True bird photography vs "workshop photography" - your thoughts please...

[Dan Brown]

How can anyone really know if the circumstances surrounding a particular capture are not baited, staged, setup or anything else, unless someone video'ed the situation? I guess to satisfy the OP, we have to have a video of our capture moment to prove that it was "WILD AND REALLY HARD TO GET" to qualify for posting in AVIAN? I agree with Jay, all of these forums are for education, not a photo contest!!!

P.S. I am kinda sad to see this thread, as it seems to be a simple attempt to get under folks skin or get someone's goat. Just my 2 cents.

[Ofer Levy]

How can anyone really know if the circumstances surrounding a particular capture are not baited, staged, setup or anything else, unless someone video'ed the situation? I guess to satisfy the OP, we have to have a video of our capture moment to prove that it was "WILD AND REALLY HARD TO GET" to qualify for posting in AVIAN? I agree with Jay, all of these forums are for education, not a photo contest!!!

P.S. I am kinda sad to see this thread, as it seems to be a simple attempt to get under folks skin or get someone's goat. Just my 2 cents.

Hi Dan, not sure if you read the OP - doesn't look like it from your comment.
This discussion is about those workshops where everyone how just bought a nice camera can get a world class bird image as it was staged for him by a world class photographer. Nothing more and nothing less. I haven't mentioned, baiting, using of calls, setups etc which for me are all part of my work as a bird photographer.
Please read the original post again.
Thanks.

[adrian dancy]

Ofer

The title of this thread which you named and started is 'True Bird Photography vs Workshop Photography'

Some folk do not believe in baiting or the use of calls in bird photography. It may be their view that such photography is not 'True Bird Photography". So if you do bait, use calls or create set-ups then perhaps you should endorse your images to reflect that fact and so that they can ignore your images and move on. You should be aware that many camera clubs run competitions excluding 'The Hand of Man' in any image. You cannot remove the goal posts just to suit your argument. You planted the goal posts in the title of your thread so I'm afraid you are stuck with it!

Please define the meaning of 'True Bird Photography' (with full particulars) by stating what it is, as opposed to what it is not.

What ever your definition is of 'True Bird Photography' it does not change the fact that folk are allowed to post images of captive birds and other relevant facts indicating how an image was made and since you have agreed to abide by the terms and conditions of BPN I think that it is just a little rude for you adopt a standard reply which is condescending when those who have posted have complied and made disclosure.



AD

[Ofer Levy]

Adrian, I am not sure I understand why you seem to miss the point. I have posted a link to a video clip which clearly shows what for me is not bird photography.
Here it is again in case you can't find it in the OP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbf7AaNzSys
I think I have said enough on this thread.
Cheers!

[Cathy McEntee]

Ofer - I'd like to take issue with the comment "Posting them in the Eager to learn forum should be perfectly OK IMHO". I'm fairly new to bird photography, but the people that post in ETL truly want to learn to improve their skills. I have beautiful shots of waterfowl taken at a waterfowl sancturary, but I choose not to post them as I know they are fine, but it was not a challenge as I didn't have to find the birds or anticipate their behavior--they were sitting ducks. You may think ETL is not serious, but the images that are posted there were a challenge for most of us in some way and are usually not perfect, but they are images we are learning from (IMHO).

[Ofer Levy]

Ofer - I'd like to take issue with the comment "Posting them in the Eager to learn forum should be perfectly OK IMHO". I'm fairly new to bird photography, but the people that post in ETL truly want to learn to improve their skills. I have beautiful shots of waterfowl taken at a waterfowl sancturary, but I choose not to post them as I know they are fine, but it was not a challenge as I didn't have to find the birds or anticipate their behavior--they were sitting ducks. You may think ETL is not serious, but the images that are posted there were a challenge for most of us in some way and are usually not perfect, but they are images we are learning from (IMHO).

Cathy, first I would like to say there is not such thing as a perfect bird image. Even the best bird photos that I have seen are not perfect and obviously none of my photos is perfect. For me this is what makes bird photography so exciting, challenging and rewarding - you can always learn and improve. Posting images taken in such workshops like the one in the video on ETL looks fine to me not because ETL is an inferiour forum but because it is a forum for those who are starting out and might attend those workshops.
Hope this explains my attitude,
Cheers,
Ofer

[Mike Tracy]

Ofer, I regularly take photographers out on my boat, usually in search of Snail Kites which are only found within small areas in Fl. and usually only from a boat . Does my knowledge of where they are located, positioning my boat based on the prevailing winds and sun detract from my clients images authenticity according to your stance ?

