Osprey - gotta get some lunch

[Krish Naidoo]

Species
Common Name - Osprey
Scientific Name- Pandion haliaetus
Date- 02/07/2016
Location- The Entrance
Camera Details
Brand/Model- Canon 7D Mkii
Lens- Canon 100-400 Mkii +1.4TC @ 560
Camera Settings
ISO- 1000
F-Stop- 8
Shutter Speed- 1/4000
Exposure Bias/Metering/Flash- 0/EV/0
Technique- HH
Attraction Aides- none
Post Production-
DPP - Crop and export to PS.
PS -
Dfine(auto-whole image) - I should probably not have used such a high ISO and still got a reasonably high shutter speed. I had the high ISO for when it was still on the tree in between the leaves.


Notes-
Caught me by surprise again. The last time I got some shots of this bird(I think it may be the same one) was back in January in the first hour of using the 100-400. Those shots did not have as much side on of the bird as this but were still reasonably good for me. It took 3 attempts to get the catch unfortunately it still surprised me when taking off for the dive, hence only managed a few reasonably shots. The place is fairly busy, with people walking around all the time, so kind of awkward to stand there with the camera to your face pointing at a bird high up on its perch waiting for it to take off.
C&C welcome and appreciated.

[Warren Spreng]

Beautiful Krish, love the action in this one, the whole fish, bird is sharp everywhere. You have handled that harsh light well with just a small part on the side of the bird that blew out a bit that doesn't bother me. I don't know if you can pull out any other details on the far wing but again that is a small nit. I love the textures and details on the foreground wing, nicely done!

[Adhika Lie]

Beautiful, Krish! I think you could lift up the shadows a bit more. Right now, it's a little clogged to the right. I see what Warren mean about the blown out highlights and I, too, am not bothered. But you could try cloning some texture to patch it up.

[Bob Smith]

Great wing position on a majestic bird Krish and it looks like you got focus wing tip to wing tip. Did you take a stab at bringing up the black area on the right wing?

[Krish Naidoo]

Thanks for looking and the helpful C&C. I will try some of the suggestions to get some more detail on the right wing.


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[Diane Miller]

A nice catch -- for both of you! They never seem to give me any warning when they take off so I appreciate that you got him framed well. The BG is very nice, giving a context without grabbing attention.

The tonalities on these birds, from white to dark brown, are very difficult to expose. Did you do any adjustments in DPP? (Sounds like maybe you just exported it as it came in?) Once an image comes into PS with highlights too bright and/or darks too dark, it is not possible to recover good tonal detail on either end. That's where the extra tonal overhead of a good raw converter comes in. If this is all you could get from DPP, since you have PS, I'd try ACR for comparison. The Shadows and Highlights sliders can work wonders with more detail to be brought out than DPP.

[Glennie Passier]

Krish, I look at this and sigh. I have recently spent a good deal of time shooting white bellied sea eagles, but unfortunately, just too far away.

I like the upward wing positions and the detail. Composition is good. BG is also good. What's not to like about this. As suggested, maybe a little lifting of shadows. He looks like he is banded.

Well done Krish!

[Krish Naidoo]

Thanks for the C&C.
Glennie, yes it is banded. Where is too far away from you?
Diane, I have LR as well. However I am still coming to grips with those 2. For some reason I feel DPP into PS seems to look better to me.
Here is a repost with reduced highlights and increased shadows in DPP.



Don't know why the image is showing as a linked attachment in my browser. Is it the same for others as well? - Fixed

[Diane Miller]

I see it as a link but when I click it it says it is not a valid link.

[Krish Naidoo]

I will have to try the repost again tonight.


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[Glennie Passier]

Krish, the white bellied, sea eagles were on Stradbroke Island. There was a pair sailing up and down the beach...and of course, I was always on the wrong end of the beach. I managed to get some decent in flight shots, but way too small in frame and cropping was not an option.

[Krish Naidoo]

Krish, the white bellied, sea eagles were on Stradbroke Island. There was a pair sailing up and down the beach...and of course, I was always on the wrong end of the beach. I managed to get some decent in flight shots, but way too small in frame and cropping was not an option.

Gelnnie, This is only my second encounter with the osprey at The Entrance, NSW in all this time that I have lived on the CC. I hope to find a few other raptors along this CC coast line.


