Little Grebe lovin' the Lily Pads

[Sandy Witvoet]

Spotted this cute little Horned Grebe, non-breeding plumage hiding among the lily pads last night... First ever sighting and photo! (would LOVE to see one in breeding plumage... quite a dif!) Quick process in RAW, just a few adjustments, converted, cloned out some RED lily pad stems, selective sharpen... nothing done to BG or FG. Since it's such a small bird (about 14" nose to tail), about a 40-50% crop. HH from our boat, 60D, 400mm F4, F5.6, ss1/1250, ISO 800. Will love your feedback!

[Carolyn Arnesen]

I like the comp, HA and beaded water drops on this beautiful bird. If mine, I might take some off the bottom and level it slightly.

[Diane Miller]

It is cute, but a little lost in the setting. You've already cropped a lot, but taking more off the top and bottom would let the bird stand out a little better. I agree with Carolyn on some rotation.

[Sandy Witvoet]

Thanks so much, Carolyn and Diane!
Here is my dilemma that perhaps you can help me with.... If I take some off of the bottom, it puts the Grebe more centered? ... then might require more cropping? I am assuming by rotation, it would be CW? When I tried it, then the waves at top looked really out of whack, as did the ones at the bottom LRC, as did the tiny "wake" generated by the bird's left shoulder. WDYT about lowering the brightness of the lily pads on the LLC? Might that help a bit? I rather like the environment (but maybe that's just me). Was surprised at how dark with the gray waves the BG the LRC show. (probably because there was a big tree overhead, casting an interesting play of shadow and light....and, just in case you are still wondering, I really did absolutely nothing to those areas! I'm DEFINITELY not good enough to figure out how to do anything like that in PP!) OK, since I really am not too good at PP.... can you find the "clone-outs?" I'll post an "un-cloned" image in a day or so....

[Diane Miller]

Here's my suggested crop. with a 1 deg CW rotation, to make the lily pads level, the way you would level a circular wake. I don't see any cloning issues.

If it were mine, I'd carefully select the bottom of the throat and the beak and gently darken the areas behind, to make the head stand out. Maybe brighten the beak a little if that's authentic. You did a very good job with the whites on the breast.

[Sandy Witvoet]

Hey! Thanks, Diane! That looks GREAT! Everything balances and works well together on your re-do!!! Thanks also for the recommendations! Glad the cloning isn't visible (there was one totally obnoxious red stem intersecting the Grebe's head, plus another in front of him.)

[Carolyn Arnesen]

Sandy, I like the dark water here, it gives a sense of the bird being in a protected pool. Diane, I like your re-post and how the crop helps to focus attention immediately on the bird.

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Sandy, The cloning is fine. There are two main problems:

#1: the image seems to be less than sharp....
#2: the merge of the bird's head with the lily pads doomed the one from the get go.... Best, but probably not at all possible, would have been to get a lot lower. Other than that you'd need to wait for the bird to get in clear water.....With the merge of the head and the bill with the background lessens the impact and visibility of the subject; the image simply lacks pop....

[Sandy Witvoet]

Thank you very much Carolyn! Diane really helped out.
And, Thanks Artie... Yep, not much Pop. A better POV would surely help.... would have loved to. He didn't hang around long enough to get a better comp....which likely would have put the head above the lily pads.
As to sharpness, def could be better for internet posting...I personally prefer a bit softer "portrait" look with "stuff to study" for printing, (hard to describe) .... but that's just me.
Gosh, "doomed" is pretty bottom-line.... is it really THAT bad? If so, oh well, back to the drawing board... it ain't "hearts 'n' livers! "

[Ian Cassell]

Hi Sandy, I would be inclined to crop even more off the bottom and viewer's left than Diane has done. I'm not sure the reflection adds a whole lot to this image and, IMO, actually distracts from the main subject. I would show you what I'm thinking, but I'm on a computer at work and don't have an available editor.

