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Thread: Head Angle Fine Points

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    Hi Artie,
    First, thanks for sharing this.

    Well after looking back and forth for five minutes I remembered that with Firefox if I hit f11 It goes full screen and I can see both pictures at the same time. Then there was dust on the screen.
    Finally, I can see the difference. AN is better. The light and the eye. I like seeing the definition in the nostril too. (?? Is it a nostril on a bird??)

    Take care,
    Clive

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    Clive, YAW.

    All, we are in full agreement: AN is far better for the reasons noted :) Way to go guys. Where are the girls???
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    I'm new to the site, but have just read through this whole thread.

    Just when I thought I was developing a better eye on most of the pairings, that last pairing was too subtle for me to see a meaningful difference. So I still have lots more learning to do.....

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    I want to publicly thank everyone who has contributed to this thread - now that I have "HA on the brain", I'm constantly considering it before I press the shutter button.

    So yesterday I was watching some ducks through my lens and trying to explain proper head angle to myself (in my head) as if I were teaching someone else. While doing so, I thought of this question:

    Which is more important - head angle relative to the bird's body or head angle relative to the camera/viewer? Why?

    My gut feeling is that this is context sensitive and there really isn't a "formula", but I'd love to hear what others have to say.

    thanks
    Charles

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    Image B with the bird (if not mistakenly) looking at the viewer is the more impressionable shot. I prefer the first shot however for a better understanding of anatomical detail in the beak.
    Last edited by Bob Pelkey; 01-10-2011 at 08:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Pelkey View Post
    Image B with the bird (if not mistakenly) looking at the viewer is the more impressionable shot. I prefer the first shot however for a better understanding of anatomical detail in the beak.

    Bob, Welcome. I think that you missed this in the first pane:

    Important note: this is an ongoing thread. You can learn a lot by scrolling down but if you have played before and are re-visiting it would be best to go to the last page and scroll up to see the latest offerings.

    My opinion on the first quiz is in Pane 18 on page 1. That was back in August.

    See below for the latest quiz.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Scheffold View Post
    I want to publicly thank everyone who has contributed to this thread - now that I have "HA on the brain", I'm constantly considering it before I press the shutter button.

    So yesterday I was watching some ducks through my lens and trying to explain proper head angle to myself (in my head) as if I were teaching someone else. While doing so, I thought of this question:

    Which is more important - head angle relative to the bird's body or head angle relative to the camera/viewer? Why?

    My gut feeling is that this is context sensitive and there really isn't a "formula", but I'd love to hear what others have to say.

    thanks
    Charles
    First off, it sure sounds as if you are learning :)

    To answer your question, the two are melded together--as you guessed it--depending on the situation.... There have been lots of quiz examples that have encouraged folks to realize just that.....
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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    Here is image AO.
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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    And here is image AP.

    Which do you prefer and why?

    ps: I have been swamped in the office writing several articles, writing the Lens Align tutorial, working hard on the blog almost daily, and editing four new guides written by others :)

    Now the non-stop travels begin but at least I will have lots of new images....
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    This one looks so obvious I am probably wrong. I like AO as he is looking directly at me. He seems to be curious and as if is posing. The other he has a lack of interest and just seems bland.

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    John, if you are wrong so am I. I looked at this last night and AO from a HA perspective seems much more engaging to me. Looking at it again nothing is changed. I go with AO.
    Jon Saperia

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    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think AP is better - because the head is turned slightly toward the camera, and is more inline with the bird's body. The eye and bill are both sharp, and stand out well against the background.

    AO does have a more engaging head angle, but the bill is slightly less sharp and there is a shadow on the bird's neck feathers. The head is also not inline with the direction that the bird's body is facing.

    So I prefer AP in this one for those reasons.

    Charles
    Last edited by Charles Scheffold; 01-16-2011 at 08:24 PM.

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    Hi, All.

    AO is my clear preference, and is a great illustration of why I prefer head-turns towards the camera, rather than parallel to the sensor.

    For me, the difference is about engagement, which is a concept dominated to such an extent by our human-to-human interactions that we respond to creatures anthropomorphically. Even where creatures have different structures to humans, e.g. having eyes on the sides of their heads, we still measure degrees of engagement in terms of human structure. A sideways-facing posture will therefore seem relatively uninterested - or even 'shifty' - compared with one in which the subject is turning to face us.

    In this case, the Spoonbill can see the photographer equally well in both shots, since the head-turn in AO is not great enough to bring binocular vision into play. I this were a human subject, though, particularly since the body is angled away from the photographer, there would be a real sense that the subject is making an effort to connect with the photographer. Perhaps this is why over-the-shoulder poses are so popular in portrait photography.

    Also, the combination of angled-towards-us head and angled-away-from-us body creates a curve in the horizontal plane that adds interest compared with the 'flat', 2-dimensional subject in AP.

