Manual vs Av and Other Modes

Ofer Levy · 04-20-2011, 06:37 AM

Attached Images

Ofer Levy · 04-20-2011, 06:23 PM

Thanks for your comments guys!
Melissa, here is the "secret" how I expose.... I simply NEVER expose AV or TV - only Manual. I always expose in a way that the brightest element in the image (particularly on the bird) is almost hot - in this case the white. You should have the highlight alert ON. Exposing manually with the histogram pushed as much as possible to the right without burning anything will result in the best possible image with the best signal to noise ratio, and the best colours. It may not look very nice in camera as it will be a bit bright but when opened in photoshop and adjusted a bit you will see the beauty of this technique. Don't relay on the camera to do this simple thing for you when you can do it so much better.
Just my 2 cents,
Cheers,Ofer
http://www.oferlevyphotography.com

**Melissa Groo** · 04-20-2011, 06:49 PM

Ofer, you confirm what I have been slowly absorbing from studying this web site--as well as others-- and books. I guess I have always been afraid to go Manual but I know that is how many of the best photogs shoot. When I went out with Shadle he had me shooting in Manual and I got excited about it, but then retreated to the safety of AV when I got home. I will try what you say, and see how it works for me. Thanks so much for your instruction and thoughtfulness.

**Arthur Morris** · 04-20-2011, 07:58 PM

Attached Images

Ofer Levy · 04-20-2011, 11:09 PM

Thank you all for the interesting discussion and comments.
This image was taken in early morning light when colours are "warm" so there is no point in trying to reproduce the "perfect white".
Artie, during all the years I have been doing bird photography (over 30 years now) I always used only manual exposure and never had any issues with getting the exposure right.
IMO there is absolutely no reason to go TV or AV in any circumstances.
As to the histogram you present - I am sure everyone with a calibrated monitor who looks at this image will agree that neck looks fine so I am not too worried about the histogram. Also keep in mind the feathers are socked with water which might cause what you see in the histogram. Having said that I always look at the histogram when I take the image to make sure nothing is clipped so I will have all the information to work with.
Cheers,
Ofer http://www.oferlevyphotography.com

**Arthur Morris** · 04-21-2011, 08:15 AM

As I said, there is lots of clipping in the JPEG as presented.

**Daniel Cadieux** · 04-21-2011, 08:43 AM

I use AV more than 80% of the time and never had any issues getting the right exposure either

. I do agree there are times for manual (and for some that is all the time and that is OK), but there is nothing "wrong" with AV either...

Fabulous low angle and I love the emerald eye and the slight tilt of the bill upwards. I prefer the blues of the water in Peter's repost.

**Arthur Morris** · 04-21-2011, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Daniel Cadieux

I use AV more than 80% of the time and never had any issues getting the right exposure either

. I do agree there are times for manual (and for some that is all the time and that is OK), but there is nothing "wrong" with AV either...

Fabulous low angle and I love the emerald eye and the slight tilt of the bill upwards. I prefer the blues of the water in Peter's repost.

The right exposure if of course the right exposure. The myth that real photographers should work in manual mode is just that, a myth. There are times as when the light on a subject might change five stops or more in a single instant. Folks working in manual mode at such times are dead in the water no matter how smart they are or think that they are :)

The above might make a good thread in General :)

Steven Kersting · 04-21-2011, 05:38 PM

My monitor is calibrated (color eye's pro). I see the whites as being a bit hot.
And I normally use aperture priority mode. Even if I go into manual mode because I want control of aperture and shutter speed my ISO is set to an "auto" range.

Ofer Levy · 04-21-2011, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Arthur Morris

The right exposure if of course the right exposure. The myth that real photographers should work in manual mode is just that, a myth. There are times as when the light on a subject might change five stops or more in a single instant. Folks working in manual mode at such times are dead in the water no matter how smart they are or think that they are :)

The above might make a good thread in General :)

Hi Artie,
Would love to hear about an example to when light on a subject changes 5 stop at once and the image is still worth taking....:2
In any case this is the exception when 99.999% of the time the light on the subject doesn't change that fast. Even when light changes - what is so complecated about taking one shot and then adjusting the exposure by looking at the image and histogram...?

Manual is the way not for what you call "real photographers" but to those who want to be excellent photographers and to really control their image...

**Roger Clark** · 04-21-2011, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Ofer Levy

Hi Artie,
Would love to hear about an example to when light on a subject changes 5 stop at once and the image is still worth taking....:2

Hi Ofer,
Saturday evening I was photographing birds at a rookery around sunset. With an approaching storm, there were a lot of small clouds around the sun. The light was nice, being an orange sunset (for over a half hour before the sun went below the horizon) but light levels changed by the second by many stops (I'll have to check my images to see how many). I had been working in manual, then switched to Av when light levels started varying fast. I see uses for both Av and manual. I never use Tv as I feel I can control my shutter speed with my choice of aperture and ISO. If I had to guess, I would say I use manual 2/3 to 3/4 of the time.

Roger

**Arthur Morris** · 04-21-2011, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Ofer Levy

Hi Artie,
Would love to hear about an example to when light on a subject changes 5 stop at once and the image is still worth taking....:2
In any case this is the exception when 99.999% of the time the light on the subject doesn't change that fast. Even when light changes - what is so complecated about taking one shot and then adjusting the exposure by looking at the image and histogram...?

