Baltimore Oriole, first try at manual
Canon 40D
Canon 70-200 at 180
1/250"
F7.1
ISO 400
EC 0.0
Flash
Here is my first attempt at using manual and flash. This was early morning, in the woods so the light was very low. I don't like the background, but don't know how to improve it either with camera settings or in post processing.
I like the pose and motion in the oriole, but the background stinks. Is there a way to fix it????:confused:
this is the image as from the camera.
Is there a way to save it?
Hi Cheryl- I think you did a nice job in post-processing. You removed the "steel-eye", and brightened up the subject. The image out of the camera is cropped more than the OP so it can't be exactly out of the camera! I think the BG is actually quite good- plain and not distracting. The pose is a bit problematic because it is a classic flash-startle pose, which you often get when flash is used in a darkish environment. I think there is a general preference for images of subjects that are not obviously being affected by you the photographer.
For fun I removed the leaves and recropped just to see how it looked. The crop places the eye close to one of the Rule of Thirds intersections. Maybe the bird is a bit tight now? I think the leaves added a nice splash of colour but ideally they would not be cut off at the frame edge.
Last edited by John Chardine; 10-05-2010 at 08:52 AM.
John, yes, you are right, it is not right from the camera. I did crop off some "junk" in the original. (ie the food tray with the jelly in it. lol) My second post is cropped but not adjusted in anyway. When you say the BG is good, are you referring to the original or the adjusted? I would have preferred the leaves too, but the bright red jelly dish was in front of one leaf, and the second leaf was behind the railing.
as for the startled pose, I do have images of orioles just perching. do you think that pose is more interesting or "better"?
Thank you very much for your help, John!
Hi Cheryl. What is it that you don't like about the background? I think the homogeneous brown BG complements the colors of the bird.
I find the brown background boring, dull, and not typical of a daytime bird.
but other than that. It's fine. lol
Cheryl
It is a good photo. I don't know much at all about flash but what you needed to do to get a more visible background is to just use fill flash. You expose for the background and let the flash fill in the main subject. Here is an article that can explain it much better than I.
http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/control...&articleID=106
Bill
What a beauty! I haven't had any orioles at my feeder for a few months now and I miss them!
I think the BG is fine - especially with John's clean up repost. I don't mind the motion blur of the wings but am not sure I love the tail as much. I think you've made the most of it - and if you really want to replace the entire BG you could...but I also think it compliments the bird.
Julie, thanks! this is a photo from mid summer. Mine have left long ago too. But it took this long to steel myself up to submitting it. lol ( I know, I know. I remember what you told me earlier about that. :D )
I too like the motion in the wings, but not the tail. I have many images of the orioles perched. I'll try those next.
HI Cheryl - lots to like here - IMHO, I dont mind the BG at all - Johns repost does improve it.
Manual flash is not all that hard - just remember about your high speed sync.
Looking forward to seeing more :)
Thanks, Lance,
do you know of a basic tutorial for high speed sync flash? I am (obviously) having trouble figuring it out.
Hi Cheryl - pretty sure there is something in the educational resources forum.Originally Posted by Cheryl Flory
Basically...
HSS allows your flash to sync at over 1/250th - BUT for every stop over 1/250th you loose 1 stop of flash output power. So at very high SS the flash range is greatly reduced.
also unless using flash as main light - your ambient exposure should be correct before adding the flash - in other words if the flash does not fire your exposure should still be correct.
In manual mode (Flash) - things are different in TTL Modes!
Shutter speed controls the ambient exposure
Flash exposure is controlled by 4 things (Often only 1 is referred to - but technically it is 4)
Aperture
ISO
Distance from light source
Power of light source
A better beamer is supposed to add about 3 stops of flash range so gives a bit of room for some movement with the HSS.
IMHO - Ideally you want a image that looks natural - just about cannot tell that flash has been used.
When I first started using flash - I worked with a stationary subject - got the ambient exposure correct by taking a couple of shots - then turned the flash on and adjusted it as required.
