Canon 5D Mark III or 1DX for birds?

[Ofer Levy]

Hi all,
I would like to get a new body. I am very happy with my Mark IV but would like to have the new AF system and the new sensor as an option.
If I understand correctly the AF of the 5D III is identical to the AF of the 1DX, sensor is also the same or very similar so what is the major difference between the two bodies?
I know the 1DX can do 12 fps and the 5D III only 6 fps, I guess the shutter lag of the 5D III will be longer, buffer and built of the 1DX are probably better.

Are the above the major differences between the 2 cameras or there are other important factors that will make me spend the extra 3 grand keeping in mind I am very happy with my Mark IV?
Thanks,
Ofer

[David Stephens]

Good question.

See Andy Rouse's review of the 1DX:
http://www.andyrouse.co.uk/blog/223.php
I'm very happy with my 5D MkIII after around 3,000 clicks. I feel that the AF system is a major step up from my 7D and the 6-fps burst rate is "enough" for 99% of what I do.

The thing that has me thinking about the 1D-X is its high-ISO performance. Shooting at ISO 16,000 (if needed) looks like a very realistic possibility. The other thing that I didn't think of until Andy's review is using face recognition to track BIF. The bird may need a big "face", like an owl, but I'm curious to read about how the extra processing power changes AF vs. the 5D MkIII.

I'm hoping to see comparisons here by photogs with experience with both and the MkIV.

[Doug Brown]

I've been back and forth on this issue for quite a long time. I own both the 5D3 and the Mark IV. There is no question in my mind that the 5D3 has the best AF of any camera I've ever owned. The frame rate and the relatively low pixel density are the only two drawbacks of the 5D3 for me. The 1Dx takes care of the frame rate, but takes away even more pixels. And then there's the cost of the 1Dx, which is way too expensive IMO. The 1Dx is also supposed to drive the AF mechanism on big super telephoto lenses faster than the 5D3.

I'm not particularly interested in how the camera performs at ISO 16,000, because I spend almost zero time photographing in light conditions that require such high ISOs. The problem with face detect AF is that it only works when you use automatic AF point selection; I use center point AF almost exclusively while photographing BIF, and I'm unlikely to change anytime soon.

For these reasons, I'm not taking the plunge on the 1Dx for the time being. Bird photographers who can fill the frame with subject are likely not photographing action; for these folks the extra pixels of the 5D3 are a plus, and the frame rate isn't all that important. BIF photographers typically frame loose in the field and crop for composition in post; I don't think the 1Dx has enough pixels to do much cropping (18 megapixels compared to the 27 megapixels that a FF Mark IV would have).

I'm inclined to wait and see if Canon is going to produce a 7D successor with the 1Dx AF system (and possibly a 1.3x sensor). I would expect an announcement sometime this year, as the 7D is about 2 years old at this point.

[David Stephens]

Good point about the 7D MkII. I am waiting to see what happens to the 7D with the Digic 5+ processor and probable new sensor and AF system.

[arash_hazeghi]

I also own both 5D3 and MK4, I haven't used the 5D3 much for bird photography and I am always hesitant to use it because it has a higher chance of missing the dynamic pose and peak of action that I like to capture. If I photographed less dynamic subjects maybe I would use it more. The MK4 AF is really good IMO, even in the toughest situations I can nail the bird most of the time and its image quality is great too.

Is the 1DX worth $6700? not for me. I am skipping this body for now, the loss of resolution is substantial. I can get printable results with my MK4 at ISO 3200 and I have posted quite a few high ISO samples, and of course not postage-size files like the ones you see in most reviews :) If the light is lower you should pack and go home IMO. The image sensor in the 1DX does not really match its price tag IMO. I will wait until Moore's law combines both speed and resolution in the next generation 1 series. Maybe if price goes down by at least 25% I will consider a 1DX down the road but not now for this price. Even the 5D3 is a bit overpriced given the competition IMO.

[John Guastella]

I would expect an announcement sometime this year, as the 7D is about 2 years old at this point.

Actually, the 7D is three years old (released in September 2009), and based on Canon's standard camera body release cycle one might expect a new version soon. But the recent firmware upgrade for the 7D suggests that Canon is going to wring at least another full year out of the current model.

John

[Markus Jais]

I am also torn between a 1DX and the 5DIII. I love photographing birds and now use mostly my 7D for this. I also want to get more into landscape photography and here the 5DIII would be better because it has a higher resolution and I want a full frame for landscapes - and please a 14-24 in high quality.

Even with the 7D and a 4/500 + 1.4 I often don't get a frame filling picture of a bird so the loss of pixels with the 1DX (when shot from the same distance, of course) would be massive and cropping wouldn't always be an option. Of course the 12fps and the superb AF would a huge bonus and of course the better IQ compared to the 7D.