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[Diane Miller]

The repost is much better -- good work!

[Adhika Lie]

I love the repost. That brown color is just amazing.

[Krish Naidoo]

Thanks, appreciate the C&C.


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[Bob Smith]

Nicely done Krish.

[Arthur Morris]

Krish, Again you were hurt by the wind... The birds will always take off and land (and even perch) into the wind. The harsh, off-angled light hurt you here too. Try to work with your shadow pointed roughly at the subject if at all possible. Otherwise, as here, you wind up with harsh shadows and difficult exposure problems...

In the repost in pan 8 you have simply greyed out the whites... Not a good option.

a

[arash_hazeghi]

Hi Krish, Artie is correct all the repost PP in pane 8 made it worse. Unfortunately this image is a delete no matter how you look at it.

I think instead of getting hung up on PP you need to realize that an image like this is just not going to work given the very harsh light and the osprey flying away from you. no amount of PP will make this one a keeper. The best advise is to pay attention to the direction of light and wind, you need to capture the bird when he is coming towards you with your shadow pointed towards him and the sun lower in the sky. It may not happen the first or the second time you shoot at this location but you have to keep trying until you get the basics right first. Once you get there, we can talk about techs and ideal post processing approach to get the best out of your shot, but until then focus your efforts and time in the field.

keep up the good work!

[arash_hazeghi]

Nicely done Krish.

Bob with all due respect this image is not nicely done, since we are a serious critique forum we want to keep our standards high otherwise we will be just another Facebook! The image has fatal flaws such as the harsh light and the non-ideal flying angle, the shadow in the pupil is very distracting.


Also when you like an image please elaborate what you like about it

best

[Krish Naidoo]

Thanks and appreciate the C&C.
Now that I know the bird seems to frequent this location I will have to scout the location to see if the bird is there in better light conditions and for another point to shoot from.


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[Arthur Morris]

And/or a different wind with clouds... High key Osprey images can rock.

a

[Bob Smith]

Bob with all due respect this image is not nicely done, since we are a serious critique forum we want to keep our standards high otherwise we will be just another Facebook! The image has fatal flaws such as the harsh light and the non-ideal flying angle, the shadow in the pupil is very distracting.


Also when you like an image please elaborate what you like about it

best

Apologies Arash for the laconic post. I know we are supposed to give reasons for our observations and I didn't, so I dropped the ball on that one. And if I hadn't dropped the ball the misunderstanding would have been avoided. I was not praising the image but rather the degree of improvement I thought Krish had managed to achieve in processing to get the repost, as also noted by Adhika and Dianne. I simply wanted to add my word of encouragement, although perhaps of little relative weight, for the effort and the outcome. It appears that you and Arthur disagree so I hope I can profit from that upon continued review of the image. I respect the words and photographic achievement of both of you immensely. While I don’t think I’ll ever be convinced that the repost wasn’t an improvement, maybe I will understand why it wasn’t improvement enough and thereby learn to avoid those pitfalls myself .

I confess that I am somewhat befuddled by the issue of shadows. Many award winning photographers consider the utilization and portrayal of shadow in their work as a keystone to their artistic accomplishments. Addressing this to both you and Arthur, as well as anyone else who wishes to comment,….. Is there an artistic line between good shadow and bad shadow?.. is it a matter of degree?.. is it simply a matter of personal preference or opinion?.. is it something to be avoided if possible in the original exposure but worked with if it occurs?..is it bad for birds in flight but OK for elephants walking across the sand?..can it be deliberately used or manipulated in a constructive manner?


I assume that you are speaking for yourself when you say an such image should be deleted. I may be going out on a limb here in purporting to speak for others but for those of us just beginning in the craft and art of bird photography, and perhaps even for some of the more accomplished amongst us, an image like this one, or Will Dickson’s “Over and Under” terns posted yesterday, is a substantial achievement and is unlikely to be and should not be deleted. Rather, in my view, it should be kept, enjoyed for what it portrays and the memories it invokes, and learned from where we can see it has failed. For those of you who have reached a level of photographic ability that you can routinely surpass these images deletion may make sense but not for me, not yet.