Manual is the way not for what you call "real photographers" but to those who want to be excellent photographers and to really control their image...

Ofer you may be an excellent photographer but by having a close mind you are choosing to be stagnant. How's this real life situation: a gator grabs a Cattle Egret in bright sun. I dial in -1 and get some great shots. The gator slides under the boardwalk into the shadows. I go to 0 and get several more great shots. All of this happens in three seconds. If you were in manual mode you would have zero chance for the extra images in the shade. When I am walking with my lens and I do not know what to expect where I am always in Av mode.... It has saved me countless times. In the gator example the exposure difference was about 8 stops.... Too many clicks for the real photographers who work in Manual mode all the time. :) Like it or not....

Ofer Levy · 04-21-2011, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by Arthur Morris

Ofer you may be an excellent photographer but by having a close mind you are choosing to be stagnant. How's this real life situation: a gator grabs a Cattle Egret in bright sun. I dial in -1 and get some great shots. The gator slides under the boardwalk into the shadows. I go to 0 and get several more great shots. All of this happens in three seconds. If you were in manual mode you would have zero chance for the extra images in the shade. When I am walking with my lens and I do not know what to expect where I am always in Av mode.... It has saved me countless times. In the gator example the exposure difference was about 8 stops.... Too many clicks for the real photographers who work in Manual mode all the time. :) Like it or not....

Artie, there is no need to go into a psychological assessment of my personality only because I don't agree with your way of doing things...

As to the Gator and Cattle Egret scenario - please post some pictures in here so we can all learn.

In any case it takes me 1 or 2 seconds to change the settings and I am sure this won't kill the opportunity for me.

How many times in a photographer's life he/she is in a situation when such thing happen anyhow? On the other hand - how many times photographers got the exposure wrong when they relayed on the camera to do the job for them...?
If an experience photographer like Roger who uses manual exposure 2/3 of the time feels he needs to go AV – that is fine. However, if a less experienced photographer chooses AV or TV only because he thinks it is more reliable than Manual – this is wrong IMHO.
Having said that – everyone can do whatever he/she wants and enjoy life!
Happy shooting all!

Steven Kersting · 04-21-2011, 10:51 PM

Nothing is more "reliable" than manual mode. But the other modes can be just as reliable AND faster/easier as long as you are not dependent upon them. That's like saying spot metering is always better than matrix metering....You have to know when to use what and when the camera is going to lie to you. Do you always use an incident meter? Or using a fixed focus point is always better than dynamic.

If I set a fixed ISO and adjust desired aperture in Aperture priority the resulting SS is the same as I would have chosen (+/- comp) for the same exposure in full manual. Or if I set SS and a fixed ISO in S priority (Nikon) the aperture will be the same as if full manual.

I started when full manual was the only option, but things have changed a lot and I paid a lot for the capabilities of my camera. To not use those capabilities is silly.....to be dependent upon them is a mistake.

Personally, I have missed many shots because I could not react within the timeframe much less change settings, and I can change my camera's settings in the dark/ on the fly quite fluently. (two seconds can be a very long time)

No one mode is best...being in control is best.

Dan Avelon · 04-21-2011, 11:13 PM

excellent pose and details, It is sad to see a nice shot like this becomes a battle ground... whatever method has been used it has produced excellent results in this case...

**James Shadle** · 04-22-2011, 12:05 AM

Please stay on topic, this is a critique forum.

To further explore / debate exposure techniques, start a thread in our General Discussion Forum.

**Jim Neiger** · 04-22-2011, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by Arthur Morris

Ofer you may be an excellent photographer but by having a close mind you are choosing to be stagnant. How's this real life situation: a gator grabs a Cattle Egret in bright sun. I dial in -1 and get some great shots. The gator slides under the boardwalk into the shadows. I go to 0 and get several more great shots. All of this happens in three seconds. If you were in manual mode you would have zero chance for the extra images in the shade. When I am walking with my lens and I do not know what to expect where I am always in Av mode.... It has saved me countless times. In the gator example the exposure difference was about 8 stops.... Too many clicks for the real photographers who work in Manual mode all the time. :) Like it or not....

Artie,

The difference between Egret in bright sun and gator in shade under boardwalk is only 4 or 5 stops. I know this from my experiences at GL. I am like Ofer, manual mode all the time. When I get to a location, I will often take meter readings and determine what the extreme exposures are (full sun & darkest shade) This tells me where to go in the extremes. Everything else falls inbetween. This allows me to estimate the exposure very acurately. In your example I would have shot the Egret in full sun and trhen when they went into the dark shaded area, I would have gone about 12 clicks left (counterclockwise) on the shutter and/or aperture wheel, and then I would be ready to shoot again. This may not be as fast as AV mode in this case, but it is an unusual case. I can see where there are times AV mode would be a better choice, but I choose to use manual because I believe it is the best choice the vast majoprity of the time for bird photography.

Nice image, Ofer! I like the light, pose, and low angle. When you said you take the brightest element of the image as far to the right as possible, did you mean brightest element of the image or the brightest element of the subject? I usualy push the brightest element of the subject to the right and don't worry about the bg/fg. I may vary from this approach when elements in the bg/fg are important to the image and I don't want to over expose them. I think the flashing highlight alert is a more valuable tool for evaluating exposure in camera than the histogram is.