[Roger Clark]

Please define the meaning of 'True Bird Photography' (with full particulars) by stating what it is, as opposed to what it is not.

Ofer,
Here is a stab at some categories. What is "True Bird Photography" in your opinion?

1) Wild and Free (no calls, no bait)
2) Wild, called
3) Wild, baited
4) Wild. called and baited
5) Sanctuary subject
6) Captive subject (e.g. zoo)
6a) Pets
7) Captive and controlled (e.g. tethered, or made to fly a route)

Where is the line for True Bird Photography? (Maybe we should do a poll.)
And perhaps ALL of the above should be disclosed when an image is posted.

Roger

[Jay Gould]

...
Hope this explains my attitude,
Cheers,
Ofer

Mate,

Are you kinda getting the message that you are A Man Without A Supporter?

Are you kinda getting the message that no one wants the Avian Forum or any Forum limited the way you suggest it should be?

Are you kinda getting the message that the mere suggestion by you that your time is so valuable compared to everyone else that you will not waste your time to even look at a C or a W image means that you have created a new membership category with one member? Category: Real Bird Photographers Who Do Not Waste Their Time Teaching Others Who Post Captured and Workshop Images In The Sacrosanct Avian Forum

Are you kinda getting the message that perhaps you blew it big time starting this thread in the contentious manner in which you did?

Hello!!

I think on this issue I can speak on behalf of the vast majority of the membership (perhaps the entire membership other than you):

WE are here to learn from everyone and, to the extent that we are able to assist and share our knowledge, we will do so with everyone regardless of the type or category of image posted.

This is on the bottom of EVERY page:

• BirdPhotographers.net - It Ain't Just Birds

BPN is about all areas of photography and pushing the envelope in all areas of photography.

And, you know what, it is going to stay that way and grow!

[Matt Fragale]

Hi Jay, here is my standard comment on every image of captive bird or one that was captured in a workshop where everything was setup and you just have to click:
I allow you to copy and paste it on every such photo and sign my name.

"This is a bird photography forum. This image is not considered to be bird photography IMHO. Once you get a photo of a bird in the wild without paying someone to do all the work for you - please let me know and I will give you my honest critique on your work."

Cheers mate,
Ofer

FYI, I'm still new here and still learning, but if you were to post this condescending comment on any of my photos, I would be sure to reply exactly in kind and let you know very precisely what I think of your attitude and I can tell you that it would not indicate a respect for your greater motivation.

Based on your attitude and comments in this thread, I think you've lost touch with reality. Not all people are as advanced in the craft of photography or naturalism as you are, Ofer. They have to learn somehow. So your attitude would be that they should just stomp around in the woods by themselves until they figure it out or pay for a guide to lead them before they even have the slightest clue about what makes a good bird photograph or how to track a bird in flight? That's patently ridiculous, and your comments so far are offensive to me as someone who is in the process of learning. You are a terrible ambassador for the bird photography community. Can you imagine how someone would feel if they came here for the first time and posted something they were proud of because they caught a bird in flight at one of those events that you consider so offensive and you posted that steaming pile in response? They would think everyone here was a complete [edited for politeness sake] and probably never return. Is this your goal? To be part of a group of elitist jerks that are unwilling to help those who are learning or do not or can not have the same level of commitment as you do? This is what I read when I signed up for membership here: "Birdphotographers.net (BPN) is an international nature photography discussion forum and e-zine focused on providing a fun learning experience through honest but gentle image critiques." Do you think your comment fits those criteria at all, Ofer?

Grr. Sorry for ranting. I was fine with leaving my contribution to this thread with my earlier more polite post until I saw this and I'm sorry if as a new person I have crossed the line. However I am not sorry for saying what I think needs to be said. I've enjoyed reading the critiques here and gained so much information and knowledge already. I hate to think what a terrible place this would become if there were more people with Ofer's attitude and less with Roger and Jay and Gail and James and others whose names I can't think of right now.

[Jay Gould]

Matt, I truly understand your emotions in reading this thread; I would have reacted the same in 2009 when I joined.

However, I think everyones' comments in this and all threads, not just critique threads, need to be "honest but gentle".

[Jay Gould]

Ofer, frankly, I think you owe the Membership an apology!

