Lens advice

[AdityaPadhye]

Hello
I am looking to buy a new super tele and was all set to buy the new Canon 600mm IS II. Its about to release here as well within the next two weeks. I have the cash ready for the lens but am now having second thoughts whether spending so much on a single item would be worth it.
My current setup includes a 7D, 5D Mark III, Canon 300 2.8 IS II, Canon 1.4x and 2x III tc's, Canon 100-400 and various other smaller lenses.
As per my calculations I can pick up a 1DMK4/1DX + Canon 500mm f4 IS (older version) for roughly the same amount as the new 600mm. If I get the 1DX then I can sell off the 5DMK3 and recover some more money.
Would love to hear your views regarding this quandary

[Don Nelson]

I think you would do well purchasing the 500 Mk I and a Mk IV.
Arash will be selling his 500 I shortly.

[arash_hazeghi]

If I were you I would do the following:

Buy 600mm MKII this lens will serve you for many years to come and it will hold its value. The camera bodies will drop in price significantly and become almost worthless in a few years. The more you invest in glass an the less in camera bodies the better. Nothing beats a hand holdable 600mm lens if it's within your budget.

Sell your 5D3, 7D and 100-400 buy a used MK4. A used MK4 will work better for avian subjects than either camera, especially for action, flight and creating dynamic images.

The MK4 with the 600mm prime lens is a killer combo IMO.

[Roger Clark]

Hello Aditya,

What is you main subject, and how much do you travel by airplane? Bulk and weight can be an issue when flying. Having the new 300 f/2.8 (how long have you had it?) have you found that you really need more reach? Or do you need more performance (e.g AF speed)? Given the cameras you list, I would go for a 1D4 first and get more experience with the 300 f/2.8.

Roger

[Alan Stankevitz]

Aditya,

I think you first need to ask yourself what the intended use will be for your new setup. I originally owned a 500mm lens but it was after owning it for a few years, I upgraded to the 600mm and have never regretted it. Personally, I photograph all sizes of birds and I appreciate the extra reach of the 600mm lens for smaller-sized birds such as warblers. If however, I were mainly photographing larger sized birds or other wildlife from close distances, a 500mm lens would suffice.

As far as your current 5D Mark III and 7D...They are more than capable of capturing most birds either in flight or stationary. The Mark IV will give you 10fps and the 1DX will give you 12, but unless your main objective is to photograph fast-flapping ducks, you should be fine with what you have. The 1DX should give you great low-noise performance but you will pay a penalty for a lower-resolution sensor, plus the 1DX hasn't even been out yet...I'd wait before making any moves on camera bodies.

Also, more than likely a new 7D will be out sometime this year as well. It will probably have the newer autofocus system found in the 5DM3 and 1DX and maybe they'll bump up the fps. Something to think about.

Alan
www.iwishicouldfly.com

[AdityaPadhye]

Thanks everyone for their valuable inputs!
Roger, I do travel a lot by airplane but I have the Kiboko 30L, that should fit in two super teles and still be allowed in cabin right? I've had the 300 2.8 for about four months now, the main issue I am facing with it is the slow AF when used with the 2x III TC :( . Its incredibly sharp when used with the TC but the AF is disappointingly slow, I've missed out on quite a few action shots due to it. The bare lens is amazingly fast but then I loose out on details when I have to crop a lot.
Alan, the main usage of the lens will be tigers and birds . The main reason I thought of buying the 600mm in the first place is I want to avoid using TC's, I've seen how fast and accurate the bare lens performs.
Arash's point about bodies loosing their value and glass retaining theirs makes sense. I think I will sell off the 100-400 and put in more cash to buy a 1DMK4 for starters

[arash_hazeghi]

Aditya,

Air travel with super telephoto is not a problem. You can easily take a 600 in a ThinkTank airport security rolling bag. It's standard carry-on size. I travel with my 500 all the time. Doug travels with his 500 and 600 (ThinkTank can fit both together).

[Roger Clark]

The problem with air travel is not just bulk, but weight. Many flights I take, Alaska or international, are weight limited, so that can be a real problem. Of course the new 600 weighs less, and so does the 500 than the older models. But still, either can easily put one over the weight limit on many flights these days.

Aditya, the 1DIV gives about twice the AF speed as the 7D, so upgrading camera bodies will help your situation. But we've now seen reports that the new version II telephotos are very slow with 2x TCs. AF speed should be related to f/ratio, so an f/2.8 lens + 2x should be similar in speed to f/4 lens +1.4x.