Ofer Levy · 04-22-2011, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by Jim Neiger

Artie,

The difference between Egret in bright sun and gator in shade under boardwalk is only 4 or 5 stops. I know this from my experiences at GL. I am like Ofer, manual mode all the time. When I get to a location, I will often take meter readings and determine what the extreme exposures are (full sun & darkest shade) This tells me where to go in the extremes. Everything else falls inbetween. This allows me to estimate the exposure very acurately. In your example I would have shot the Egret in full sun and trhen when they went into the dark shaded area, I would have gone about 12 clicks left (counterclockwise) on the shutter and/or aperture wheel, and then I would be ready to shoot again. This may not be as fast as AV mode in this case, but it is an unusual case. I can see where there are times AV mode would be a better choice, but I choose to use manual because I believe it is the best choice the vast majoprity of the time for bird photography.

Nice image, Ofer! I like the light, pose, and low angle. When you said you take the brightest element of the image as far to the right as possible, did you mean brightest element of the image or the brightest element of the subject? I usualy push the brightest element of the subject to the right and don't worry about the bg/fg. I may vary from this approach when elements in the bg/fg are important to the image and I don't want to over expose them. I think the flashing highlight alert is a more valuable tool for evaluating exposure in camera than the histogram is.

Hi Jim, I agree with everything you said.

I am of course mostly worried about the subject but will usually not take the shot if too much of the BG is hot.

I will repeat your very important point that flashing highlights alert is the most important tool to determine exposure.

Cheers!

**John Chardine** · 04-22-2011, 12:20 PM

Regarding the manual/automatic exposure mode sub-thread here I'll just give my experience. The majority of the time manual exposure mode works for me, I enjoy using it, figuring the exposure out, I learn more about exposure using manual, and the results are generally what I want. Having said this I have experienced times when auto exposure worked better. Example- shorebirds of various species including Sanderlings are feeding on a sandy beach. On the beach, there are piles of seaweed. The setting sun is behind me. Those who have shot Sanderlings in particular know that they hardly ever sit still. The birds were running along the tide line back and forth, and in and out of shadow cast by the piles of seaweed, and the direct warm light of a setting sun. Both lighting situations were good and I wanted to take advantage of both so I switched to auto with a little + compensation because the BG was bright, and I missed no opportunities. Had I stayed in manual I would have missed either the subject in shadow or the subject in warm sun.

I love the cormorant image. Because there is lots of detail in the whites of the neck I don't think it matters that much that some of the pixels are over the top. Plain white patches with no detail but << 255 look hot and blown much more than the neck of the bird here. It's the lack of detail as much as anything. I do see some yellow in the image but in the context of the time the image was taken, this is perfectly acceptable in my opinion.

**John Guastella** · 04-22-2011, 01:43 PM

The above might make a good thread in General :)

I would love to see this discussion continued in the General forum -- it would be very educational for advanced beginners, like myself. When I started shooting birds two years ago, I used Av exclusively and was frustrated because I ended with many poorly exposed images. I switched to using Manual and have never looked back.

I might suggest getting about two feet lower next time

And don't forget to bring your snorkel...

By the way, Ofer, beautiful image! WRT the color balance, I would like to see something between the original posted image and Peter's repost.

John

John

**Arthur Morris** · 04-22-2011, 02:02 PM

There is a myth about that real photographers work in Manual mode 100% of the time. I have found myself working in Manual more and more over the years, but I firmly believe that when you are out for a walk with your lens that by understanding exposure theory and working in Av mode you will be able to react to unforeseen situations far more quickly if you are in Av mode than if you are in Manual mode. And there are times when I want to be in Tv mode and even times when I want to be in Program (Yikes!) mode. I am going to try and copy some posts from the thread here now. We shall see if I am successful....

IAC, feel free to share your thoughts. Should competent photographers work in Manual mode 100% of the time?

Roman Kurywczak · 04-22-2011, 02:14 PM

Hmmmm......while I have seen many excellent photographers make images in AV mode........I have seen way to many misses to see a reason why to use it. If you are proficient in exposure as you want to use AV........then you should be totally proficient in manual. Another 100% manual mode all the time.

What is P

?

**Arthur Morris** · 04-22-2011, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Neiger

Artie,

The difference between Egret in bright sun and gator in shade under boardwalk is only 4 or 5 stops. I know this from my experiences at GL. I am like Ofer, manual mode all the time. When I get to a location, I will often take meter readings and determine what the extreme exposures are (full sun & darkest shade) This tells me where to go in the extremes. Everything else falls inbetween. This allows me to estimate the exposure very acurately. In your example I would have shot the Egret in full sun and trhen when they went into the dark shaded area, I would have gone about 12 clicks left (counterclockwise) on the shutter and/or aperture wheel, and then I would be ready to shoot again. This may not be as fast as AV mode in this case, but it is an unusual case. I can see where there are times AV mode would be a better choice, but I choose to use manual because I believe it is the best choice the vast majoprity of the time for bird photography.

Jim, I would agree that Manual mode is great most of the time. But there are times when Av is simply faster and better. In the gator situation the difference was 4 2/3 stops. And the two best frames in the series were created just 13/100 second apart. There was no time for 14 clicks. Sorry bud! BTW, 12 clicks would have burned the WHITEs.

**Arthur Morris** · 04-22-2011, 02:25 PM

Roman,

re:

Hmmmm......while I have seen many excellent photographers make images in AV mode........I have seen way too many misses to see a reason why to use it.

