Moire on bird feathers - ever seen it?

[ericbowles]

I'm looking at a Nikon D800E for landscape, macro and wildlife photography. It meets my needs perfectly with one question - moire on feathers. I know that is the type area that can be a problem, but I'm trying to get some idea of how often the issue will truly come up. For context, moire will be more likely to occur in areas with fine patterned detail, with high resolution, at wide apertures. Moire can be addressed in post processing - especially using Capture NX2 which has a specific function designed to help handle moire. But if it is a real problem, you end up blurring the offending area of the image to remove moire.

I have a dedicated IR camera with the anti-aliasing filter removed. On this camera I have seen moire once out of 10,000+ images. The subject was a building and the shingles on the roof showed strong moire.

For my landscape work and most macro work, moire is a rare enough issue that the benefits of more detail are easily worth the risk of moire. For birds, it's a bit more of an issue.

Has anyone here ever seen moire in feathers on bird photographs? And if so, how often is it an issue? Is this a 1 in 10,000 issue or a 1 in 100 issue for birds with feather detail. Assume large prints.

[Alan Stankevitz]

I'm probably not answering your direct question since all the of cameras I use have anti-aliasing filters over the sensor and have never experienced it. I am curious about the D800E and how often this may occur. My guess is probably quite often since we're always striving for feather detail in birds. I'm also curious how well the Nikon software will address this issue. I had read that getting rid of moire in post-processing is not easy to do.

I have reviewed images from cameras that have had the anti-aliasing filter removed and the difference in resolution is not that great. I'm not so sure that I'd want to have to deal with tweaking images to get rid of moire and in doing so, reduce the resolution anyway.

If you get the D800E, please be sure to buy it from a reputable company if you decide to return it. And be sure to post your findings here on the board!

Alan
www.iwishicouldfly.com

[ericbowles]

Alan - thanks for your thoughts. The software removal function in Capture NX2 is very straight forward. Since CNX2 is already part of my workflow, it will be easy to integrate. I have tried to remove moire previously and it is a challenge, but it occurs so rarely to not be an issue.

I'm high on the list with a good dealer so if it is 1 in 50, I'll know the first day with the camera and immediately return it.

My current guess is moire will be rare and revealed most often on certain types of feathers with the sun at specific angles.

[Alan Stankevitz]

Have you seen this article on Nikon's website showing a comparison between the two D800 models? It's worth reading and viewing the samples:

http://www.nikonusa.com/Learn-And-Ex...lse-Color.html

[Alan Stankevitz]

Here's a post on DP Review regarding moire. There's an example in the thread of some grain silos taken with the Leica M9 camera. It's so full of moire, there's no way to fix the image w/o really degrading the image. Even Nikon's article leads me to believe that when moire is heavy, it's best to reshoot the image. Unfortunately, this is not an option when photographing live birds. Here's the link:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=40605447

Read the postings regarding: "Show me a method that works on this image..."

The D800E might be fine for landscape images, but I'm not so sure I'd be willing to spend time fixing bird feathers.

[ericbowles]

Alan - thanks for the links. The Nikon website and some other discussion about the images shared on DP Review prompted my post here. If I did not photograph birds, the decision seems pretty easy and a D800E would be my choice for what I shoot.

For the photographers who post here, the importance of performance with feathers is critical. An Anti-aliasing filter is a two edged sword - it gives up a little sharpness in the detail to avoid moire. I am comfortable that moire is not an issue with the AA filter. But I am not sure the extent of the issue without an AA filter, or in Nikon's implementation, with a countering filter to reduce and neutralize the AA filter.

Is anyone using a Leica M9 for bird photography and had problems with moire - or not had problems? Or has anyone photographed feathers in a studio and seen moire?

[arash_hazeghi]

some RAW samples from D800E have been posted here http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...hread=40902419

the samples have been taken from a subject that would show moire easily. It seems that Nikon's solution of cancelling the effects of AA filter is not quite the same as removing the filter (in the case of Leica). The difference between D800 and D800E is subtle and moire should not be an issue.

The D800 beats the Leica hands down BTW, even Nikon optics seem to to better than Leica's :D I guess the Leica owners are not happy.

[Doug Herr]

Has anyone here ever seen moire in feathers on bird photographs? And if so, how often is it an issue? Is this a 1 in 10,000 issue or a 1 in 100 issue for birds with feather detail. Assume large prints.

My camera has no AA filter (Leica DMR) and it's a 1-in-100 issue for most species. Quail (genus Callipepla, i.e., California Quail) have been the most troublesome, but I've seem moire in this bird's feathers when an AA-filtered camera was used too.

I suspect the D800E will have fewer problems with moire than I do because of the higher sampling rate.

[Michael Gerald-Yamasaki]

Has anyone here ever seen moire in feathers on bird photographs? And if so, how often is it an issue? Is this a 1 in 10,000 issue or a 1 in 100 issue for birds with feather detail. Assume large prints.

Eric,

Greetings. I've had difficulty understanding the attraction of going without the AA filter. While moire is discussed other color aberrations (one of the purposes of an AA filter is reduction of color aberrations along edges) are not. Here's a recent sample you might find of interest - color aliasing along high contrast edges:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=40925295

Example shows both non-AA effect and the improvement (not complete removal) with AA filter.
Hard to say if this would show up in feathers, but...

Cheers,

-Michael-