Roger

[arash_hazeghi]

Interesting Roger,

The carry-on weight limit is 40-50lbs depending on airline so should not be an issue. I travel about 2 times per month on average mostly for work with various airlines and never had my carry-on weighed in the past 6 years... Luis and I traveled to WA on Alaska with several big lenses including 800 back in Feb. No issues.

Also the AF speed is not just determined by the f number. That is one factor but there are others. The 1.4X is great for flight on any f/2.8 or f/4 lens however the 2X is useless for flight on even f/2.8 lenses.

The 500 f/4 with 1.4X focuses MCUH faster than a 300 f/2.8 with 2X, I can create almost any flight image I like with the former however the latter is useless for flight, especially against varied BGs.

This was discussed before, but I wouldn't pick a 300 as a primary birding lens. It is too short, unless you shoot at the zoo or use a blind or baiting all the time. It's great for wildlife and also as a backup lens for close range subjects though :)

[Arthur Morris]

On the weight issue. As one who travels a lot with lots of gear it is rare that you are busted in the US for weight but in most cases it is 40 pounds. I have traveled with my Thin Tank bag coming in at more than 50.... Overseas is another issue. You can and will be busted for weight. A bribe in the form of a proffered tip may help at times..... Otherwise do your best :). More in the next pane :)

[arash_hazeghi]

On the weight issue. As one who travels a lot with lots of gear it is rare that you are busted in the US for weight but in most cases it is 40 pounds. I have traveled with my Thin Tank bag coming in at more than 50.... Overseas is another issue. You can and will be busted for weight. A bribe in the form of a proffered tip may help at times..... Otherwise do your best :). More in the next pane :)

How much do you usually have to bribe Artie ?

[Arthur Morris]

How much do you usually have to bribe Artie ?

In Africa a $10 or $20 tip has gotten me on the plane when I did not feel like arguing :). Probably bBest not to use the word "bribe" though....

[Arthur Morris]

Aditya,

It is impossible for anyone to know if purchasing this or that piece of gear will be "worth it to you." I get that question all the time [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Arthur/AppData/Local/Temp/DefaultEmoticons/Emoticon1.gif[/IMG].

What do you do with your images? Do you sell them? What do you want out of life? My philosophy is to enjoy every moment, every breath. I just got my very own 300 f/2.8L IS II and am awaiting a new 500 and a new 600 and a new 1DX. As noted on my blog I have been loving my 5D III.

Wil this gear pay for itself over time through the sale of images that I could not have made with my old gear? Surely not. But I enjoy the finer things in life and feel a bit obligated to stay on the cutting edge of new gear technology. I like to let folks know my thoughts on the new stuff and show them the images that I have made with them. Unlike my friend and colleague the acclaimed John Shaw I do not try to do the math on whether a new lens will be financially justifiable. Hey, different strokes.

Learn as much as you can about the new gear and then make your decision.

Arash's comment on lenses holding their value is an excellent one. Folks are selling their old 500 IS lenses every day for more than they paid for them.

If anyone is interested in getting a 500 or a 600 quickly at the lowest price around please e-mail me here for details: samandmayasgrandpa@att.net

[David Stephens]

Speaking from point of view of a serious non-pro, I look at my usage to determine if a piece of equipment is "worth it." Do I reach for it almost every time that I go out shooting? If I'm traveling, no matter the purpose, am I tempted to load it into my ThinkTank Airpoint bag and carry it on the flight?

I also consider the likely residual value of any investment. I figure that bodies will lose around 2/3 of their value in the three or four years that I'll own them. With L-series Canon lenses I figure that they'll only lose 20% to 30% in the same period and I'm likely to keep them for decades instead of year. My Series I 500/f4 is worth what I paid for it two years ago. The economics of the Series II lenses is an unknown. Given the greatly increased prices (reflecting the cost of improvements AND the dramatic unfavorable yen-dollar changes), I think that used Series II lenses are likely to be selling at 80% of new in a couple of years. Someone concerned about budget, but needing a great lens should consider a used 500/f4.

Later this year I plan to buy the 5D MkIII to replace my MkII and move to the 600mm f/4L IS USM II. I've taken around 40,000 clicks with my 500mm and consider it critical to my improving images.

[Arthur Morris]

Hi David, I agree for the most part but right now the value of used 500s is inflated due to the high cost of the 500 IS II.... AF on the 5D III is light years better than on the 5D II and better than on any previous Canon body. If you'd like to order a 5D III at the lowest price around and get it quickly shoot me an e-mail.

[Roger Clark]

Interesting Roger,

The carry-on weight limit is 40-50lbs depending on airline so should not be an issue. I travel about 2 times per month on average mostly for work with various airlines and never had my carry-on weighed in the past 6 years... Luis and I traveled to WA on Alaska with several big lenses including 800 back in Feb. No issues.

