Finally! Real critiques!

[LeeOtsubo]

I've been looking for someplace like this for a long time. I've been on too many forums that are either filled with drive-by flames or meaningless platitudes. It looks like this place is populated by real people with real passion for real photographs.

I made this at Bosque last year during a 1-day workshop with Robert Amoruso. It looks like it has potential but I'm not sure why I feel like it can be greatly improved. This is the full frame but I've considered cropping the small cloud out of the top to raise the horizon. Thanks for any insights you can provide.

Canon 20D, 1/8", f/22, ISO 200, 17-40L @ 28mm.

Lee

[Jim Poor]

I am torn on the crop. On one hand a middle horizon isn't preferred, but on the other, the cloud you would be cropping out is also reflected in the water.

I played with the color a little. Converted to LAB and moved the A & B channels in at each end by one box.

[Robert Amoruso]

Lee,

Nice to see you here. Overall the image is fine, the problem is it is too dark. Below I reposted my version from Photoshop.

I ran my basic workflow (PSCS3) on it below. The Grid is a Rule of Thirds cropping tool that I use. I cropped some off the top and bottom. Horizont near the middle is OK when you have symmetry top and bottom like you do with reflection images like this.

LEVELS ADJUSTMENT: You already had the white and black points well established but I brought the mid-tone (middle) slider to 1.68 and that brightens up the image.

CURVES ADJUSTMENT: I used the linear contrast preset which is a minimal s-curve.

HUE/SATURATION ADJUSTMENT: Saturation 10% but OK w/o it too. May be a bit over-saturated here.

SELECTIVE COLOR: 2 points black in the Neutral and Black Channels adds a bit of "pop" to the image.

I like where you cropped the tree on the right and it acts nicely as a frame. Notice that in my crop, I have about the same distance from the top of the tree to the image edge on the top and bottom.

Great effort. If you start back at the original, it will look super. I a glad we finely got some sun right at the end of the day. And for anyone wondering the golds in the foliage looked like that for real as the sun, just before setting broke out of heavy cloud cover as it cleared.

[Fabs Forns]

Welcome Lee and thanks for your words!!!!

Hope we can really help you improve :)

I'm not a landscape expert but It think this needs a little pizazz, mainly due to flat light and almost centered horizon.
I downloaded it, cropped a bit on top and cloned the little cloud out. The went into Selective Color (Image>Adjustment) and added +13 of blacks to the neutral for a pop. Then a slight curve. After that, Brilliance and Warmth filter in Nik Color Efex, the to end, Render>Light Effects>Omni light to illuminate the sky and sharpen.

[Robert Amoruso]

Three versions all posted at the same time. That's cool.

[Jim Poor]

We must all sit around the computer like vultures waiting for new posts :D

[LeeOtsubo]

Thanks Jim, Robert and Fabs,

The reason I left it dark was because it was dark about that time. That was my last frame from Bosque. I think Fabs has hit the proverbial nail on the head. It needs "pop" and I think what you've done has given me a direction to get started again on this image. Sometimes, after looking at an image for too long, I suffer from a serious mental constipation and nothing seems to come out. You've all given me some great ideas.

Robert, I enjoyed your workshop. I always figure if I learn three new things, I'm doing well. From your workshop, I came away with about 6-7 things that I could apply right away.

Fabs, I was one of the people who crashed your wedding! Congratulations!

[Fabs Forns]

We must all sit around the computer like vultures waiting for new posts :D

Hahahahahaha, good one Jim!

Thanks, Lee, glad you were there, very special day!

[Robert Amoruso]

Thanks Lee for the kind words. Your recollection of the light level may be better then mine. I do like Fabs version though the edges are too dark for my taste as the above/below horizon match too closely in tonality. In a high rez TIFF for printing, you would be able to play with the sky/reflection mid-tones to retain this look and get better separation.

Nice work and I am glad you got so much out of the workshop.

[Alfred Forns]

Great threat !!!! Strong base image Like the slightly lighter renditions as long as the mood is kept Composition wise is strong and would not change a thing!! Would definitely go strong for the fine reflections !!!

[Lana Hays]

Lee.....welcome....good to see you. I was in the workshop.......I still want your car!!! I have a series from that night but not at last light. I like what Fabs has done as it does remind me of the "last glow" of light.

[LeeOtsubo]

Lee.....welcome....good to see you. I was in the workshop.......I still want your car!!! I have a series from that night but not at last light. I like what Fabs has done as it does remind me of the "last glow" of light.