Thanks, Lance!!!
I appreciate it.
As far as I know, unless the high speed sync has to be used with flash in manual mode, otherwise, you can leave the flash in auto/TTL and still can adjust its power to get the results you want. My understanding is in TTL mode, the flash light does not use its own sensor to cut the light output but rather use that of the camera, hence through-the-lens. Usually, when I use flash, I leave the flash in TTL mode/Balance (or something like that) and the camera, as usual, in manual mode.
It's a good first try, Cheryl ! Personally I may choose not to crop as much as John did but still cloned out the leaves. I may even tone down the brightness of the branches, too.
Last edited by Desmond Chan; 10-06-2010 at 01:12 AM.
Lance has it. H-synch is available in manual and E-TTL flash modes.
Canon's H-synch (FP synch in the Nikon world) works in both E-TTL and manual modes. The reason you get a reduction in flash power with H-synch is that the flash has to make separate smaller flashes as the focal plane shutter's first and second curtains move across the sensor. At shutter speeds higher than the synch speed of your body (often 1/250s or 1/300s), the second curtain starts its run before the first curtain has reached the other side. Thus there is no one time when the whole sensor is exposed to light from the lens (and therefore when just one flash would do). As you raise your shutter speed, the second shutter curtain starts its run with a shorter and shorter delay behind the first curtain, thus exposing less of the sensor at any one time. In H-synch, the flash has to make more flashes as the shutter speed increases, thus flash output declines, as Lance explained.
There is an important difference between E-TTL and manual flash modes on the Canon side at least. In E-TTL mode Canon reduces flash output to balance ambient light better. This occurs even when you have no flash exposure compensation set. To my knowledge Canon has not published the amount of flash output reduction. In manual flash mode, you get exactly the power you dial in to the flash so at 1/1 you get full power with no intervention from Canon engineers! When I am flash output limited either because I am using H-synch with high shutter speed, or I am a long way from the subject I shift to manual flash mode to get the most light I can out of the flash. Apparently Nikon does not do this.
One other point to mention is that the flash varies its output by changing the duration of the flash. When photographers need to stop very fast action like hummingbird wings or water drips they use a very reduced flash output in manual mode, say 1/64 of full power, and use flash as the main light source. At this amount of flash output reduction the exposure times are in the region of 1/30,000s (please correct if this is off the mark) and your ability to stop fast action is very powerful indeed.
Last edited by John Chardine; 10-06-2010 at 06:38 AM.
Wow! the members on this list are fantastic!!
So much information! Thank you, very much!
As most of this is above my head, I have my work cut out to learn this too.
Thank you, everyone, for your time and help!
[QUOTE=John Chardine;575932]John, could you elaborate on "Apparently Nikon does not do this"? If I understand what you said correctly and based on my understanding of using flash lights (regardless of brands), I'm not sure what it is in your opinion and experiences that Nikon does not do.[snip]
There is an important difference between E-TTL and manual flash modes on the Canon side at least. In E-TTL mode Canon reduces flash output to balance ambient light better. This occurs even when you have no flash exposure compensation set. [snip] In manual flash mode, you get exactly the power you dial in to the flash so at 1/1 you get full power with no intervention from Canon engineers! When I am flash output limited either because I am using H-synch with high shutter speed, or I am a long way from the subject I shift to manual flash mode to get the most light I can out of the flash. Apparently Nikon does not do this.
Desmond- My understanding after reading several articles on this over the years is that at 0 flash exposure compensation in TTL mode, Nikon flashes give full output appropriate to the given lighting situation. In other words they do not hold light back, and leave it up to you to dial in the exposure compensation you need for fill flash. In film days I remember always running my Nikon flashes at -1 2/3 or less for portrait fills and such. In contrast, I have read that Canon has a built in compensation even though you have dialed in 0 flash exposure compensation. To put it another way, Nikon flashes put out more light than Canon flashes at 0 exposure compensation, all other things being equal. I hope I have explained things well. Frankly I prefer the Nikon system because it is a known quantity. As I mentioned Canon has not published their built-in fill compensation so you have to figure it all out by trial and error.
