True bird photography vs "workshop photography" - your thoughts please...

[Ofer Levy]

Hi all,
Came across this video and I have to admit it made me feel uncomfortable. I really don't think this should be considered as bird photography and I also feel photos taken this way should be tagged so people like me won't bother to view them and comment. Very similar to tagging posted photos of captive birds. Even the workshops with wild birds where the instructor arranges everything and the participants only have to click - don't qualify as bird photography IMHO. It is sad that people look for the shortcuts instead of going out there, exploring, thinking and creating their own images rather than photocopying the work of others and then signing their name.
I hope that young photographers will not follow this trend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbf7AaNzSys

Cheers,
Ofer

[Roger Clark]

Hi all,
Came across this video and I have to admit it made me feel uncomfortable. I really don't think this should be considered as bird photography and I also feel photos taken this way should be tagged so people like me won't bother to view them and comment. Very similar to tagging posted photos of captive birds. Even the workshops with wild birds where the instructor arranges everything and the participants only have to click - don't qualify as bird photography IMHO. It is sad that people look for the shortcuts instead of going out there, exploring, thinking and creating their own images rather than photocopying the work of others and then signing their name.
I hope that young photographers will not follow this trend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbf7AaNzSys

Cheers,
Ofer

Interesting. I would also ask how many use calls? I have also heard passing references to calls on BPN and from other photographers. How many images on BPN were obtained with the use of calls? I would call the workshop event, as shown, practice.

(I have never used a call for obtaining a photo of any animal.)

Roger

[Ofer Levy]

Interesting. I would also ask how many use calls? I have also heard passing references to calls on BPN and from other photographers. How many images on BPN were obtained with the use of calls? I would call the workshop event, as shown, practice.

(I have never used a call for obtaining a photo of any animal.)

Roger

Hi Roger, please don't discuss the use of calls in here as it is totally irrelevant - you can start your own thread on the use of calls.
Cheers,
Ofer

[Roger Clark]

Well,
Ofer, it seems calls are often used in workshops to get the birds to do something, whether a captive bird like in your video, or calling a wild bird. For example, read the first line of this thread posted today on BPN:
http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...eat-Horned-Owl
So, it seems calling and/or baiting would be similar, as opposed to true wild photography. I think either should be disclosed.
If not, then what are you implying is true bird photography?

Roger

[Daniel Cadieux]

If these photos were labelled as "captive and controlled environment" I'd have zero issues with it. If they were passed as wild bird photos then that is something else and I would have a beef with that. Some people have no easy access to these types of birds and if that is how they can photograph them then so be it, all the power to them. I'm sure a good time was had by all of them, and I'm sure lots of them learned tons about photography too.

True birds + true photography = true bird photography

[Jim Neiger]

Ofer,

Like you, I don't really enjoy photographing captive birds and I don't include captives in my workshops. It takes the fun out of it for me when they are not wild and free. On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with it. It's probably a good way to learn a bit about action photography.

[Ofer Levy]

True birds + true photography = true bird photography

Hi Daniel,

In a zoo the birds are true and the photographey is true but it is ZOO PHOTOGRAPHY....

In a similar way, in those workshops the birds are true and the photography is true but it's WORKSHOP PHOTOGRAPHY and not BIRD PHOTOGRAPHY.

Bird photography is a much more complicated craft. which involves hard work, dedication, creativity and passion. Paying someone to do all the hard work for you is not what I consider true bird photography.

[arash_hazeghi]

I think this is more entertainment for participants than bird photography, anyone can pull a few frames of a captive bird flying at close range with a short lens and when the birds flies a given path over and over again. It doesn't require much skill and creativity in anticipation of action and planning for it, as Dan said it's probably a fun learning experience for those participants but the images have to be disclosed as captive for sure when asking for critique. Like Jim and Ofer I don't like photographing captive/trained birds or commenting on such photos.

[Roy Priest]

I think you are mistaking field craft for bird photography. Tell me the difference in technical skill needed to photograph birds at a workshop and tame birds at a beach for example. How about the loons at Lac le Jeune? The owls at boundary bay? Tell me the hard work needed to photograph breeding ducks and other birds that won't leave because of their youngsters.
Some of these posts are hypocritical as at least one of the posters leads or helps lead a workshop. If I do a setup in my backyard or in the woods is that "real" bird photography? Is it a workshop if I have a friend in the blind with me?
I think this post smacks of elitism. I have seen it before in other sports and hobbies I have had. If you don't do it my way you are not a "real" photographer, flyfisherman, falconer and the list goes on.