Upon reviewing this missive I sense that I may have become somewhat intense and for that I do not apologize. I realize that anything I say does not come from any great, or even modest, degree of photographic expertise but I guess some of Arthur’s, and indeed of this whole Forum’s, passion for this world of bird photography has rubbed off on me.

[arash_hazeghi]

Hi Bob,

Let me answer your great questions:

Yes shadows can work in some images, but rarely in images where the intent is to depict natural history. In street photography shadows can be used to direct our attention to a given detail or to a subject less obvious, or to hide something in order to raise viewer's curiosity, in landscape photography shadows can be used to change the feel and the look of a photo and sometimes provide a different interpretation of a familiar subject. In all of these cases, shadows add to the story. But here, shadows don't tell us anything other than the fact that light was harsh and not ideal. They distract from the beauty of the osprey and its soft feathers rather than enhance it. They distort the colors as the repost shows clearly.

Likewise you won't find that many award wining bird photos in prestigious contests that have this kind of harsh shadows.

A good work of art is not entirely random and merely a personal preference.


and yes this image is definitely a delete for me and I am sure for Artie as well, in fact I wouldn't have captured this image at first place. If my purpose is to just document seeing an osprey at a location maybe I would take a shot, but I wouldn't share it here as it doesn't do justice to the beauty of the bird. This forum isn't the best place for ID shots, we have a separate forum for that. That's not saying such images shouldn't posted for feedback, they should, but in this case the best feedback is to delete and retry for the reasons mentioned.

the repost is worse because the pure white osprey feathers now look grey and the top side looks like it's made of plastic, the color is off. No amount of PP, no software on earth can make up for the non-ideal light and the non-ideal angle here unfortunately and I think that's important for our readers to realize. There is no magic PP that can turn such files into keepers.

In this forum most folks (including yours truly) start from mediocre but the goal is to take it to perfection, this goal can only be achieved by honest and starlight forward critique...rather than just a pat on the back, for that there are many other forums

best

[Glennie Passier]

I wish I had the eloquence of Bob, but unfortunately, I don't, so I will put this as simply as I can.

The people who contribute to the ETL are here for a reason. To learn. I started shooting birds around eight months ago. I look back and cringe at my earlier attempts. But I feel I am improving because of the ETL and the comments offered (either by way of composition, techs, PP or field craft) by Diane and other ETLers and sometimes David Salem, Doug Brown and Steve Kaluski.

"We are not born knowing these things" and it is such a great journey.

Arash and Artie, I am in awe of your images. Flawless, beautiful, evocative. Were your first avian images flawless, beautiful and evocative?

[arash_hazeghi]

I wish I had the eloquence of Bob, but unfortunately, I don't, so I will put this as simply as I can.

The people who contribute to the ETL are here for a reason. To learn.

Exactly, that's why we owe them an honest critique. Sometimes the best advice is to simply delete a file, go back and try another day. Post processing this file is a waste of time. I am pretty sure most talented and skilled photographers would agree. It's like trying to fix a dead engine by swapping tiers. it just ain't work.

I started shooting birds around eight months ago. I look back and cringe at my earlier attempts. But I feel I am improving because of the ETL and the comments offered (either by way of composition, techs, PP or field craft) by Diane and other ETLers and sometimes David Salem, Doug Brown and Steve Kaluski.

I am glad you have improved. that's our goal.

"We are not born knowing these things" and it is such a great journey.

nobody is born with skills. skills are acquired.

Arash and Artie, I am in awe of your images. Flawless, beautiful, evocative. Were your first avian images flawless, beautiful and evocative?

Thanks for kind words and no, my first images were garbage. They were terrible. But I didn't improve until someone told me that they were garbage, and why they were garage, so I deleted them, went back tried harder and got better and better... it is still work in progress

best,

[Arthur Morris]

Arash and Artie, I am in awe of your images. Flawless, beautiful, evocative. Were your first avian images flawless, beautiful and evocative?

Hi Glennie,

My first images were pure garbage. Tiny specks of sandpipers on the developed film, Kodachrome 64. "Are those the birds?"

I have taken only a single nature photography course, 8 Tuesday nights for two hours starting in FEB 1984. The most valuable part of the course were the critiques. Done by the instructor and all the participants. They were pretty much what we strive to do here on BPN, only live.