[Matt Fragale]

I agree, Jay, except when someone crosses that line on their own and chooses to be offensive as Ofer has. If he actually has posted that to anyone's photos for critique, he owes them an immediate apology and should be ashamed of himself. If he has not and only said it here to fan the flames, then I am sorry he deserves to be called out for that, as well. If that is the case and he is truly just a troll who happens to also shoot bird photos, then he is not the sort of person that I would choose to associate with at any level. Is there an ignore button on here somewhere?

[Dan Brown]

Hi Dan, not sure if you read the OP - doesn't look like it from your comment.
This discussion is about those workshops where everyone how just bought a nice camera can get a world class bird image as it was staged for him by a world class photographer. Nothing more and nothing less. I haven't mentioned, baiting, using of calls, setups etc which for me are all part of my work as a bird photographer.
Please read the original post again.
Thanks.

I guess you missed my point, Ofer. How do we know that our (your) images aren't on the up and up without a video? winkie,winkie! Maybe you had some workshoppie help? Sorry you don't approve of things.

[adrian dancy]

Ofer,
Here is a stab at some categories. What is "True Bird Photography" in your opinion?

1) Wild and Free (no calls, no bait)
2) Wild, called
3) Wild, baited
4) Wild. called and baited
5) Sanctuary subject
6) Captive subject (e.g. zoo)
6a) Pets
7) Captive and controlled (e.g. tethered, or made to fly a route)

Where is the line for True Bird Photography? (Maybe we should do a poll.)
And perhaps ALL of the above should be disclosed when an image is posted.



Roger

Roger

Sorry if it may seem silly but are you asking me or Ofer?

[adrian dancy]

Offer

You have thrown a lighted squib into the room and are jumping out because you don't like the bang and smoke.

You are failing to acknowledge that you have asked us to discuss 'True Bird Photography vs Workshop Photography'. It seems to me that there are two elements to discuss but you only wish express your views on one and at the risk of being exposed you have tried to limit your original intentions.

You have been asked at least twice to define what you mean by 'True Bird Photography' and failed. Roger has kindly put forward some suggestions but rest assured the list can be added to.

I think that you are at risk of alienting yourself. I do not wish to offend you but your attitude is most revealing. When you reach achievement then I suggest you spread a vail of humility over it and if you genuinely wish to serve others with good honest opnions (there is nothing more noble) then do so with grace and help others who may be less fortunate. I think that by adopting that position you will go further and your own work held in higher esteem. Just because folk have the money to attend a workshop does not mean they have other resourses such as health or whatever to do what you do. One day you will discover that you may have limitations. But for now let your own achievements be your own reward.

I live in an area where there is a lot of crime, I have retired early and money short, I have no garden or land to attract birds or car to take me to bird rich locations. I personally do not think there is great skill in sticking up a perch and filling a feeder to attract birds. I just don't see it as a major factor. If I erected a feeding station in my local woods the feeders would be stolen or trashed within hours and I would probably be mugged (two attempts made already!) I have tried to photograph dippers and have been shot at with air rifles and had large rocks thrown at me from a bridge. At times I have gone to exraordinary lengths to create images but isn't that just part of the fun? As I stated above, in my view, it's the click that counts. Taking account of light and subject behaviour is equally important for that single critical moment to be imaged, but even then it is not essential. Is it not the case also that at a lot of feeding stations and set ups participants are allowed to arrange the set ups, in other words artistic direction is in the hands of the photographer and what if you decided to bring your own perch? Within 20 yards of my flat there are some fantastic mossy knarled perches. Would you suppose I travel 50 miles on a bus with them and the rest of my gear just make my pics more legitimate so that you can comment?


I think it is time to eat humble pie and you will be deemed brave and respected for it. If you don't you will have left a very sad legacy.

Anyway Ofer...good wishes.

AD

[Sid Garige]

Ofer,

I have known your for a long time and IMO you are a great photographer and inspired me with many images. Even though I don't agree with some of your views, I respect you and your work and I would be honored to shake your hand and share a subject with you in the field. Hope this will be passing cloud and good luck.

-Sid

[dankearl]

I think sometimes on internet forums, the nuance of what someone is trying to say, gets lost in just reading typed words.
I also would like to say that Ofer has been more than helpful to me with his critiques and repost suggestions.
I look forward to more of his insight.