[dankearl]

I think it is what it is, a workshop.
Alan Murphy is one of the best photographers on this site.
He was teaching participants how to photograph BIF.
If somebody at his workshop posted one, I agree with you.
Simply conducting a workshop to teach people, is what it is, a workshop.
Nothing wrong with it in my opinion.

[James Shadle]

Ofer said:
"I also feel photos taken this way should be tagged"
I agree, images of captive animals should be marked as such.
Ofer said:
"It is sad that people look for the shortcuts instead of going out there, exploring, thinking and creating their own images rather than photocopying the work of others and then signing their name."
At the very least they are depriving themselves of exploring, thinking and creating, if this is the only type of photography they do. It's a different story if they are using it as a learning experience.
Ofer said:
"the use of calls in here as it is totally irrelevant"
I disagree, while it is not exactly the same it can be very similar.
Roy said:
Some of these posts are hypocritical as at least one of the posters leads or helps lead a workshop.
I conduct workshops and agree with Jim. Are you saying I'm a hypocrite?
If I do a setup in my backyard or in the woods is that "real" bird photography?
Why not, are the birds wild and free?
Is it a workshop if I have a friend in the blind with me?
It depends, are you teaching your friend and charging a fee? If so yes, otherwise no.

[Jay Gould]

Hi all,
Came across this video and I have to admit it made me feel uncomfortable. I really don't think this should be considered as bird photography and I also feel photos taken this way should be tagged so people like me won't bother to view them and comment. Very similar to tagging posted photos of captive birds. Even the workshops with wild birds where the instructor arranges everything and the participants only have to click - don't qualify as bird photography IMHO. It is sad that people look for the shortcuts instead of going out there, exploring, thinking and creating their own images rather than photocopying the work of others and then signing their name.
I hope that young photographers will not follow this trend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbf7AaNzSys

Cheers,
Ofer

Mate, I got news for you! As a workshop junkie, I think that video shows a lot of students trying to learn a craft in a manner best suited for those students; nothing more!

Why have you stretch this video which is clearly labeled workshop, to suggest that the persons shooting in the workshop are going to post their images and pretend they were shot in the wild? The video I watch had nothing to do with posting; why add it to the discussion?

I have been on workshops with senior members of BPN and calls were used; so what?

You apparently have a problem with workshops where the subjects are brought to participants instead of the other way around. Why?

I have done critter workshops in Australia where snakes, lizards, etc were brought to a central location for closeup/macro photography; what is wrong with that?

Raptors in Flight Workshop

Where, in the video, or in the title of the video did it say they were engaging in "wild" bird photography?

How were you misled? Perhaps your time was wasted because you assumed that the workshop took place in the field; you knows what happens when you assume!

Sorry Ofer; I love your work; this time you are in left field.

[adrian dancy]

It is all covered here http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...m-Time-to-Time

I agree with Roger that the use of calls is relevant and the administrators think so also, they have covered the issue. You will often see AM requesting folk to disclose relevant facts in the Avian Forum.

Raptor workshops have been going on since the year dot. Nothing new here.

I agree with Roy. There may be minor and subtle ways in which you can split hairs to reveal a difference between 'wild bird photography' and 'captive bird photography'. I imagine it's a lot harder photographing a flying captive raptor coming toward you from 20ft at 10/20mph than it is to photograph a heron at the local pond, Japenese Cranes from behind a fence, Snow Monkeys at Yamanouchi...the list goes on...and yes I agree that there is a certain amount of elitism and this is evident. This permuates through various aspects of bird photograhy. Im not sure how that can be managed.

My only gripe (slightly off topic, forgive me) is that the group in the video is too big for there to be any time spent on giving meaningful advice on camera skills etc. Having said that, I do not know the precise terms and basis of the photographic expereience offered which I imagine was still very enjoyable for all those involved. I would hope that the instructors advise on fieldcraft/ethics/law and the need to study up on individual species before taking their camera skills into the wider environment. I am certainly glad that those in the group are at least prepared to be guided as opposed to thinking they have all the skills (or not caring) and then wandering onto a marsh with a 500 lens over the shoulder or approaching a sensitive nest sites without adopting relevant protocals or best practice. That does not mean that they won't of course but at least there is an opportunity for guidance which in my view should be given.