I am glad that Arash took Bob to task for posting "Nicely done Krish" for a very weak image. Had I seen it first I would have done the same thing. First off, we always ask folks who post "Great shot" comments to explain why they like the image. Second, as is mentioned above, if you say only positive things about obviously poor image with lots of flaws including fatal ones, the poster has no chance to improve.Ever. Even if the comments were made by a Mod. Many folks think that by praising a poor image that they are being nice. And on many forums, that is the way to make lots of friends. But who does it help in the long run.

One a personal note Glennie, it is hard to believe that you have been photographing birds for only 8 months. Most of the images that you post here are as good or better than most of the stuff I was creating after 10-15 years, and many of them are as good as the stuff I am making now. You should, without trepidation, start posting in Avian on a regular basis.

a

[Arthur Morris]

I confess that I am somewhat befuddled by the issue of shadows. Many award winning photographers consider the utilization and portrayal of shadow in their work as a keystone to their artistic accomplishments. Addressing this to both you and Arthur, as well as anyone else who wishes to comment,….. Is there an artistic line between good shadow and bad shadow?.. is it a matter of degree?.. is it simply a matter of personal preference or opinion?.. is it something to be avoided if possible in the original exposure but worked with if it occurs?..is it bad for birds in flight but OK for elephants walking across the sand?..can it be deliberately used or manipulated in a constructive manner?

I assume that you are speaking for yourself when you say an such image should be deleted. I may be going out on a limb here in purporting to speak for others but for those of us just beginning in the craft and art of bird photography, and perhaps even for some of the more accomplished amongst us, an image like this one, or Will Dickson’s “Over and Under” terns posted yesterday, is a substantial achievement and is unlikely to be and should not be deleted. Rather, in my view, it should be kept, enjoyed for what it portrays and the memories it invokes, and learned from where we can see it has failed. For those of you who have reached a level of photographic ability that you can routinely surpass these images deletion may make sense but not for me, not yet.

Upon reviewing this missive I sense that I may have become somewhat intense and for that I do not apologize. I realize that anything I say does not come from any great, or even modest, degree of photographic expertise but I guess some of Arthur’s, and indeed of this whole Forum’s, passion for this world of bird photography has rubbed off on me.

Hi Bob, I will respond here to a few of your comments.

On shadows. There are obviously some great, award winning nature and bird photographs that feature strong shadows. I have a few of those myself. With birds, I often the shadow of the bird on the sand as an element of the composition. Furthermore, when a bird is flying from one side of the frame to the other on a sunny day, all of the images with the wings down will be ruined by the shadow of the wing on the bird's body. That almost without exception. If you catch the bird in the full upstroke, you can make some great shadowless images. So yes, there are good shadows and bad shadows. When the bad shadows are unavoidable there is nothing you can do in the field to improve the RAW file (other than make sure that you do not burn the brightest highlights). But still, there is nothing you can do in post to make a great image of it. On rare occasion, you can tone down the highlights (without greying them out) and open up the shadows--DPPP 4 is great at that, and wind up with something acceptable. I will close this section by saying that harsh shadows on flying birds are generally fatal to the success of the image, especially when the photographer is working off sun angle as was the case here...

Yes, there are lots of reasons to keep bad images, too many to list here. When Arash said that this image is a delete, he mis-spoke a bit. He should have said that for a intermediate and experienced bird photographers, this image should be a delete. I can, however, assure you that Arash's intentions are good. He is a remarkably gifted photographer who goes out of his way to help folks improve. His current 14,336 posts speak highly of his efforts. I for one am glad Krish kept and posted this image. Why? Look how much learning has taken place here for those have read all the comments with an open mind and tried not to take things personally. And I must say that everyone here has done just that.

Lastly, thanks for your nice comments; I have been trying to inspire folks for the past three plus decades.

a

ps: best advice to everyone here is to subscribe to my educational blog. Right now I am on a streak of 246 days in a row with a new educational blog post.

[arash_hazeghi]

Just to clarify I also agree with Artie and am happy this image was posted, so we could point out the flaws, following the explanations the best course of action is to go back and repeat the shot in more favorable conditions, that's what I meant by delete and go back.

[Bob Smith]

Thanks Arash and Arthur for elucidating this shadow issue. It is clearly a matter the proper understanding of which is crucial to good bird photography and your replies have shed much light on the subject.