[Norm Dulak]

Although I understand that Ofer was referring to a specific kind of situation in his OP, I don't understand why he raised this issue and provoked what were inevitable comments.

I can envision situations where such workshops may be the only realistic opportunity for some who enjoy birds and photography but have limited access. If someone photographing a beautiful bird in a posed situation receives enjoyment he or she would not otherwise have, that is a good thing.

[Ofer Levy]

Sid and Dan, thank you for your kind words and support. You are both TRUE bird photographers. You've earned this title as you put into this great hobby all the hard work, time and effort needed. Your beautiful photos are your creation - nobody staged them for you and they speak for themselves. I have learned from both of you at least as much as you've learned from me - this is how it works between REAL bird photographers. This thread is mainly aimed for young people who are starting out now and my message to them is - don't follow the easy way. If you want to be real bird photographers have respect for this amazing hobby and put into it the work and dedication needed. Yes, you can get great shots if you pay a top notch bird photographer to do the work for you but then you will never be a true bird photographer but a bird photocopier.
Here is what I hope no young photographer who wants to become a real bird photographer should join as this is not the way to go. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbf7AaNzSys
Happy shooting to all,
Cheers,
Ofer

[Roger Clark]

Roger

Sorry if it may seem silly but are you asking me or Ofer?

Adrian,
I'm asking Ofer. You asked him to define true bird photography, and my intent posting under your was to ask the same question and to asl that he put the answer in context of some possibilities. Sorry for any confusion.

Roger

[Sid Garige]

Ofer,

To state my opinion, I personally dont see any thing wrong with workshops or photographing captive birds. I started with photographing birds in local zoo and rehab centers later on moved to wild birds. I guess that worked as a stepping stone in the process.

We all stated our opinion and based on our personal resources and objectives we all decide which path we are going to take. I think before it turns into something unpleasant I suggest we all take a chill pill and relax. :)

-Sid

[Jay Gould]

Ofer,

To state my opinion, I personally dont see any thing wrong with workshops or photographing captive birds. I started with photographing birds in local zoo and rehab centers later on moved to wild birds. I guess that worked as a stepping stone in the process.

We all stated our opinion and based on our personal resources and objectives we all decide which path we are going to take. I think before it turns into something unpleasant I suggest we all take a chill pill and relax. :)

-Sid

Sid, this goes beyond simply stating your own opinion and the path you are going to take. Ofer, has not only given his opinion about the workshop, he has actively said that beginners should not join a workshop that is provided by known excellent photographers, he has also said that looking at members images from those workshops are a waste of his time.

That is fine for Ofer; IM not so humble O, that is totally contradictory to the philosophy of BPN.

A REAL BIRD PHOTOGRAPHER with Ofer's well know credentials should start a forum with membership limited to persons that meet that his exceeding limited point of view.

[Sid Garige]

Jay,
We all are reasonable men with different opinions. I am half of your age and I am not going to tell you what you should do. If you say its beyond that then I respect that too.
I may be completely wrong but I feel like emotions are in driving seat and logic in passenger seat.

-Sid

[Matt Fragale]

Sid and Dan, thank you for your kind words and support. You are both TRUE bird photographers. You've earned this title as you put into this great hobby all the hard work, time and effort needed. Your beautiful photos are your creation - nobody staged them for you and they speak for themselves...

Interesting that you left out everyone who did not support you and also that you believe you are the arbiter of "true bird photography". I've thought quite a bit about this since earlier today when I was most offended and I have come to a conclusion. A picture of a bird is a picture of a bird. It is good or bad on its own merits regardless of who made it or how much mud they crawled in or didn't crawl in to get it. I think you're a very small-minded, insecure man who feels the need to exclude others from the very prestigious pedestal he has placed himself upon. Happily, I am not a "TRUE bird photographer".

[Don Lacy]

Sid, this goes beyond simply stating your own opinion and the path you are going to take. Ofer, has not only given his opinion about the workshop, he has actively said that beginners should not join a workshop that is provided by known excellent photographers, he has also said that looking at members images from those workshops are a waste of his time.

That is fine for Ofer; IM not so humble O, that is totally contradictory to the philosophy of BPN.

A REAL BIRD PHOTOGRAPHER with Ofer's well know credentials should start a forum with membership limited to persons that meet that his exceeding limited point of view.