[adrian dancy]

Jay ...missed your input here.

I could not have put it better myself ....and probably didn't

[Ofer Levy]

Jay, I am pleased you like my photography. All my photos were obtained based on my efforts alone. I spend days and weeks of hard work to get one image and I think I can call myself bird photographer and be part of this forum. (Birdphotographers.net)
Paying money to let others to bring the bird to you, put it on a perch for you and show you where to aim your camera - not really my cup of tea. If you enjoy doing that - go for it but I would like to see the letter W next to your images posted in here that were obtained in this way.
Posting them in the Eager to learn forum should be perfectly OK IMHO.
Cheers mate,

[adrian dancy]

Ofer

I repeat, and would urge that you to read the first paragraph of this http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...m-Time-to-Time
It refers to 'captive' birds and other matters such as the use of lures. If the admin/owners deem such photography appropriate for the 'avian' forum provided disclosure of relevant facts is made then you must accept it or take the matter up directly with admin IMHO. If you take weeks in planning wild bird shots then good credit to you but as I understand it the 'Avian' forum is still a critique and learning forum and you can still learn aspects of bird photography by such methods. Half of photography is no longer about taking pictures but processing them and I see no reason why Jay (who can speak for himself) and others cannot submit images of captive or baited birds for critique if the forum allows it.

Why stop at captive birds ?....we can throw processing into the mix as well. A lot of wild bird images do not reflect what the photographer actually saw...another issue of course but I hope you get my point which is, where do we draw the line?

I personally think that photographing birds in the wild state is more satisfying, on that we may agree, but I think the avian forum is more concerned with the final image. You have obtained, without doubt, some excellent images for your efforts. If effort is the central criteria here then I deserve a medal, I live in Manchester/Salford (The Rainy City, cloud everywhere nearly all the time!) all my efforts cannot bring sunshine or birds, so relatively speaking I could argue that you and many others have it already made and your skills not fully stretched. I probably have to work 10 times harder for an image but in the end it's the click that counts. Before anyone pipes up saying up 'you can get great images in terrible light etc etc' (which of course is possible) I would rebut by suggesting you lead a group here , I guarantee you will have an empty bus. People come from different backgrounds, different walks of life, finances vary as does opportunity, challenges vary from individual to individual and despite that many pro wildlife photographers still photograph captive birds albeit that one hopes disclosure is made. I would urge you not to disenfranchise those that are less fortunate (for various reasons) and who's passion may be equal to yours. With respect, I think that your views ( you are not alone here) which have a validity in their own right may also have a tendancy to make others feel just a little inferior.


Just my very humble opinion.

Kind regards


AD

[Mike Tracy]

I just spent 1/2 hour writing a long reply to this ridiculous question and deleted it. In the end who cares whats it called ? Isnt the purpose of any hobby and this workshop was geared towards hobbyists in the end supposed to be fun and fulfilling ? If your a true pro your work will reflect it and stand on its own. There is no need to be threatened by your own insecurities whether it be fishing, hunting, golf, etc. If one wishes to assemble with others that share a common interest, experience something new and maybe learn in the process more power to them.

[Greg Downing]

I'll comment since I am in the video and conducted the workshops. Alan and I conducted 6 such workshops at last year's birding and photo fest and they were advertised exactly as they were conducted - captive rehab birds in an easy to shoot learning situation. Each workshop was sold out and everyone learned something an got to photograph birds they would likely not find very easily in the wild. Nothing wrong with that as long as they know up front the situation and decide they want to do it. If you don't care for captive rehab birds then by all means don't photograph them, but I suggest also not to hold it against others who wish to do so knowingly. Rehab birds serve well for educational purposes as well as easy photo ops. I agree the images should be properly labeled but that's another issue.

I personally prefer free and wild birds myself but a learning situation is what it is. FWIW I have much less of a problem using rehab birds, which cannot survive in the wild, than captive wildlife that is raised simply for the purpose of being paraded around in front of a camera - completely a different issue if you ask me.

