Can't beat Doug Brown but here's a try

**Wheeler McDougal Jr.** · 03-07-2010, 02:53 PM

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**Morkel Erasmus** · 03-07-2010, 03:01 PM

I like the pose Wheeler but something in the details is just way off? :(
do you shoot RAW or JPG? it looks like there was noise reduction done on the bird and the white balance might be off too...is this a large crop?

**Wheeler McDougal Jr.** · 03-07-2010, 03:17 PM

Morkel
I shoot RAW and I used no noise reduction and as I said very little crop. I don't see the white balance being off. I am not sure what your seeing.
Mac

**Morkel Erasmus** · 03-07-2010, 03:41 PM

the image quality just doesn't look good to me. I don't want to come across rude, just giving my earnest opinion. I'm just saying given the gear you were using the image quality made me think it might be a huge crop.

**Wheeler McDougal Jr.** · 03-07-2010, 03:48 PM

Morkel - I certainly didn't think you were rude at all. I just don't see what you are seeing. Are you comparing it to some other image such as Doug Browns'. If so they are different sexes and the femail is quite different from the male. Short of that I can't see the poor image quality. If you tell me what exactly it is I would really appreciate it and don't worry about hurting my feelings as you won't.-
Mac

**Morkel Erasmus** · 03-07-2010, 04:09 PM

if you're saying the male and female have significant colour differences then that sorts the "inferred" white balance I was referring to, but I find it hard to hit the nail on the head verbally - it's just that finite sharpness and feather detail seems to be lacking given the fact that you say it's a minimal crop and the quality of the gear you were using - hence I was wondering if it might be a processing issue...
hope I'm making sense? maybe the light was just very harsh?

Axel Hildebrandt · 03-07-2010, 04:24 PM

I like the wing position and angle. I would tone down the whites and sharpen the bird a bit more.

**Wheeler McDougal Jr.** · 03-07-2010, 05:33 PM

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**Kristin Brown** · 03-07-2010, 06:12 PM

Mac,
your repost is much better! Love the wing position too! Fantastic time shooting with you :D

**Arthur Morris** · 03-07-2010, 07:54 PM

I like the wing position and the exposure and sharpness look good. But the image quality does look a bit suspect and the image looks a bit over-sharpened. The thing that bugs me the most is that the bird is looking slighty away from you.

**Doug Brown** · 03-07-2010, 10:25 PM

Really enjoyed spending the day with you Mac! Thanks for the compliment in the title. Wing position looks good, but I do agree with Artie's crititque.

**Wheeler McDougal Jr.** · 03-07-2010, 11:05 PM

I would really like to know what it is that makes this image look 'suspect'. Don't have the slightest idea what that means. I can certainly understand the over sharp criticsm and the eye not looking as it should, but the supect image is beyond me. Can you help?

**Arthur Morris** · 03-08-2010, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Wheeler McDougal Jr.

I would really like to know what it is that makes this image look 'suspect'. Don't have the slightest idea what that means. I can certainly understand the over sharp criticsm and the eye not looking as it should, but the supect image is beyond me. Can you help?

Hi Wheeler, What I said was that the image quality was suspect. By that we mean that it looks noisy and lacks fine detail as if it had been over-processed. That especially in the shaded areas of the underwings as if they had been lightened too much. :)

**Wheeler McDougal Jr.** · 03-08-2010, 08:49 AM

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Deborah Hanson · 03-08-2010, 08:52 AM

I don't know if this helps. But at times when I don't get the balance of shutter speed, aperture, and ISO right - I can get a noisy image (in the whites or the shadows) when I don't think I should. I am not an expert so I can't be sure. However, I looked at the other photo that you mentioned and his techs were 1/2000, ISO 640, f7.1. Blue skies behind the bird indicate it was taken during good daylight/harsh sun(?).
I know that someone above said that the exposure (techs) were correct - so I don't know. It just seemed that the ISO was higher and shutter speed was faster than it needed to be - plus you had a EV+.3.(?)

That said - I like the head of the bird and the intensity of the stare that you were able to capture. The beak is sharp (all the way to the tip) and one can see the iris in the eye. Feathers are distinct - but can't comment on color as I have never seen the bird.

Deb

**Wheeler McDougal Jr.** · 03-08-2010, 09:26 AM

Thank you Deb, every little piece of information is helpful.

**Arthur Morris** · 03-08-2010, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Wheeler McDougal Jr.

Thanks Artie. I am reposting the uncropped/unchanged original so you can see how little was done to it. Maybe any comments you have on it will be of help to me to understand further. Thanks for all the help from everyone. Mac

Ah, there-in lies the problem. The original is not sharp and the posted image represented a huge crop. In combination, this explains the poor image quality. Thanks for posting the ORIG.