Now in an ideal world I should be able to give you the references to this but I can't without some digging, which I will do.
And if I have this all wrong, I'm sure fellow BPNers will tell me so!
PS- For Canon folks, I have found this a very good resource for flash information. Perhaps the above is buried in this 3-part article. I'll have a look.
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/#controlling
Additional note- There is reference to what Canon does in part 2 of the above here:
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html (scroll down to Auto fill reduction). The author is saying that the automatic output reduction is up to 1.5 stops but I have read that this figure has not been published by Canon.
Last edited by John Chardine; 10-06-2010 at 06:31 PM. Reason: added note
John
You have posted a very good reference in your last post. I would thin it should be posted into the Tutorials and Educational Resources forum where other people would be more able to see it. I think a lot of info is missed when posted in various forums. I don't speak for others but I know I don't have time to read all forums and when I have had some time I have found much educational information in obscure places.
Bill
Here's from the manual of SB-800 flash light:
■■■ TTL auto flash
In this mode, the flash illumination that is reflected back from the subject is
detected by the camera’s TTL auto flash sensor and the camera automatically
controls the flash output level to give the correct exposure.
Automatic Balanced Fill-Flash
Press the abutton to display Doon the LCD panel, and Automatic
Balanced Fill-Flash is performed. The flash output level is automatically
adjusted for a well-balanced exposure of the main subject and background.
(While performing Balanced Fill-Flash, no oappears with cameras in Groups
III and IV.)
• indicates “i-TTL Automatic Balanced Fill-Flash” in the i-TTL mode.
Standard TTL flash
Press the abutton to display Don the LCD panel, and Standard TTL
flash is performed. The main subject is correctly exposed regardless of the
background brightness. This is useful when you want to highlight the main
subject.
• indicates “Standard i-TTL flash” in the i-TTL mode, “Standard TTL flash for Digital
SLRs” in the D-TTL mode, and “Standard TTL flash” in the TTL (film-based) mode.
Also:
Monitor Preflashes
The SB-800 fires a series of imperceptible Monitor Preflashes just before the
flash fires to obtain information on the subject in these cases:
(1) when the SB-800 is used with cameras compatible with CLS, digital SLRs
not compatible with CLS, cameras in Group I with a CPU lens, and
COOLPIX cameras compatible with i-TTL, and flash mode is set to TTL
auto flash, and
(2) when the SB-800 is used with cameras compatible with CLS with a CPU
lens, and the flash mode is set to Auto Aperture flash.
Monitor Preflashes are fired instantaneously and cannot be differentiated from
the main flash, but H appears on the LCD panel (using a single flash unit).
However, for cameras in Group I, Monitor Preflashes are not fired when the
SB-800’s flash head is adjusted to other than the horizontal/front or down to –7°
position, or the camera’s flash sync mode is set to Rear-curtain sync, even
when H appears on the LCD panel.
Compensation made by the photographer could be needed when the scene is not average, such as when photographing an environmental shot of a black bird on a sunny day on a beach. It's no different to making exposure compensation in some ambient light photography situations.
Last edited by Desmond Chan; 10-06-2010 at 08:13 PM.
Thanks Desmond. I guess I don't like Nikon flashes better then, as they seem to behave the same way as Canon's in relation to what they call "automatic balanced fill flash".
I'll keep digging though because I don't think I was dreaming when I read this!
Here's more on using flash (Nikon specifically if you will):
http://www.moosepeterson.com/techtips/flash.html
http://www.moosepeterson.com/D3/media_center.html
Ohhhh one more thing with HSS - You tend to loose the ability to freeze the action - due to the fact that the flash output is now many small pulses that effectively merge together to create a constant source of light the entire time the shutter stays open.
:)
And usually the flash light would have to be close to the subjects, too. Joe McNally used high sync flash to shoot skate boarder on one of the training video for Kelby. He used several flashlight together though.
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