Arash, I was not referring to flying in the continental US or lower 48 to Alaska. Flying on float planes in Alaska to remote locations has very limiting weight restrictions, as does flying on most airlines in the rest of the world. KLM from Amsterdam to Africa is a good example, with a 26 pound limit. I've been boarding as the staff stands by with scales targeting anyone with large bags or seems struggling with a bag. I've seen people have to check their bag containing a 500 mm lens. I've been on other airlines where the weight limits were 12 pounds and even an air lingus flight to Ireland where the limit was 8 pounds and every bag was weighed. We have it lucky in the US.

Also the AF speed is not just determined by the f number. That is one factor but there are others. The 1.4X is great for flight on any f/2.8 or f/4 lens however the 2X is useless for flight on even f/2.8 lenses.

I agree, but f/ratio is a main factor.


[QUOTE=arash_hazeghi;805949]
The 500 f/4 with 1.4X focuses MCUH faster than a 300 f/2.8 with 2X, I can create almost any flight image I like with the former however the latter is useless for flight, especially against varied BGs.

Well, I find the 300 f/2.8 version 1 +2x on a 1D4 plenty fast. For example, this very fast flying pygmy falcon , which was moving a frame width per 1/5 second even though I was panning, the 300+2x kept focus:
http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...7-Pigmy-Falcon

This was discussed before, but I wouldn't pick a 300 as a primary birding lens. It is too short, unless you shoot at the zoo or use a blind or baiting all the time. It's great for wildlife and also as a backup lens for close range subjects though :)

The Serengeti is hardly a zoo. But I do agree that a 500 is very nice. I choose a 500 when weight limits are not a factor and the 300 when it is. It is nice to have a choice. But a 600 may not fit as carry on on smaller planes.

Roger

[AdityaPadhye]

Hi Arthur,
No I do not sell my images (they are nowhere good enough to sell :P) and do not plan on selling them in the future. So I do not expect my gear to pay for itself, but as you said I love to use newly released stuff
Ok so after reading all your replies and some calculations I've decided to go for the 600mm now , had a talk with the dealer and he is saying that only two lenses are coming to India. Am hoping I will be able to get one of those or else will have to wait for the next lot.
I have a Tadoba trip planned on the 20-25th June, will be great if I get the lens before that
I'll sell off the 100-400 and save some more money for a 1DMK4 later

[Doug Schurman]

Aditya,

Sounds like a great plan to get the 600 f4 II now. I think that lens is going to be the top choice for many bird photographers.

I also use the 7D and 5D3. I would really pick that lens first over getting the 1D4. Plus in the next year or so we will see other versions of cameras that hopefully will be considered better than the 1D4.

Another thing to consider is that with the 5D3 you can focus with an F8 max aperture if there is a non reporting teleconverter in there. I many times use the 5D3 with the 500 F4 IS, the canon 1.4 ext and a non-reporting Kenko 1.4 extender. The focusing works very well on this combination. I've tried it with the 7D and it does not work very well at all but the 5D3 focus system is much better. It is a clear indicator that Canon is purposely turning this off so they can sell longer lenses.

[arash_hazeghi]

hey Roger sorry I did not think about international flights. You should try Artie's solution though, I bet $10/lb will set you on those flights

I agree 2X can lock in some conditions e.g. bird flying across the frame with sky BG, but it will be a pain with varied BGs...

The new 500 is almost as light as the old 300 BTW, something to look into... The new 300 is quite expensive so the old one has a good resale value.

[AdityaPadhye]

So the lens is ordered :P When are you guys there getting delivery? My dealer is saying I should have the lens by 5th this month

[Arthur Morris]

Mazel tov! Do let us know when you get it. And be sure to post some images.

[Roger Clark]

I agree 2X can lock in some conditions e.g. bird flying across the frame with sky BG, but it will be a pain with varied BGs...

Locking on is more a function of camera body. I've not had any problem with 1D4 locking on to what I want regardless of lens (300 f/2.8 + 1.4 or 2x or 500 f/4 + 1.4 or 2x) in a wide variety of conditions. The falcon image I linked to previously was at about 10 meters and traveling some 20 to 30 degrees per second and I was panning (so it was close to minimum focus distance). It was approaching at about a 40 degree angle, so the approach speed was quite significant: I calculate about 3 to 4 meters per second near minimum focus distance.

Roger

[arash_hazeghi]

IMO the 2X does not work with varied BGs, unless you happen to be pre-focused at the right distance. I think Doug Brown and other flight photographers can also confirm this, that's why we don't use it for flight. It's a no go IMO I don't recommend it for flight...