Misses are always a result of folks who do not understand exposure. Never a result of the mode that they are in. PERIOD. The right exposure is always the right exposure. Folks who fear using manual simply do not understand that the two are essentially the same: a way to get to the right EXP. If your analogue scale shows -1/3 stop in Manual mode it should show -1/3 in Av mode in the same light if the EXP is correct.

If you are proficient in exposure as you want to use AV........then you should be totally proficient in manual.

Agree.

Another 100% manual mode all the time.

The problem is that many in the "100% manual mode all the time" refuse to admit that in rapidly changing lighting or when you encounter unexpected lighting situations that Av is often best. If they choose to keep their heads in the sand I am fine with that but at least the newer folks can learn what is actually best.

What is P

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**Arthur Morris** · 04-22-2011, 02:26 PM

I will be posting the two gator images here when I get back from my massage :)

**Jim Neiger** · 04-22-2011, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Arthur Morris

Jim, I would agree that Manual mode is great most of the time. But there are times when Av is simply faster and better. In the gator situation the difference was 4 2/3 stops. And the two best frames in the series were created just 13/100 second apart. There was no time for 14 clicks. Sorry bud! BTW, 12 clicks would have burned the WHITEs.

I was pretty close though going from memory and experience. I knew it wasn't 8 stops. 12 or 14 are a lot of clicks to do quickly. I have had a situation where I didn't have time to count and I just spun the wheel hoping I had the right number of clicks. Turned out perfect, but I got lucky.

Were the two best frames the one where you switched from sun to shade? If not, my method with manual mode would have worked.

I agree that in some situations AV is more efficient, but those are few and far between and often unpredictable. I can't remember the last time my camera was in AV or any program mode.

Roman Kurywczak · 04-22-2011, 02:31 PM

Hey Artie,
I remember the gator 1 from a while ago......but you are saying you need to know your exposure to use AV and when......so this contradicts why you would teach someone AV first. I believe if you teach them manual mode first......they will understand exposure more quickly and then can choose the mode of their choice!
In general.....I don't care which mode you use.....only the final product! I can give you a scenario where while you were in AV mode while shooting.....you could have messed up the exposure......so the situation dictates the mode IMO.

**Steve Canuel** · 04-22-2011, 02:50 PM

http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...read.php/12555

Roman Kurywczak · 04-22-2011, 03:05 PM

Given the scenario in that thread........a bald eagle comes in......flies in and swoops the egret out of the water.....flies through the mangroves, egret dangling..... and into the sky right in front of you.......Q: Who got the exposure right? A: All of us in manual who exposed for whites, sun & wind at our back (like you taught us) as the bird flew off against the varied BG.

That happens more often in the field than the gator scenario IMO and I'll take my chances in M!

**Arthur Morris** · 04-22-2011, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Steve Canuel

http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...read.php/12555

Thanks Steve. I will post those two image after dinner.

**Charles Glatzer** · 04-22-2011, 05:37 PM

I will use whatever Priority Mode I deem best for the situation. But, most often 95% I am in Manual Mode. The problem as I have stated time and again is many do not understand that the METERING PATTERN DETERMINES EXPOSURE, while the PRIORITY MODE IS USED TO ADJUST THE VARIABLES. I will at times use Av in combination with AE LOCK. I find Av/Tv with EVAL to be inconsistent at best when subject size and tonal values relative to the background vary from shot to shot. Eliminating as many of the variables as possible is the key. I think if you want to learn metering, you should learn Manual first, not Av. Learn the fundamentals! Far to many using AV/Eval learn mostly how to make a dark image light and visa versa....without understanding or being taught(!) why and how meter patterns work in conjunction with priority modes. Same is true for seeing and understanding lighting ratios in the field.

Chas

**Desmond Chan** · 04-22-2011, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by Arthur Morris

Should competent photographers work in Manual mode 100% of the time?

No. I don't see the logic that they should.

Steven Kersting · 04-23-2011, 11:09 AM

IMO, exposure is always a balancing act and you almost always have to compromise somewhere.
Usually there is one aspect you care about more than the others.
I.e., there is sufficient illumination to get a correct exposure with sufficient SS at base ISO. In this case I may only care about controlling aperture for DOF and aperture priority will be the quickest/ most efficient mode to use.
In another case I may have to have a fast SS to freeze the action. In this case I would us S (Tv?) mode and set my ISO to auto within an acceptable range.
In the case where I care equally about aperture and SS I will go into manual mode, again with my ISO set to auto within an acceptable range.

Regardless of the mode I am in, I am not relying entirely on the metering system to get the exposure correct....to adjust for those variances I will use +/- exposure compensation.

In all cases I usually only need to make one adjustment to get the correct exposure with the requirements I need for the shot, and the resulting settings are the same as what I would have ended up with had I been in full manual.

I do a lot of "stalking" and as a result many of the shots I get are "grabs"...there simply is not the time for making multiple adjustments, sometimes there isn't even the time to get the camera on subject. If I were sitting in a blind with a fixed "scene" I could see using manual, but I don't need to so I probably wouldn't.

It's not about what mode you use, it's about being in control.