    Finally, I think Charles raised a key question about which is more important, HA relative to the bird or HA relative to the camera/viewer. I agree with Art that these combine in a situation-dependent manner but, if I had to choose one or the other, I would definitely go for HA relative to the camera/viewer. Many photographers would delete images that have a HA relative to the camera/viewer off by only one degree, but tolerances for HA relative to the bird are invariably much greater. With a great head like the one in image AO, I'd put up with almost any body angle!

    Mike.

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    Mike,

    Excellent points - you make a strong case. I DO like the head angle in AO, but there is something about AP that I really like as well. Aside from the apparent lack of engagement with the viewer, about the only problem I can see with AP is the catchlight in the eye. It's a bit harsh and I would probably tone it down if this were mine.

    I'm curious to see what Artie's answer is...

    Charles

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    AO for me. definitely. Reason being it shows off the bill so well. Instead of spoobill, if it was a shot of, say, a heron, then I'd have prefered AP.

  16. #316
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    When I first saw these images last week I couldn't decide which image I preferred so I decided not to vote. But now after looking at the images again and reading the opinions of others I've come to a decision, but only barely!
    I do prefer AO over AP. The main reason I like AO more is because you can see the unique shape of the bill. Other than that, I think both images are equally good in terms of HA.

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    AO for me as well, primarily for the reasons in the last couple of posts. The unique shape of the spoonbill is demonstrated by the greater head turn and in this case makes it a more dramatic image. I will put up with the slight shadow on the neck for the broader view of the bill.

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    I like them both and kept both but give a slight edge to AO as we can see the dorsal surface of the bill. Do note that with the bird angled ever so slightly away from us AP is the textbook "right" head angle.
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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    This is Image AQ.
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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    And this is Image AR. Which is the better head angle, and why?
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    I like AR as the bird seems more alert and I don't like that I see a partial eye in AQ, it seems distracting to me. I'm not wondering what AQ sees but rather I find myself looking for the other eye. In AR I do wonder what the bird is looking at.

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    John, I agree with all your points and add one more. In AR, my preference, the HA makes the beak more interesting - you can see the red patch better.
    /jon
    Jon Saperia

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    I also prefer AR. I agree with the points that John and Jon made. Another reason is because the birds left eye in image AR takes up more space than the eye in AQ due to the HA.

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    I choose AR - it provides a clear, pleasing view of the bill and one eye. The partial eye in AQ is distracting as is the "tall and narrow" nature of the pose. AR feels more balanced.

    thanks
    Charles

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    AR for me, too, for all the reasons above.

    I find AQ 'neither fish nor fowl' - it sits uncomfortably between a direct head-on pose and a general turned-more-towards-us-than-sideways-on pose.

    Mike.

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    As a Gull lover I agree with AR for the same reasons as above

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    Glad to see that everyone likes AR better for all the right reasons. Here the rule works: with the bird facing you either right down the lens barrel or 45 degrees (as here) is generally best... Back soon.
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    Default Real Life Test

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    Would you keep this one? Why or why not?

    Did I keep it? Why or why not?
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    I wouldn't keep it - hard for me to tell, but the head does appear to be angled slightly away from the camera. It's most certainly tilted downward in the camera's direction. Not very engaging. Makes the bird look like he's got a blank stare on his face. Perhaps the camera angle was not low enough? Not sure.

    I'm quite positive you would delete it as well, for the same reasons.

    thanks
    Charles

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    Being positive is a good thing....
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  31. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Scheffold View Post
    I wouldn't keep it - hard for me to tell, but the head does appear to be angled slightly away from the camera. It's most certainly tilted downward in the camera's direction. Not very engaging. Makes the bird look like he's got a blank stare on his face. Perhaps the camera angle was not low enough? Not sure.

    I'm quite positive you would delete it as well, for the same reasons.

    thanks
    Charles
    I agree and would add one thing. The out of focus leaf in front of the beak is distracting just because it is so close to where you eye is focused.
    Jon Saperia

  32. #332
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    Since you asked "would you keep this one?" I would have to say that I would but I probably wouldn't post it on a forum or site. Mostly because it's a fairly common bird and therefore the opportunity should arise to get a better image. Although, for some reason I find that standards are set a little lower with rarer birds.
    "Did you keep it?" Well you kept it long enough to post it here!
    As already noted, the HA isn't optimal. Not much engagement. The OOF leaf and twig are easy to clone out so I wouldn't worry about those.

    Lovin' this thread! Thanks for taking the time to guide the learning :)

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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    I kept the image and like it. I wish that the head angle were a bit better but.... The light is lovely and soft. The bird features the beautiful ultramarine blue lores of high breeding plumage. The image is sharp. I like the gray BKGR, and I do not mind the branch. Removing it would be a snap.