I remember you! You're the one who liked my "chick magnet". My wife says she's taking the VW away from me if any more women drool over it. :D

I think the cool thing about digital is that it can be anytime of day (within reason) that you want it to be. I like the lighter treatments but my mind's eye remembers it being dark and cold.

[paul leverington]

Lee--For me there's nothing whithin the composition that jumps out at me and says "I'm what the picture is all about". Also you haven't got balance between right and left sides(It's weighted on the right). A duck or something else in the water on the left for example would have helped. Balance is the number one compositional principle to accomplish in a successful comp. And horizontal blance is the most important of the three axis. The horizon in the middle is an uncomfortable place for it to be. This also kills eye movement within the frame. It leaves one with the feeling of two pictures and not someplace for the viewer to "jump" off from or for the viewer to be "beckoned" to --(therefore creating dynamic movement). The Sky is nice but not so awesome as to include so much of it. Basically you have a nice backdrop here but you need a powerful compositional element to bring emotional interest to the shot. Even something like fog would help here. I think Fabs was trying to accomplish this fact with strong selective lighting. As a way to see this picture with a fresh face, rotate it in PS 90 degree's and see what you think. Sometimes this helps you see things you didn't before.

[Terry Eddington]

Lee, I feel your frustration that comes from having a photo you know can look better than it does. I prefer Fabs version of the 3 but feel each of them made improvements, just in different approaches. I'd love to have a strong anchor in the foreground but to offer a little more R-L balance, I wondered what a square or portrait crop would do. I couldn't get to portrait dimensions but here's a quick near square crop of Fabs version just to offer another idea:

[LeeOtsubo]

Unbelievable, more feedback! I can't keep up with all the great ideas. Paul and Terry, thanks for the critiques. Here's where I was headed when I read your posts:

Paul, I went back to that moment in my mind (what little remains of my mind!) and tried to remember what had captured my eye. The reflection and tranquility are what I wanted to show. I was there with great photographers, I was having a wonderful time and the scene reflected my mood.

A duck had been requested for the left side but costuming wasn't able to get a volunteer to sit in the water dressed in a duck outfit. :D So, I did what Terry did and cropped the left side to the edge of the main cloud formation. That, by itself, really helped focus the image more on the reflections. (at least, I hope it did).

After deciding what was important, it was easy to crop the little cloud to raise the horizon. I liked what Fabs did but it was a bit too dark for me so I went the same direction but not quite as dark.

I feel this version is much closer to what I was trying to convey. I may still go back and pump up the colors in the clouds a bit more. The top can probably be cropped even tighter. Thanks to everyone for their insightful and constructive feedback.

I'm planning a trip to Salton Sea this weekend for burrowing owls and a trip to the desert the first weekend in March. With the rains this year, the flowers should be magnificent. The 2nd weekend in March, I'll be in Phoenix for a 1-day with Artie and plan to stop in the desert for more flowers. If anyone from SoCal (San Diego) is interested, let me know and we'll try to hook up.

[Robert Amoruso]

I like the new version Lee. Good comments above.

[LeeOtsubo]

Thanks Robert,
Your earlier comment about our recollections of light levels got me thinking so I did some checking. Civil Twilight (sun 6 deg below horizon) was around 5PM that day. This photo was made at 4PM so it may not have been as dark as I remembered. Oh well, another senior moment. :D

I'm trying to control myself and NOT upload another 10-15 photos from that trip. It was one of the most productive trips I've taken in a long time. I tell people that Bosque in November is like a "free fire zone" with amazing subjects in every direction.

[hal bruce]

I've often asked myself why old Masters like Gainsborough frequently use a midline horizon and we photographers frown on it.
I think it's perhaps that where it works is where the lightness values are very similar. If you take a reading off the sky and off the foreground, it will likely work if the two are not more than one stop apart. Painters paint the two with equal intensity so we are
nor critical of the central horizon.
Here I personally like the mood of the trees in the original. The magical mood is somewhat lost in the lighter versions.
My preference is for the crop according to Terry and retain the "Old Master" appearance and mood of the original.
I do think that the image needs a definite border to finish it off.
Failing a matte, maybe a black line about 5 pixels wide on the web version. Lately I've been adding it all around to the canvas
rather than encroaching on the image. In PS the Crop tool does this easily and quickly.
eland

[LeeOtsubo]

I've often asked myself why old Masters like Gainsborough frequently use a midline horizon and we photographers frown on it...

Eland,
Thanks, that's the first time I've been compared to the Masters! :D:D:D

I'm going to try Terry's square crop as well as a border. I avoid borders because they grate on my sensibilities but many people seem to like them. I'll have to try it to see how I feel when I see it in print.