Thanks for the thoughts Ofer - I'm glad to see that your opinions are still passionately expressed. :)

[Rick Poulin]

I agree 100% with Roy. Get over yourselves guys. If you photograph a bird it is bird photography.

Just because you do it the "hard" way according to you does not make you any better than the next guy.

I am fairly new to this site and I admit I am in awe of many here but to me it seems the amount of post processing feels like cheating. Does that make it wrong or immoral - no. Just saying!

[Roger Clark]

“It can be a trap of the photographer to think that his or her best pictures were the ones that were hardest to get.
– Timothy Allen

[Grady Weed]

Man what a question! I can't think of anything much else that might start a firestorm of controversy than the one which was posed. I appreciate your view Ofer, really I do. But...this issue is not one that will deprive you of life or anything else that might hinder your presence here. We all have much more pressing issues to confront. Why must such issues presented cause so much heated debate? Are they really that significant to having a pleasing day out photographing nature around us and appreciating photography as a craft to share with others.

Greg Downing. Thanks for clarifying and sharing with us your point of view, especially if your the leader and seen in the videoed workshop.

Jay Gould! Your still passionate as ever! I agree with you 100%. I hope to meet up with you sometime.

James Shadle. Give me a big high five brother! Just so everyone knows; James and I grew up together. He also photographed my wedding 30 years ago. I trust him implicitly. I know we hold the same values and principles. So when he posts something or comments, I can pretty much trust he is on the level and giving all the benefit of the doubt he can and truly trying to see the other view point. Thats what makes this forum so much fun and educational.

Post that tend to present controversy or divide the audience in a forum like this do not help anyone. I agree Ofer that we should clarify our images as what they truly are, captive, workshop or wild. Then let the audience comment and enjoy them if they so desire. We all learn in different ways. If someone is trying to fool others and mis-represent their work, it will get found out in due time. When it it is they will be shamed, if it is so needed.

I have seen way too many sites, forums and photographers sully themselves and ruin their reputations by arguing over something which goes nowhere. Can we all do better? Lets keep this site where it belongs, on top of the educational heap! Please refrain from degrading ourselves by arguing.

[Jay Gould]

Grady, of course passionate as ever. When I stop being passionate about life I will be dead.

"meeting up sometime" is a promise I make to you (lighthouses) and have made to a few other BPN relatives including the Great Grandfather Artie.

Ofer's works and awards are so over the top that I cannot even understand this thread or how he went from a video about a simple teaching workshop to all of the stuff that he choose to add to "stir the pot" and WE (he and me and others) say Down Under. Yes, Ofer, I am talking about you - sort of in front of you!

Perhaps you wish to add an explanation why you started this in the first place.

[Doug Brown]

While I choose to not post captive bird photos, I don't have a problem with a workshop using them. Likewise I don't have an issue with people posting photos of captive birds as long as there is full disclosure. Not everyone has the time and/or the physical ability to locate and get close to raptors. I lead a workshop to Costa Rica, and we use fruit feeders to attract wild birds. Workshop participants get to spend their time honing their rainforest photography skills instead of devoting an inordinate amount of time to searching high and low for some of these bird species. I provide a target-rich environment for the participants and instruction on how to get the best possible images. They leave the workshop with new knowledge and a nice portfolio of images. The downside of this approach is that people come away with very similar frames, so we encourage workshop participants to explore the rainforest on their own. That way they get shots that no one else on the trip gets. It is those images that are typically the most memorable for workshop participants; they find the bird, determine the proper exposure, and capture the frame with no assistance from me other than the instruction I've given them in a group setting.

[Joel Eade]

Hi all,
................I also feel photos taken this way should be tagged so people like me won't bother to view them and comment.
.................It is sad that people look for the shortcuts instead of going out there, exploring, thinking and creating their own images rather than photocopying the work of others and then signing their name.
I hope that young photographers will not follow this trend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbf7AaNzSys

Cheers,
Ofer

Ofer,

No doubt you have one of the finest and most admired collection of images on this site and you have won your share of commendations and awards. You also have participated in the comment and critique process extensively. What is really sad is that now you come across so condescending that you don't want to "be bothered" looking at images from a workshop participant. That really is sad. You are very fortunate to have the time, financial resources, environment and skills to produce world class images I would think you would proudly and happily share your knowledge and skill with those who are just trying to learn in the best way available to them. Very few people have the option of obtaining images the same way you do, don't look down on them....help them enjoy and learn....that's what BPN is all about IMHO.