**Charles Glatzer** · 04-23-2011, 12:37 PM

Steve,

If you are in an Auto Priority Mode the exposure with comp applied is only accurate if the size of the subject and tonal values within the viewfinder remain the same. Change the composition by zooming in/out, go from horz to vert, shift the subject position in the viewfinder, and it may be a different ball game altogether. If the subject is in the same light there is no need to change exposure, thus Manual Mode. Why would you want to keep changing the compensation as you move the camera to maintain the same exposure? I would suggest you try using the AE Lock button in conjunction with Av. I do agree there are times if you are shooting subjects in rapidly changing light Av may be faster than trying to manually change an exposure variable. But, it not as simple as stating in Av I go -1 or +1 comp unless you know ahead of time exactly what the tonal values are going to be within the field of view. With either method the key is to be Pro-Active, checking the exposure ahead of time for both sun and shade before the decisive moment occurs. A bit of forethought goes a long way.

Artie stated "When I am walking with my lens and I do not know what to expect where I am always in Av mode..." Many times I will do the same in complex lighting, but I consider it more a Hail Mary than a prescribed methodology. Something better than nothing most times, once in a while you get lucky.

With Manual Priority you make the same cognitive decision you would in Av Priority, that is to set the aperture first into the camera. Thereafter...in Av the camera will set the shutter speed and you add compensation to derive at the correct exposure for the scene as viewed. In Manual you adjust the shutter-speed adding in more or less exposure to derive at the correct exposure. Both methods require that you turn a wheel, shutter speed in Manual, comp in Av.

I cannot state this enough... if a photographer wants to consistently derive and maintain proper exposure it is imperative they have a firm understanding of how Metering Patterns and Priority Modes work in conjunction. Shameless plug ... just ask the hundreds who have taken the STL Tech Series and transformed their photography.

Warm Regards,

Chas

Roman Kurywczak · 04-23-2011, 01:53 PM

Great addition Chas......and I agree 100% Metering modes and priority modes go hand in hand.

**Desmond Chan** · 04-23-2011, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Charles Glatzer

With either method the key is to be Pro-Active, checking the exposure ahead of time for both sun and shade before the decisive moment occurs. A bit of forethought goes a long way.

Hear, hear !

I think most of the time it's only those who use manual exposure mode who do that. Those who use auto-exposure modes they somehow don't think they need to.

With Manual Priority you make the same cognitive decision you would in Av Priority, that is to set the aperture first into the camera. Thereafter...in Av the camera will set the shutter speed and you add compensation to derive at the correct exposure for the scene as viewed. In Manual you adjust the shutter-speed adding in more or less exposure to derive at the correct exposure. Both methods require that you turn a wheel, shutter speed in Manual, comp in Av.

BINGO !!

It's amazing that so many people cannot see that. And hence my answer to the question: "Should competent photographers work in Manual mode 100% of the time?"

**Don Lacy** · 04-23-2011, 04:33 PM

The myth that real photographers should work in manual mode is just that, a myth.

I agree with Artie in part with this statement real photographers can and do work in the mode that best fits the situation they are photographing in. The reason being they understand what the camera is doing in each mode and understand how to make the needed adjustment to achieve their vision.
The problem with beginners is that they often do not understand why the camera is choosing the values it is choosing and blindly hit the shutter button trusting the camera to get it right which it does often enough to keep them using it. I am still amazed why so many people find having to turn one more wheel on their camera to be so challenging or having to add one more thought process before hitting the shutter so daunting. I believe once you master shooting in manual you will be in a better situation to fully exploit the other modes when you decide to use them and be a better photographer for it.

**Charles Glatzer** · 04-23-2011, 04:43 PM

Desmond,

"Should competent photographers work in Manual mode 100% of the time?"

A competent photographer will have the wherewithal to make an informed decision regarding which Mode, and Pattern or Method to use according to the task at hand.

I was photographing penguins in the Falkland's under partly cloudy skies late in the day. Normally I would only shoot the subject in whatever light I deemed best. Why waste my time shooting images I know to be mediocre. However, as this was late in the day the light was already partially diffused, with the cloud cover effecting more the overall quantity than the quality of light. I set the PATTERN to Spot, the Mode to AV, dialing in + 2EV COMP. The rational is as follows.... Spot Pattern plus 2EV off the penguins white chest maintained white with detail throughout for my chosen f/stop (Av). Av and Spot (+ comp) allowed me to quickly nail the changing exposure. The key was I depressed the AE Lock button after metering to maintain the correct exposure when recomposing for the desired image. The downside being I had to re-meter off the chest every time the firing burst ended. Had the light been consistent I would have stayed in Manual mode. BTW- I metered off a penguin close by me to fill the spot pattern completely with a known tonal value, while the actual images were being taken of penguins coming up in the surf some 50 feet away, wink.

Knowledge is power. If you learn Manual Mode first ...you will become a better photographer.

Ever wonder why so many in the forums now shoot Manual Mode as opposed to Av, I know, wink.

I really do need to finish my book and instructional series!

Chas

Steven Kersting · 04-23-2011, 06:24 PM

Chas,
In aperture priority I often don't have to change anything for a rapid shot. I use exposure compensation when I know a scene is heavily biased and the metering mode selected will be fooled.

I do agree metering mode plays a huge part, but that was not part of the discussion. Regardless of what functional mode you are in, the metering mode chosen will be a significant factor. I'm often in matrix mode with the function button set to spot. Simply press the function button and my metering mode changes.