[Arthur Morris]

Two cents from Mr. Famous Bird Photographer :): I much prefer the horizontal versions with the top cropped. Great work by JP and RAM. And thanks to all for chipping in and especially to Lee for his kind (but true :D) BPN comments. Some of the stuff that is going on here (like this thread) gives me goose pimples.

later and love,

artie

[paul leverington]

More to it than that Elan. It's true that Gainsborough did approach the middle of the frame with his horizons, but most were a fair ammount lower than that. In a lot of his portraits(full body) the horizon may be considered right at that middle line, but because the persons body fully enters both top and bottom halves, it then ties the two together. And this is the key. To divide a composition into two separate entities causes a divided interest, which then leads to the conclusion of the viewer that the picture has no point to be made. Now in this picture for instance -

http://www.abcgallery.com/G/gainsbor...borough24.html

There can be no doubt what the subject and purpose of the composition is trying to convey. Yet the horizon is smack dab in the middle. By the way this also has a lot to do with the fact that a full length standing person can be made to have a greater presence by putting their naval at near viewer eye level.(Check out a girlie magazine if you don't believe it) Our gaze falling mid body is why he did these horizon placements in many of his works of full length portraiture. Same rule works for birds too. Uh-Do birds have belly buttons?
http://www.abcgallery.com/G/gainsbor...borough82.html
In this one our attention is guided to the man because of his light glowing tones and mass, and then recedes to the "back door" created by the lighter sky. This technique ties foreground to background as if there was an imaginary teeter toter going fore to aft, giving the composition depth, which then overwhelms the two dimensionality of the middle horizon bisecting the composition. This, in addition to the figure fully occupying both halves, totally takes care of any divided interest. Another point of interest in this painting, which is a killer comp technique, is the use of the distant sky so as to lead the eye out of the picture, therefore ending the journey into this new world. This is the "backdoor" as I mentioned earlier.

http://www.abcgallery.com/G/gainsbor...sborough2.html

See how the two halves in this one are tied together by the different compositionl elements(better to call them units). The winding water way leading off into the distance--the trees massing into both top and bottom--the use of light and dark tones to create depth, therefore having more compositional weight than the near mid horizon takes away. Notice I said "near" mid horizon. I think for real he was puttin things to our eye level with his use of the mid horizon and realized in all his paintings that he needed to use one trick or another to keep the comp working.
http://www.abcgallery.com/G/gainsbor...borough53.html
http://www.abcgallery.com/G/gainsbor...borough52.html
http://www.abcgallery.com/G/gainsbor...borough50.html
http://www.abcgallery.com/G/gainsbor...borough13.html
Get the picture?

So its not a matter to never cut a composition exactly in half with a horizon or any other graphic line, gradation, color, or whatever--the thing to remember is not to do it in a way that kills interest in the subject by dividing that interest. You must as an artist employ other techniques to re-tie that division and/or overwhelm it with compositional units that outweigh its effect.

Paul

*Gainsborough was an absolute master in composition--I'm glad you cited him for example. Definitely one of my favorites.

[John Van de Graaff]

My main thought is that the entire middle of the image along the rear shore line is too dark -- which was indeed addressed
John Van de Graaff

[Dennis Bishop]

Here I am, seven and a half years later. I came upon this thread in an unlikely way, and I don't know if it'll be seen again. Nonetheless, I'm throwing in my thoughts. My version was in large part influenced by Paul Leverington's comment about the image being unbalanced (heavier on the right). I noticed a lot of comments about the horizon being in the middle. I always compose using Divine Proportions rather than the Rule-of-Thirds. That puts my horizons closer to the center than the R-o-T would, and I did crop some from the top to move the horizon up a bit.

I live in the Out of the Box forum, so I'm used to taking liberties with what comes out of my camera even though I do feel strongly about making what's in the camera be as good as possible. To put some more weight on the left, I first duplicated the layer, selected the trees and their reflections and the grasses and deleted everything else. On another duplicate of the original (below that one), I used the mask for a selection, expanded it a few pixels, and did a Content Aware Fill to give me nothing but sky and water. Then, I grabbed the left end and moved it further left to get the clouds and their reflections farther over that way. That made them pretty long and narrow, so I stretched the top a bit and the bottom even more.

In Photoshop's Camera Raw Filter, I made selective adjustments to the saturation and luminance of many of the colors. Blue was the only color that I desaturated some. There tends to be less contrast in the distance, so I did a custom increase in contrast with Curves and applied a reflected gradient mask to reduce it in both the sky and water near the horizon. I think the enlarged clouds and their reflections gives the image a bit of pop without altering the sense of darkness.