please check for the head movement. You can see the eye and the shadow to realise that the head has turned. Since these are heavy crops, we have no idea whether you have moved while photographing as the compositions are different. I think that is why Kiran commented that you should stick a dollar or something in the wall and a test.



    I don't understand your comment about regretting posting this thread in BPN.

    We don't doubt your calibre as a photographer. People who have bought this camera as well as others who are tracking it are trying to analyse the issue. We hope this issue is resolved to your satisfaction.

    Would look forward to further updates from you as well as others.

    Cheers,
    Sabyasachi

    Thanks Sabyasachi,

    I have already done my analysis and arrived at my conclusion. I wanted to share my findings here, but it seems to me this is like a court session between me and Canon ambassadors now where I have to prove my innocence by providing forensic evidence. So far only Doug has actually used a 7D in the field and provided useful feedback by posting a sample, both of us successfully tracked pelicans against sky, this tells me my camera does not need micro-adjsutemnts.

    Any ways, It's just a camera and it didn't work for me, hope it does for you all :)

    Best regards,

    Arash
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 10-06-2009 at 11:00 AM.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    Thanks Sabyasachi,

    I have already done my analysis and arrived at my conclusion. I wanted to share my findings here, but it seems to me this is like a court session between me and Canon ambassadors now where I have to prove my innocence by providing forensic evidence. It's just a camera and it didn't work for me, hope it does for you all :)

    Best regards,

    Arash
    Arash,

    Thanks for taking the time to post what you saw.. given the 1dMkIII issues that surfaced, Canon has a lot riding on this cameras AF. I somehow just ended up with a 7D and find myself somewhat apprehensive about it. It has many nice features and my overall impression thus far is positive. That said, for me, the only reason I want this body is for its AF as compared to my 50D. The other features, while nice, are nothing I would pay the $1700 to upgrade for.

    I probably should read the nikon forums to see what issues anyone has had with the D700 AF. Just seems most report that it works and works well. To date most of my photography has been of smaller static birds ( i say static hesitantly because little birds move amazingly quick over very short distances ) though I have had a few occasions to track a mallard ( least try to ) and or a GBH that sometimes visits nearby. I want to do more with BIF though and thus the 7D.

    I never wanted to be an early adopter of this body. not sure what I did on Amazon but what i thought was email me when available became instant shipping. I'm also a bit peeved that my only good longer glass, my 100-400L, probbly will need to go in for repairs. I realize this lens is a jack of all trades lens and not at all a fast focusing lens... am at the point where I am planning for the 300 f2.8 and subsequently the 500 f4. But, before i do, want to make sure Canon is going the right direction.

    Seeing your posts does not give me warm fuzzies and I realize it is very early to judge the body. But i'd rather hear the issues and then pray Canon listens and finds a firmware fix. Other BIF photograpghers that are very trutworthy have foud issues with the 7D with BIF against busy backgrounds to the point I think it is an issue. if firmware fixable, no big deal in time. if not, it's a bit of egg on Canon's face for those wanting the body for improved servo performance. Thanks for posting and shwoing what other bodies were able to do under similar circumstances!

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