In AV mode, I happen upon a scene with a cluttered BG, I open up the aperture and the rest is done for me, one adjustment. In manual mode, you happen upon the same scene and open aperture, then you have to adjust SS or ISO, two adjustments.

Same is true if I'm in SS mode. I slow the SS to open the aperture, one adjustment.

If you are in full manual, yes you can change one setting for variables of exposure, but you cannot change one setting for variability of scene and subject. The other modes let you decide what you care about most and adjust for both exposure and scene with one adjustment. Manual is great if you are going to set up *only* for optimum aperture and ISO..then a quick change of SS to adjust exposure is what is needed. Or ISO and SS, then a quick adjustment of aperture for the exposure change is all that is needed. But that is identical to being in Av/Tv (A/S) mode.

I'm often in manual mode, but when *I* use manual mode my ISO is set to auto within a tolerable range. Then I select which matters more for the scene and adjust only that...if time permits, maybe both SS and aperture. But I still don't consider that full manual because my ISO is set to an auto range.

For me, the way I use manual mode, it's like being is A/S modes at the same time....and with my Nikon i have one dial under my thumb and one under my middle finger to adjust at an instants notice (and a button under my ring finger to change metering modes). This is significantly different than almost 30 yrs. ago when I learned "full manual".

As I said, it's not about what mode you are in, it's about being in control. I've even used "variable program" mode on the rare occasion. To be honest, I would LOVE this mode if the camera logic was better.

Roman Kurywczak · 04-23-2011, 09:21 PM

OK Steven.....I'll bite.......what exactly was your answer???....and why in your opinion is Chas's response off topic/not relavent? If your camera meters a tonally changing BG.......the metering, and how much of the frame your subject fills plays a huge part!

**Roger Clark** · 04-23-2011, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by Charles Glatzer

With Manual Priority you make the same cognitive decision you would in Av Priority, that is to set the aperture first into the camera. Thereafter...in Av the camera will set the shutter speed and you add compensation to derive at the correct exposure for the scene as viewed. In Manual you adjust the shutter-speed adding in more or less exposure to derive at the correct exposure. Both methods require that you turn a wheel, shutter speed in Manual, comp in Av.

Chas,
But there are conditions with changing light and with Av, one needs to only set compensation once and then can frame away with widely changing lighting conditions. For example, say you are photographing two birds interacting and you want to record that interaction. But there are many small clouds which constantly float in front of the sun, partially or fully moving in front of the sun. With Av, one can find the compensation that gives great exposure and then record the interaction while the light varies by many stops without fiddling further with wheels and settings. Thus, one can concentrate on the subject and not on dialing in the exposure.

Just like with most things in life, there is no one thing that works best for all situations, including Av, manual, or other exposure methods.

Roger

**Desmond Chan** · 04-23-2011, 10:34 PM

Hey Steven:

Originally Posted by Steven Kersting

I use exposure compensation when I know a scene is heavily biased and the metering mode selected will be fooled.

And in manual exposure mode, you compensate by actually changing ISO, aperture, shutter speed, or a combination of them, directly yourself. It's just another button like that exposure compensation button (which tells the camera to change the ISO, aperture, shutter speed for you depending on which auto exposure mode you use).

In AV mode, I happen upon a scene with a cluttered BG, I open up the aperture and the rest is done for me, one adjustment. In manual mode, you happen upon the same scene and open aperture, then you have to adjust SS or ISO, two adjustments

If you want to change the aperture in order to change the depth-of-field? Yes, then the shutter speed or ISO, or a combination of both, needs to be changed, too, if the brightness of the scene change. Otherwise, if you want to change the exposure, you only need to adjust the shutter speed IF you want to maintain the same depth of field and ISO. I don't see how a cluttered background would require me to change the aperture AND the shutter speed for it.

If you are in full manual, yes you can change one setting for variables of exposure, but you cannot change one setting for variability of scene and subject.

Yes, you can (and see above). Photographers have been doing it since the beginning of photography.

Manual is great if you are going to set up *only* for optimum aperture and ISO

Hmmm?

then a quick change of SS to adjust exposure is what is needed. Or ISO and SS, then a quick adjustment of aperture for the exposure change is all that is needed. But that is identical to being in Av/Tv (A/S) mode.

Yes, and that is the whole point and why using manual exposure mode does not mean you a better photographer or know exposure better IMO.

I'm often in manual mode, but when *I* use manual mode my ISO is set to auto within a tolerable range. [snip] But I still don't consider that full manual because my ISO is set to an auto range.

You are absolutely correct on that

For me, the way I use manual mode, it's like being is A/S modes at the same time... This is significantly different than almost 30 yrs. ago when I learned "full manual"

Because you are not using manual exposure mode

Just because there's a M appearing on some screen on your camera does not mean you are actually using manual exposure mode

**Charles Glatzer** · 04-23-2011, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Steven Kersting

Chas,
In aperture priority I often don't have have to change anything for a rapid shot. I use exposure compensation when I know a scene is heavily biased and the metering mode selected will be fooled.

If the tonal values within the field of view remain unchanging you are correct, but this is more the exception. If the tonality varies within the frame as you track a moving subject it will more than likely require you to adjust compensation. Do not forget Matrix is applying its own degree of compensation based on predetermined algorithms. And, Matrix is in fact more accurate in most instances than Evaluative. The Meter Priority (mode) cannot be fooled. And, a Metering Pattern only does what it is programed to do.