I swore when Ofer posted this thread I would not comment on it (I was worn out form the Boundary Owl thread) but I think Ofer is well within his rights to state that he will not comment on staged images there are plenty of members here who will not comment on images they believe were obtained from baiting which is also well within their rights as far as I am concern. One more thing there is a huge differance between setups and staged images if setups were easy we would all have Alan Murphys and Ofers portfolios.

[dankearl]

Matt, as Sid said, it is time to take a chill on this.
I did not "support" Ofer, in fact, if you read my first response, I feel that the workshops are fine, if people enjoy them, that is fine with me.
I simply feel that Ofer is passionate about this, and that is his opinion.
i appreciate his photo advice, critiques and his expertise and that is my opinion.
If I was a Moderator, I would probably close this, not much more to be gained from the discussion, IMO.

[Sid Garige]

Dan,
Very well said.
We're Better Than This. I hope this is just a small set back in a long sail.
Lets not forget Captain's rule 25 - HAVE FUN!

[adrian dancy]

Dan

I don't think anything has been lost in typed words. I think Ofer's position is unambiguous. I don't think anyone denies Ofer's ability (technichally). What Ofer has done is start something off that he cannot handle because he is failing to recognise that others may place an even higher standard on their bird photography than he does. He has avoided defining what 'Real Bird Photography' is. He also fails to recognise that attending a workshop may be a good way of leading into what may be a very enjoyable hobby for those who wish to pursue it further and responsibly. I do not see an abundance of evidence that folk are passing off images from raptor workshops as wild images and it seems that Ofer has some insecurity here. I started off (in the film days, film being expensive) taking a furry toy and placing placing it in different positions in different lighting situations and learning the basics of aperture and exposure etc. If I could have attended a workshop or afforded one I would have entertained it as a possible legitimate way of developing camera skills. I developed field skills as a kid because I could not afford binoculars or a telescope.


I wholeheartedly disagree with Ofer that one should just go straight out into the field and start photographing wild birds without acquiring knowledge and camera skills and more importantly field skills, respect for the subject, ethics and the knowing the law as it might apply. One of the problems with forums is that there is so much emphasis on cameras, lenses and all the geeky stuff but little emphasis on general conduct in the field especially around nesting season. Many photographers new to bird photography simply do not know their subjects and their subject's sensitivities and I have seen some questionable behaviour born out of ignorance with my own eyes. I have seen images including some on BFN that have caused me to raise an eyebrow and at the risk of starting something off I have chosen not to comment, perhaps I should have.


Unless Ofer defines the meaning of 'True Bird Photography' then this discussion is meaningless IMHO.

[Roy Priest]

I think some should remember Wheaton's Law.

[adrian dancy]

Don, I don't think 'set ups' are in any way difficult to make, the skill level is achievable by a very young child...for many it is simply a question of resource. I can create a set up tonight but I can assure you it will be trashed by the following night.

[Ofer Levy]

Another thing to consider is that when anyone from the general public sees this video - he/she will think that this is how excellent shots are being made and obviously lose any respect to this wonderful hobby. This is very bad and unfair to all those true bird photographers who work so hard to do proper bird photography.

[Grady Weed]

I think it's time we all closed this thread and reflect on why we take images, why we post them, what we expect to gain from "debating" a thread such as this. What say we not post threads such as those that might lead to controversy, hurt feelings or discourage others. BPN is so much more than that. Most here are willing to learn, willing to share our skills with others and can do so without demeaning those whom we are trying to address as an audience.

I am sure we all have better things to do than debate this issue any further. Ofer has made his point and we have made our thoughts known. Time to let move on to the things we all enjoy!

[Matt Fragale]

I think some should remember Wheaton's Law.

YES! I'm fine with Ofer not commenting on anything he chooses not to. His reasons are his own and he is entitled. But when he said he was going to add his snarky comment about how the picture was not true bird photography whenever he saw a photo posted from a workshop type situation, that was what offended me. Everyone is definitely free to act with their own beliefs in mind as long as that doesn't include being outright rude to others as Ofer has suggested he will do or perhaps has done.

As suggested by others now, this debate is fairly pointless to continue.

[Roy Priest]

Matt, this wasn't directed at you. I'm on your side of the debate.

[Daniel Cadieux]

One of the great things about BPN is the passion that comes through about our shared hobby, and it shows very much in this thread. Thank you all for that. Having said this I believe it is time to move on as everything that needs to be said has been said...thread closed.

Now lets just go out and create great new bird images, whichever way that may be!