[Arthur Morris]

Thank you very much Carolyn! Diane really helped out.
And, Thanks Artie... Yep, not much Pop. A better POV would surely help.... would have loved to. He didn't hang around long enough to get a better comp....which likely would have put the head above the lily pads.
As to sharpness, def could be better for internet posting...I personally prefer a bit softer "portrait" look with "stuff to study" for printing, (hard to describe) .... but that's just me.
Gosh, "doomed" is pretty bottom-line.... is it really THAT bad? If so, oh well, back to the drawing board... it ain't "hearts 'n' livers! "

Hey Sandy, I can only call them as I see them. The image is not sharp. If it were, it would be acceptable even with the head/lily pad merge... The excuse about a softer portrait look for internet posting it totally bogus.... Unless you are striving for something out of the box the images need to be sharp. Do you have Digital Basics? It contains explicit directions for sharpening JPEGs.

[Sandy Witvoet]

No problem..... do I win a prize for being both doomed and bogus all in one thread? (I don't think I'll get one for waking up in the middle of the night in tears for it.) As a teacher, if I told my student his/her project was that, I think that the desire to learn would certainly be stifled. Ok... no worries....
Still doomed on this one? Imaged a couple of minutes prior to the first one... different angle, different lighting, possibly a bit too slow SS. 1/640, ISO 800, F7.1

[Sandy Witvoet]

Hey, Thanks Ian for your comment and suggestion! Would LOVE to see your "take"... if you have time, PM me... I'll be more the HAPPY to send you something!

[Diane Miller]

Yes, this one shows the head much more distinctly. You have a very pleasing color palette here. My only thought would be to darken the lily pads that are at the bottom, just a little.

From your specs, you might have managed to get it a little sharper, but shooting from a boat and needing to crop works against that. Good result for what you had to work with!

One way to increase the odds of a sharp shot when handholding is to shoot a burst and hope one is better than the others. If distance to the subject is changing, go to AI Servo.

[Arthur Morris]

No problem..... do I win a prize for being both doomed and bogus all in one thread? (I don't think I'll get one for waking up in the middle of the night in tears for it.) As a teacher, if I told my student his/her project was that, I think that the desire to learn would certainly be stifled. Ok... no worries.... Still doomed on this one? Imaged a couple of minutes prior to the first one... different angle, different lighting, possibly a bit too slow SS. 1/640, ISO 800, F7.1

I taught rather successfully for 23 years in NYC. And have been teaching photography for probably at least another 30. Stating that the image was doomed (to failure) might have been a bit strong. I did not say that the image was bogus. I said that the excuse was bogus. I tailor my comments and critiques to different situations. But I always assume that adults can handle the truth. When I run into folks on IPTs that want to defend their images against ever comment that I offer, I will say, "Just let me know if you want me to tell you that every image is great and has no flaws and I will be glad to do that. It's a lot easier than offering an honest critique."

And whether I am in Avian or in ETL I will always critique each image as if it were mine.

Lastly, as to the image in Pane 12, with the bird's head above the lily pads the design concept is much better. There are however very serious problems with image quality and sharpness. I am not sure if the problem is with capture or with what you are doing to the photos. To me, the feather detail and the bird's face and eye look like mush.

Another thing that I forgot to mention is that I will often comment on what I see as serious problems with an image after the first ten folks who commented said that it was great....

If my honest comments are unwelcome please let me know and I will refrain from commenting. I do not like making folks cry.

[Sandy Witvoet]

Truce?

('course, it would have been a bit easier to deal with without the "mush" factor. Triple whammy on me! YIKES!) We all have our ways to comment and critique.... I try to simply abide by the C/C guidelines published here.
Honest comments are always appreciated and looked forward to.... sometimes without the negative adjectives, (well, whatever), but with constructive ways to improve. A bit of warped humor is pretty cool too!
Since conquering three life-threatening illnesses... (Hence, "it ain't hearts and livers") I hold no grudges and love every moment that I am upright and walking around and able to participate. ....Thank you for BPN and for the wonderful members here.