I do agree metering mode plays a huge part, but that was not part of the discussion. Regardless of what functional mode you are in, the metering mode chosen will be a significant factor.

This is confusing? How is a Metering Mode not a part of a discussion on rendering proper in-camera exposure?

I'm often in matrix mode with the function button set to spot. Simply press the function button and my metering mode changes.

OK

In AV mode, I happen upon a scene with a cluttered BG, I open up the aperture and the rest is done for me, one adjustment. In manual mode, you happen upon the same scene and open aperture, then you have to adjust SS or ISO, two adjustments.

A cluttered background has nothing to do with how a Meter Pattern renders exposure. The background may in fact be busy, but it is only the tonality and contrast that influence the meter pattern. And, a bit of color, perhaps. Why would I have to change ISO in Manual and not Av?

Same is true if I'm in SS mode. I slow the SS to open the aperture, one adjustment.

If your chosen shutter-speed requires the lens to be open greater than maximum aperture to render the correct exposure the resultant image will be under-exposed, unless you dial in more comp or change the ISO manually or have the camera do it automatically.

If you are in full manual, yes you can change one setting for variables of exposure, but you cannot change one setting for variability of scene and subject.

What?

The other modes let you decide what you care about most and adjust for both exposure and scene with one adjustment.

Again, What?

Manual is great if you are going to set up *only* for optimum aperture and ISO..then a quick change of SS to adjust exposure is what is needed. Or ISO and SS, then a quick adjustment of aperture for the exposure change is all that is needed. But that is identical to being in Av/Tv (A/S) mode.

I cannot follow the logic.

I'm often in manual mode, but when *I* use manual mode my ISO is set to auto within a tolerable range. Then I select which matters more for the scene and adjust only that...if time permits, maybe both SS and aperture. But I still don't consider that full manual because my ISO is set to an auto range.

Correct. But, I have no need for Auto ISO at all.

For me, the way I use manual mode, it's like being is A/S modes at the same time....and with my Nikon i have one dial under my thumb and one under my middle finger to adjust at an instants notice (and a button under my ring finger to change metering modes). This is significantly different than almost 30 yrs. ago when I learned "full manual".

As I said, it's not about what mode you are in, it's about being in control. I've even used "variable program" mode on the rare occasion. To be honest, I would LOVE this mode if the camera logic was better.

The camera logic is what it is. Understanding how and why it does what it does is the key. Respectfully, it sounds to me like your exposure workflow logic is flawed. Yes, it is all about what Mode you are in, along with the Patten in use.

Chas

**Bob Decker** · 04-24-2011, 08:19 AM

Reminds me of arguements I used to hear when auto-focus cameras first appeared: "Real (pro, serious, quality, discriptive of your choice) photographers don't use auto-focus." Of course along with technological advances came the same arguements about exposure modes, ttl flash, digital vs film. Then there's the endless diatribes about why Canon kicks Nikon's butt... and vice versa! It seems there's always a healthy supply of folks that believe that their way is the "best" way or even "only" way. Any other application of technology is somehow ametuerish and inferior. The simple fact is, always has been and always will be, the end viewer... whether a fine art buyer, a photo editor or just a casual looker... isn't going to care what mode an image was shot in. Results are what matters. How you got them isn't as important as the fact you were able to get them. Being proficient is a matter of getting those results consitently, not what mode was used.

All that said, I would tned to believe that teaching exposure is better accomplished by having a student shoot in manual mode. It provides very specific feedback on how aperature, shutter speed and iso affect the final image. But once one understands the priciples of exposure I cannot see anything wrong with using the tools provided by technology to create interesting, compelling images. After all, I'd like to think it's the artist... the brains using the camera if you will... not the camera that's resposible for making wonderful images.

Steven Kersting · 04-24-2011, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Roman Kurywczak

OK Steven.....I'll bite.......what exactly was your answer???....and why in your opinion is Chas's response off topic/not relavent? If your camera meters a tonally changing BG.......the metering, and how much of the frame your subject fills plays a huge part!

My response is it doesn't matter what mode is used, manual is no better than any other. And that metering mode is a different topic entirely and has no direct influence on which functional mode you choose.

Steven Kersting · 04-24-2011, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Desmond Chan

Hey Steven:

I don't see how a cluttered background would require me to change the aperture AND the shutter speed for it.

Because if the lighting is the same just changing the aperture (opening it one would presume given the scenario) would result in a bad exposure/overexposure.

I gather that we agree that manual mode is not "better". If not, ok, we don't.

All I can say is I know almost no one who's been in photography for a long time that uses manual mode exclusively. I do know a couple who work with static subjects (studio) and a couple who learned manual mode back when it was the only option and never really got comfortable with the "new technology".

I hear a lot of advanced amateurs touting manual mode as "the only way to be in complete control" and "professional". But I think that's because they don't understand what choices their camera will make "for them" in the other modes.

Like I said, it doesn't matter what mode you are in as long as you are in control. It is fine (often faster and easier) to let the camera "decide for you" as long as you agree with the choices it makes. If you know what choices the camera will make in the different modes then using them makes life easier.

**WIlliam Maroldo** · 04-24-2011, 10:07 AM

If you use any "auto" mode you are giving up control to the camera. Period. This seems obvious.