But at the moment I am waiting. In a few weeks there is Photokina. Canon will probably announce something and the D800 has put a lot of pressure on Canon. So I may wait until there is a FF with 35-40 MP for landscapes and hopefully a 7D successor with 5DIII AF, better high ISO (maybe with 22 MP and 1.3 crop of keep the 1.6 crop and stay with 18 MP but increase high ISO performance - unless they can do both: Increase MP and much better high ISO but I doubt that).

So I would wait a few more weeks, I think Canon will announce something before Photokina. If Canon produces a 7D II or something similar it might be a better option - at least for me - to wait for that and use the money I will save on not getting the 1DX on the new EF 4/600L IS II.

Markus

[David Stephens]

Markus, in the comparisons I've seen between the D800 and the 5D MkIII, the D800 turns out to have less reliable and accurate AF and is slow in terms of fps and quickly fills its buffer and will not restart until the buffer empties. With my 5D MkIII I get roughly 17 shots before the buffer fills and then it'll shoot about one shot per second as the buffer partially clears. There's a price to be paid for those huge files and tiny pixels (no smaller than the 7D actually).

I'm finding that I don't miss the crop sensor of the 7D near as much as I thought I would. The heavily cropped files of the 5D3 are roughly matching the 7D at ISO 400 and lower, but beating the 7D at ISO 800 and higher. My keeper rate with the 5D3 vs. the 7D has roughly tripled, thanks to the superior AF.

I think that waiting to see the 7D MkII is a wise course of action. If the Digic 5+ processor and new sensor can improve it's high-ISO performance a stop or two and it receives the new AF system, then it'll be a stunning camera.

Working with two bodies, like a 5D MkIII and a 7D MkII, is the best of all worlds. Or, if you prefer, couple the 7D MkII with a stellar wide angle and you'll match the resolution of the D800. For me, the resolution of the 5D MkIII is more than adequate.

[arash_hazeghi]

The D800 AF is excellent in competent hands (see Alan Murphy's photos) and its buffer is actually larger and faster than that of 5D3. The D800 gets 17 RAWs in a burst at full res (30 RAWs in DX crop mode at 6fps) even with a SD card. The 5D3 SD slot is useless as it does not support SDUHS. With CF cards like SanDisk extreme pro you can only expect 14 frames before it slows down. Only with the expensive UDMA7 card (currently only Lexar has them) you can get the advertised 17 frames, but you have to pay $250 for a 32GB card so it quickly adds up for a bunch of cards. The 5D3 prices have already dropped a bit and I expect it will drop to about $3000 by the end of the year so if you want to buy one I suggest waiting.

I wish Canon could improve the buffer depth of the 5D3 with a firmware upgrade or even an optional hardware upgrade. For $3500 I wish it was 8fps and at least 25RAWs in buffer similar to the 3-year old 7D.

[Charles Glatzer]

I used both a 1DX and 5D3 w/ vert grip exclusively while in AK the past three weeks. The 1DX is the best AF camera I have ever used. ISO 800 requires no noise reduction and ISO 1600 very little to none when exposed properly. The speed of AF acquisition and tracking ability surpasses all other cameras I have ever used. I find the 1DX ergonomic layout a bit better than the 5D3, but I have only used/owned 1D series bodies prior. While the 5D3 is a great camera in its own right, I will be selling the camera to purchase another 1DX, preferring seamless integration of user functions, batteries, etc. when picking up the second body and lens. The 1DX dynamic range is approx a .7EV increase over the MIV. The buffer is very difficult to fill, and the camera writes like a rocket to the high speed CF cards. A number of participants had the 1DX with them as well, all were astonished at the results. Moreover, the out of camera color is the best I have seen to date. The lack of red AF in AI Servo is a bit disconcerting, but certainly not a deal breaker for this wildlife photog.

http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ead.php/101635

Chas

[David Stephens]

I'll dig around tonight to see if I can find that burst comparison between the 5D MkIII and the D800. It may have been user error, but the D800 wasn't even close in Raw vs. Raw.

The 32GB Lexar 1000x CF cards are $232 for two or $132 for one at B&H. They're fantastic.

[arash_hazeghi]

I'll dig around tonight to see if I can find that burst comparison between the 5D MkIII and the D800. It may have been user error, but the D800 wasn't even close in Raw vs. Raw.

The 32GB Lexar 1000x CF cards are $232 for two or $132 for one at B&H. They're fantastic.

I assure you it must have been user error. If you turn on NR or D-lightning the buffer depth reduces significantly, or if you shoot TIFF+RAW

I just saw the deal, it is sweet indeed. just ordered a pack of two thanks for heads up!

[Ofer Levy]

Thanks for the excellent input guys!
I am leaning towards the 5D Mark 3. Just ordered 2 Lexar cards from B&H - great price!

[Richard Mc Donald]

Suprised you had to ask this question Ofer given your experience.

Open both camera's .pdf Instruction Manual side by side, go to page 2 of each, read the short "Introduction" segment and you'll find your answer.

(FYI - the 5D III has a single DIGIC 5+ processor as opposed to the 1DX's DUAL DIGIC 5+ looking after AF so no, they are not the same).