**Morkel Erasmus** · 03-08-2010, 05:01 PM

thanks for posting the original - as Artie said it is now explained. I think we misunderstood each other in terms of crop. when I said "large crop" I meant "was a large part of the image cropped off" - to which you replied no it's a little crop, which probably meant that it's a small image compared to the original ;):D

**arash_hazeghi** · 03-08-2010, 05:22 PM

Hi Wheeler, it is a tight crop but I still think you can salvage a lot more from this, if possible email me the NEF file I will work on it. I think it will get a lot better with correct processing.

**Wheeler McDougal Jr.** · 03-08-2010, 09:19 PM

Arush- Do I use your ahazeghi@stanford.edu to send the NEF file.
Mac

**Jay Gould** · 03-08-2010, 09:33 PM

For me the problem lies especially with the left underwing pattern. You opened up by saying a slight crop; in fact, it is a very large crop. A while back I posted an image of a Mockingbird that also had a very large crop and Artie described the area under the beak as "yucky". I think that is an apt description for the area under the foreground wing.

As I was told, the extent of the crop has affected the IQ.

TFS and look forward to more images from you.

**arash_hazeghi** · 03-08-2010, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by Wheeler McDougal Jr.

Arush- Do I use your to send the NEF file.
Mac

yup send it over. I will do what I can.

**arash_hazeghi** · 03-09-2010, 05:52 AM

This fine photo is by Wheeler and I took the liberty to repost it as a follow up to this thread :
http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ad.php?t=58820 because I feel it did not receive the critique it deserves, this also shows what a difference correct processing can make. The original RAW is sharp and contains fine details but the previous post was not very appealing due to processing.

Here is my try

Nikon D3 + 200-400 f/4 f/5.6 1/4000 sec ISO 800.

Please take a few minutes to re-critique this photo, I start by myself, I like everything here except for the head that is mildly turned away.

Thanks Wheeler for sending the NEF file, I hope you like this.

**Stephen Earle** · 03-09-2010, 07:50 AM

What an improvement. Just goes to show how important processing is in the digital age. Head angle mentioned.

**Grace Scalzo** · 03-09-2010, 08:02 AM

Arash and Wheeler, excellent lesson, you two made a good team! Aside from the head angle which does cause a disconnect when viewing, all looks good. I like the composition and the fine details in the underwing.

**Doug Brown** · 03-09-2010, 08:23 AM

I'm glad you did this Arash. I was going to do the same thing, but had a pretty busy day yesterday. I had seen Mac's images on his camera's LCD and knew they looked better than the photo he posted. This really highlights the importance of post-processing in taking your images from good to great.

david cramer · 03-09-2010, 08:34 AM

Nice processing, Arash. Aside from the HA, it also looks as though the light was harsh when taken. It does has plenty of detail in it.

Deborah Hanson · 03-09-2010, 08:45 AM

Really impressed with the repost. Post processing is an art, it seems - I have much to learn. (Arash - do you offer tutorials in post processing?:D)
As to the image (for me) - it has good detail in the feathers, good wing position, eye detail, good intent expression, and the colors seem true.

Thank you for taking time to post process/repost the photo. I think both Wheeler and Arash did a great job.
Deb

**Ilija Dukovski** · 03-09-2010, 08:46 AM

Great work Arash and Wheeler, I think
this one has great potential too:

www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58915

If you are too busy I can help with it.

**Stu Bowie** · 03-09-2010, 09:44 AM

Great work Arash, and as mentionrd, what a pity the HA is slightly off.

**Kaustubh Deshpande** · 03-09-2010, 10:56 AM

Power of processing( we should call it "post" anymore, right?) well illustrated. Thx. Arash and Wheeler. Nice and sharp....lot of details.

**Lana Hays** · 03-09-2010, 12:03 PM

What an excellent job of post processing. A fine example of how PP can make....or break an image. Well done....for both of you.

**Wheeler McDougal Jr.** · 03-09-2010, 02:06 PM

Arash- Thanks for the redo on my image. I thought you were going to share what you did to make the image so much better. I'll wait to hear from you. wheelermcdougal@comcast.net Thanks again for your trouble.
Mac

**arash_hazeghi** · 03-09-2010, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Wheeler McDougal Jr.

Arash- Thanks for the redo on my image. I thought you were going to share what you did to make the image so much better. I'll wait to hear from you. wheelermcdougal@comcast.net Thanks again for your trouble.
Mac

I sent you the TIFF file, I will put together a short demo for capture NX2 later tonight.

Best

Arash

**Dave Leroy** · 03-11-2010, 10:59 AM

Good for you Arash to make the time and effort to help out a fellow photographer and to see the potential in the original. Lesson learned for me.

Nice looking photo Wheeler and looking forward to seeing more.

**Markus Jais** · 03-11-2010, 03:52 PM

I like Arash much better. He really is a wizard when it comes to digital processing.
Great light and wing pose. Excellent exposure. I only wish for a slightly better head angle.

Markus

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Can't beat Doug Brown but here's a try

snail Kite-By Wheeler McDougal Jr.

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