Auto is strictly for convenience, and though faster(which computers have the edge over use humans), much more likely to make errors. This is because there is no way a camera can be "programmed" with all the relevant information needed for the proper exposure for any particular scene. It doesn't know what is most important or what the photographer wants as the focal point, it can't tell what is the foreground or background and incessantly tries to average everything out. It doesn't know that light reflects off different material differently and this effects exposure. It doesn't even know that dark materials need more exposure and light materials need less. It is so stupid in that area you have to waste time figuring what exposure compensation to use. And you are supposed to constantly monitor it to check for errors? And you want to let it make exposure decisions on a shot that you might or might not ever get again?
I think not!
Manual exposure is so simple; expose to the right to the point of highlight clipping, that a histogram and clipping indicators make a meter, with all its errors, obsolete.
I also wonder, for those people that swear by auto modes, what keeper rate they have? For one that for years used them, I know that my keeper rate in manual is much higher.
This being said, under very rapidly changing lighting conditions I use aperture priority, all other times manual. This is because a series of images with errors(where some might not be too severe and by chance correct) is better than no series at all since my fingers on the thumbwheels are too slow.
regards~Bill

**Charles Glatzer** · 04-24-2011, 10:09 AM

Bob,

Certainly the end justifies the means, and I am not stating one overall method is better than an other. What I am saying is that one needs to comprehend how it all works together to be able to make an informed decision in a given circumstance. If someone chooses to stick to what works for them so be it, but if you want to grow I would think an open mine is necessary. I am always willing to learn something from others, and I do every time I teach and go afield. For me it is more about the process than the image itself. I love the problem solving aspect of photography. I have been at this for 28 years now, starting with Hasselblad's, Leica's, Nikon F, 4x5 cameras all without built-in meters, forcing me to learn reference values, relationships, ratios, incident, and more. Today many rely on the auto this auto that features. Many using Auto from the get-go do not develop the fundamental knowledge in metering, lighting, and more to be consistently successful in their image making. And, many of those now teaching and shooting were weened on Auto methods. How many now buy a first camera a fixed lens, none! How many of those purchasing zooms as their first lens learn to use that lens other than a cropping tool. Lenses alter perspective, picking the right tool for the job is part of the creative process. See the image in your mind first...then pick and choose the right equipment to capture your vision. This includes choosing the f/stop and shutter speed before depressing the shutter. If you cannot obtain the combination desired do to insufficient quantity of illumination on the subject, raise or lower the ISO until you can do so. Same process every time!!!! Many think Auto Priority Modes are easier, they are not. But, if that is what you or anyone else is comfortable with so be it. I can only lead the horse to water. And, there are many ponds to drink from.

If you have followed my postings in forums over the last 11 years you would see i do not care what method people use, be it mine or someone else. However, I do care that they understand how and why an image comes out the way it does with the method they choose. I only offer options...another "crayon in the box" if you will. I say without doubt a huge percentage of those I have taught over the years , including pros and amateurs, do not fully comprehend metering. Sure they get good images, but their hit rate could be vastly improved.

Good image making to all,

Chas

**Charles Glatzer** · 04-24-2011, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by WIlliam Maroldo

If you use any "auto" mode you are giving up control to the camera. Period. This seems obvious.

Auto is strictly for convenience, and though faster(which computers have the edge over use humans), much more likely to make errors. This is because there is no way a camera can be "programmed" with all the relevant information needed for the proper exposure for any particular scene. It doesn't know what is most important or what the photographer wants as the focal point, it can't tell what is the foreground or background and incessantly tries to average everything out. It doesn't know that light reflects off different material differently and this effects exposure. It doesn't even know that dark materials need more exposure and light materials need less. It is so stupid in that area you have to waste time figuring what exposure compensation to use. And you are supposed to constantly monitor it to check for errors? And you want to let it make exposure decisions on a shot that you might or might not ever get again?
I think not!
Manual exposure is so simple; expose to the right to the point of highlight clipping, that a histogram and clipping indicators make a meter, with all its errors, obsolete.
I also wonder, for those people that swear by auto modes, what keeper rate they have? For one that for years used them, I know that my keeper rate in manual is much higher.
This being said, under very rapidly changing lighting conditions I use aperture priority, all other times manual. This is because a series of images with errors(where some might not be too severe and by chance correct) is better than no series at all.
regards~Bill

Bingo!

Chas

**Charles Glatzer** · 04-24-2011, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Roger Clark

Chas,
But there are conditions with changing light and with Av, one needs to only set compensation once and then can frame away with widely changing lighting conditions. For example, say you are photographing two birds interacting and you want to record that interaction. But there are many small clouds which constantly float in front of the sun, partially or fully moving in front of the sun. With Av, one can find the compensation that gives great exposure and then record the interaction while the light varies by many stops without fiddling further with wheels and settings. Thus, one can concentrate on the subject and not on dialing in the exposure.

Just like with most things in life, there is no one thing that works best for all situations,
including Av, manual, or other exposure methods.

Roger

Roger,

No doubt. But, that assumes the tonal values in the field of view remain fairly constant.
As you know Matrix and Evaluate are applying thir own comp in addition to what you apply, sometimes it will do a good job of maintaing exposure when tracking a subject. I am less of a gambler, preferring the higher odds based on my knowledge rather than predetermined algorithms chosen by another. For me Auto induces more variables, not less.

Best,

Chas

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