Richard

[Ofer Levy]

..........

[Ofer Levy]

Richard,
If it was that simple there was no need for field reviews and user expereince....
I am always more interested to hear what people who actually use the cameras have to say rather than just read the manuals.
Cheers,
Ofer

[arash_hazeghi]

Suprised you had to ask this question Ofer given your experience.

Open both camera's .pdf Instruction Manual side by side, go to page 2 of each, read the short "Introduction" segment and you'll find your answer.

(FYI - the 5D III has a single DIGIC 5+ processor as opposed to the 1DX's DUAL DIGIC 5+ looking after AF so no, they are not the same).

Richard

Digic has nothing to do with AF functions. AF module has its own processor. the AF module of the 5d3 is exactly the same as 1DX (see my interview with Chuck Westfall)

the only major difference between 5D3 and 1DX in terms of AF is the battery power. The high capacity battery in 1DX can drive the servo in super telephoto lenses faster to achieve a faster AF acquisition.

[Richard Mc Donald]

I do own it as from last Monday.

Richard

Richard,
If it was that simple there was no need for field reviews and user expereince....
I am always more interested to hear what people who actually use the cameras have to say rather than just read the manuals.
Cheers,
Ofer

[Humberto Ramos]

Ofer, I have identical dilemma, I'm also using the mk IV, a huge step from 7D, the AF performance of the mkIV is far better then the 7D I used to own, better iso and a lot of better features.

If I had the money, would buy a 5D III for second body, but I don't have it, so my dilemma is to keep the 1D IV and wait like Doug said for a new 7D II (saving money wile waiting) or sell the 1D IV and buy a 5D III and wait for 7D II for second body, or last option Keep the mk IV and do some savings to get a 5D III as second body...

[Vikram Agrawal]

HI,
I am no photography expert by any stretch of the imagination so please take my input with a fistful of salt:
The 7D successor that people are waiting for ...new AF, high fps, better high ISO, higher pixel density... wouldn't that be a marketing disaster for Canon? As it would cannibalize the sales of 5D3 and potentially some 1DX. This, along with the recent firmware update for 7D makes me think that such a body could be at least 1 yr away. Happy to be corrected if my thinking is wrong.

regards

[David Stephens]

Think of the 7D as a gateway drug, sold by our "pusher" Canon.

Sports pros are going to buy the 1DX no matter how it deflates their bank accounts. With the loss of the 1D MkIV, us birders will look for something with relatively small pixels, but good noise performance, a great AF system and, if we're lucky, a good price. I'd be willing to bet that Canon will raise the price of the 7D MkII above $2,000 and may actually have more margin in that camera than a 1DX, given the much higher volumes that the 7D2 is likely to sell at.

[Jason Holzworth]

Hi Ofer, I think you purchased a 600 f/4 IS from me in 2010. Any how, I have 7d, 1d iv, 5d iii, 1dx. 1dx is the best. The AF is much more snappier in a good way at locking on.

I know wedding photography isn't avian or wildlife photography, but when shooting weddings I am noticing a difference in AF performance of the 1dx. Maybe it's that extra Digic IV chip they put in there? The 1dx is better at high iso as well.

Is it 2x better than 5d iii? if you have the money to spend, then it sure is.

[Richard Mc Donald]

After all these years with the MKII MKIII and MK IV I stand corrected Arash, I was of the belief that parts played by DIGIC processors included focusing control and AI.

Pity I still don't live in Newcastle Ofer othewise we could catch up and give you a spin with the 1DX, I'm sure it would sway your decision.

I had my second session with it this very early this morning on a billabong newly found and not visited before, the AF is outstanding.

Here's an interesting review on both camera's AF by Roger Cicala from Lens Rental ... http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012...-canon-cameras

Richard


Richard

Digic has nothing to do with AF functions. AF module has its own processor. the AF module of the 5d3 is exactly the same as 1DX (see my interview with Chuck Westfall)

the only major difference between 5D3 and 1DX in terms of AF is the battery power. The high capacity battery in 1DX can drive the servo in super telephoto lenses faster to achieve a faster AF acquisition.

[arash_hazeghi]

After all these years with the MKII MKIII and MK IV I stand corrected Arash, I was of the belief that parts played by DIGIC processors included focusing control and AI.

Pity I still don't live in Newcastle Ofer othewise we could catch up and give you a spin with the 1DX, I'm sure it would sway your decision.

I had my second session with it this very early this morning on a billabong newly found and not visited before, the AF is outstanding.

Here's an interesting review on both camera's AF by Roger Cicala from Lens Rental ... http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012...-canon-cameras

Richard


Richard

Hey Richard,

Cicala's article is not really relevant to what we do in terms of avian in flight in AI-servo mode, it is more about AF accuracy for static subjects in single shot mode. For birds in flight there are so many other factors and overall photographer and technique is a much bigger factor than the camera.