    For my repost here I used an APTATS II trick and moved the pupil back about 4 pixels to make it appear that the bird was looking at me.

    Thanks all for playing :)
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    Interesting what you did with the pupil. Very neat trick!

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    Heh I'm wrong again! Artie you are starting to get tricky :)

    The repost is a HUGE difference - amazing what a little eye adjustment can do. Never would have thought to do that.

    thanks
    Charles

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    Hey Guys, I would have never thought of it either. Robert O'Toole saw the image and suggested it. I have forgotten that it was in APTATS II.
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    Good teamwork

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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    Been swamped with travel to Greece and Homer :)

    Which is the better head angle: Image AS?
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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    Or image AT?
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  40. #340
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    I think AS is better because the head is more parallel to the camera resulting in the beak and head looking larger. You can also see the shape of the bill more clearly. Also, the eye is looking more towards the camera in AS resulting in a more engaging bird.

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    Tough one! In my opinion, they are both strong images on their own. When placed side by side however, I feel that AT is the stronger image. In AT, the head appears to be in line with the breast and the eye is more engaged with the viewer. AS is the "classic" bald eagle profile image.

    I could go either way... but if I have to pick one it's AT.

    thanks
    Charles

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    AS is by far the better image for me, but not necessarily due to HA. This reminds me of the slimming 'before and after' shots where various small changes emphasise the difference.

    The main difference between the shots is the Eye Angle, which is hugely better in AS (angled directly at the viewer rather than forward along it's bill).
    In addition, though, AS has the following advantages:
    1. better framing of the head (more space in front than behind, unlike AT)
    2. better head size within the frame (the smaller head in AT looks a bit 'lost')
    3. better 'shape', with the head extending forward of the body
    4. better pose, with the slightly downturned head causing the feathers on the back of the head to raise more
    5. better eye positioning within the frame (see below)
    6. better illumination of the head (which is about light angle, not HA)
    7. better contrast
    8. better sharpness.

    Ignoring all the above, I think AS has a slightly better HA due to the following:
    1. better outlining of the bill and head
    2. more natural head position (AT is bolt upright, which looks awkward)
    3. more dynamic (diagonal) 'line' due to the downturned bill.

    Sorry for going off-topic, but I wanted to share my conclusion that one of the best positions for a bird's eye in the frame is three-quarters of the way up the centre vertical. I've been treating this as a 'compositional rule' that's as valid as the Rule of Thirds for some time now, and find it particularly useful in portrait-format shots. [As always, any such rule is just a guideline that doesn't work for all shots.]

    I'll send in a separate post on my compositional thoughts when I get some time.

    Mike.

  43. #343
    Lifetime Member Jay Gould's Avatar
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    AT - the eagle is more engaging.
    Cheers, Jay

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    I see why so many say AS, the light works a bit better on the beak, eyes and rest of the image. The 'stare' is a bit more engaging in AS as well. I think it is the light hitting the eye and beak in AS a bit better that makes it look so good.

    If these were my images, I would take a hard look at AT and see if I could do something with that. I often like images where the bird looks more alert as the result of an extended neck as is the case with AT. In this particular case, AT is not quite as 'natural' looking to me.
    /jon
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  45. #345
    Doug Robertson
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    Artie, I have learned an incredible amount today as I have read the whole thread and walked through all the photos. For this pair:

    AS - The catchlight in the eye is much more pleasing to me. The lower front end of the beak works for me too.

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    I think AT has the better HA because it is turned more toward the viewer. Regardless of which image I like better the question is: "Which one has the better HA: …" AS or AT.
    Andrew

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    Agree HA in AT is turned a few degrees more towards viewer - hence better, but it has worse eye contact towards viewer and not aligned with bill
    Although worse HA, personally prefer AS

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    Both are fine images. For me the questions of which is the better head angle and which is the better image is clear cut: I far prefer AS, the first one, on all counts. What some folks missed is that in AS the bird's head is angled slightly towards us my preferred 2-3 degrees (in most cases for a pose like this). In AT the head is turned towards us too much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Merwin View Post
    I think AT has the better HA because it is turned more toward the viewer. Regardless of which image I like better the question is: "Which one has the better HA: …" AS or AT.
    And to think that I answered both with "AS." :)
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  50. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Robertson View Post
    Artie, I have learned an incredible amount today as I have read the whole thread and walked through all the photos. For this pair:

    AS - The catchlight in the eye is much more pleasing to me. The lower front end of the beak works for me too.

    Hey Doug, Pretty good for a newbie here. Welcome!
    BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.

    BIRDS AS ART Online Store: we will not sell you junk. 35 years of long lens experience. Please e-mail with gear questions.

    Check out the new SONY e-Guide and videos that I did with Patrick Sparkman here. Ten percent discount for BPN members,

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