Good luck Adyata hope you get your 600 soon! I can't wait to get mine.

[Doug Brown]

The 600mm II is a smart choice! I'm expecting one shortly (along with a new 500 II). Flight with a 2x is a dicey proposition at best; maybe it can do an OK job with birds against a sky BG but not against a varied one. The 2x slows things down too much (and I've shot the 300mm f/2.8 II with the new 2x III).

[David Stephens]

Hi David, I agree for the most part but right now the value of used 500s is inflated due to the high cost of the 500 IS II.... AF on the 5D III is light years better than on the 5D II and better than on any previous Canon body. If you'd like to order a 5D III at the lowest price around and get it quickly shoot me an e-mail.

Yes, I'm looking forward to the Mk III a bunch. I WILL give you a call when I'm ready to buy.

I think that the Series II prices are so much higher than the Series I that the Series I resale will be strong for the foreseeable future, at least for the 500mm. The new 600mm II being useful hand held may really make the old 600mm a hard sale, BUT the price diff is enormous. The old 500mm will not be "obsolete" for a long, long time and I think it'll be sought after by those that just can't swing either the S-II 500mm or 600mm.

[AdityaPadhye]

So the lens is finally here :D first one in India me thinks :P

[David Stephens]

Congrats Aditya. I'm green with envy.

Looking forward to pix.

[arash_hazeghi]

Jeez! I can't wait now.

[Ofer Levy]

But we've now seen reports that the new version II telephotos are very slow with 2x TCs. Roger

Hi Roger,
Would you be able to post a link to where I can read about this?
Thanks,
Cheers,
Ofer

[Roger Clark]

Hi Roger,
Would you be able to post a link to where I can read about this?
Thanks,
Cheers,
Ofer

If I am remembering correctly, check the gear section on BPN for posts about the new teles.

Roger

[Doug Schurman]

Hi Roger,
Would you be able to post a link to where I can read about this?
Thanks,
Cheers,
Ofer

Here's a thread where this topic was discussed
http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ug+brown+400mm

[Ofer Levy]

Here's a thread where this topic was discussed
http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ug+brown+400mm

Thanks for that Doug!
I am not happy to hear about the performance of the new lenses!
I am happy though that I didn't listen to those who told me about 6 months ago not to buy the Canon 800 f5.6 as the new 600 f4 will be a much better choice. After using the Canon 800 f5.6 extensively for the last six months I can tell that this is my dream lens and I am grateful to those who told me to go ahead and buy it.

[arash_hazeghi]

Thanks for that Doug!
I am not happy to hear about the performance of the new lenses!
I am happy though that I didn't listen to those who told me about 6 months ago not to buy the Canon 800 f5.6 as the new 600 f4 will be a much better choice. After using the Canon 800 f5.6 extensively for the last six months I can tell that this is my dream lens and I am grateful to those who told me to go ahead and buy it.

Hey Ofer that thread was about the 2X TC not the 1.4. I don't think anyone expected 2X to be usable for flight. The new AF system in 5D3/1DX and future cameras does not even support AF with 2X on f/4 lenses to begin with...it's dead in the water.

You need to compare the 600 MKII plus 1.4X III with the 800. hopefully I will test the 600 MKII with 1.4X III soon, I don't expect it to be much faster than on MKI telephotos, but honestly I can't complain about AF speed as is when I can grab focus on fast birds like this:

http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...over-in-flight

According to Canon AF accuracy has improved though given the micro controller in series III extenders being able to talk to the CPU in the MKII super telephotos. Also the 600 MKII + 1.4X TC III will give you a 840mm f/5.6 lens that is still significantly lighter than the 800mm f/5.6, has a closer MFD and has a closer long range limiter...

Stay tuned for a field report

[Ofer Levy]

Hey Ofer that thread was about the 2X TC not the 1.4. I don't think anyone expected 2X to be usable for flight. The new AF system in 5D3/1DX and future cameras does not even support AF with 2X on f/4 lenses to begin with...it's dead in the water.

You need to compare the 600 MKII plus 1.4X III with the 800. hopefully I will test the 600 MKII with 1.4X III soon, I don't expect it to be much faster than on MKI telephotos, but honestly I can't complain about AF speed as is when I can grab focus on fast birds like this:

http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...over-in-flight

According to Canon AF accuracy has improved though given the micro controller in series III extenders being able to talk to the CPU in the MKII super telephotos. Also the 600 MKII + 1.4X TC III will give you a 840mm f/5.6 lens that is still significantly lighter than the 800mm f/5.6, has a closer MFD and has a closer long range limiter...

Stay tuned for a field report

Looking forward to it!!