Joel Eade

[Ofer Levy]

Hi all,
First I am sorry if anyone feels offended by my views. I had no intention to hurt anyone. I simply feel that the hobby I love and respect so much turns into something else which I don't like. If anyone wants to do these workshops and take photos of birds when everything was arranged for him - that's his/her business. I don't think this is bird photography and I don't want to see such photos in the AVIAN forum. Period.
It is JUST my opinion, I don't make any decisions and we can all just enjoy whatever we are doing.
Cheers.

[Gary Esman]

My two cents worth on this subject. I started this hobby about 4 years ago. Within the first year I attended a workshop that was similar to the video presented. I must say it got me within 3 feet of a Peregrine Falcon, Great Horned Owl, Golden Eagle, American Kestrel and many others. There is simply no way I was going to experience that without the workshop and I learned a ton. Part of the reason I love this hobby now is from that experience. I have no problem with photographers attending workshops and posting their images here. They simply must follow the posting guidelines that have been clearly outlined. Most of us have full time (40 hours plus) jobs per week, families and other commitments that take time away from being in the field. The reason I joined BPN, besides Randy Stout twisting my arm till it snapped, was to learn. In my opinion that can be done from a shot that is staged or one taken in the field from a blind. In Michigan many species are unapproachable, but in Florida they will land next to you and pose. To me it all is a lot of fun and I enjoy the company I shoot with and other friends I have met though BPN just as much as taking a great shot. If you enjoy what you are doing, do it a little more, you may just smile.

Gary.

[Ofer Levy]

Gary, I had a look at your website and I can see you put a lot of effort into bird photography - some lovely images!!
As to workshops, I have no problem with whatever people want to do as long as it's legal. However, when people with little or no experience in bird photography get similar images to those of some of the best bird photographers in the world and then post them in AVIAN forum to get serious critique - it makes me very sad. There is so much more to bird photography than paying a professional bird photographer a few hundred dollars then just copying his work. Bird photography is not an easy hobby and not everyone can put into it what is needed - hard work, time, skill, creativity and talent. It is true for any other hobby and sport.
I am a memebr in Birdphotographers.net and post my images in the AVIAN forum as I would like to interact with bird photographers not workshop photographers or zoo photographers. Since the policy of this forum is to put a C when posting an image of a captive bird - I have no issue with that as I don't comment and don't waste my time with such photos. In a similar way there should be a W next to an image obtained in a workshop.
I hope people will keep it civil and won't attack me personally as this is totally not personal.
Cheers,
Ofer

[Jay Gould]

Offer, that is a valid explanation and certainly the use of a W just like a C deserves consideration.

If you had simply posted that suggestion either on it's own or linked to the workshop with this explanation, instead of what you did, IMHO a lot of angst would have been avoided. Cheers and keeping posting those wonderful wild bird images.

[Jay Gould]

Believe it or not, I thought about what you wrote as I was calling it a night and it bothered me enough to open my iPad to add this comment:

You said you want to interact with bird photographers and not workshop or zoo photographers ... As you don't "waste your time with such photos".

Mate, this may get me in trouble; I am an American-Australian who says what he believes and believes what he says.

I'll keep it civil; however if you don't have the time to waste with workshop images, like Artie's images during his workshops, and Doug's hummingbird images during his workshops, and all the members who are here to learn and post their workshop images to learn about HA, processing, and composition, just to name a few reasons why I and hundreds of other members are here to learn from the many Master Professional Photographers who consider teaching new photographers to become better photographers, teaching photographers who live in the middle of large cities and do not have the Blue Mountains and other great locations in their back yards, and their only access to wild birds is in a workshop, then IMHO you have become too big for your britches and perhaps you should start a forum limited to REAL BIRD PHOTOGRAPHERS that meet your exacting standards to become a member of your RBP Club.

BPN is a teaching forum; the best photography teaching forum on the Internet. If all of the Professionals had your attitude that helping students with their C and W images was a waste of their time, that would be the end of BPN as we know and love it.

I suggest you think real hard about what you have written, because what you are also saying is that you are not interested in receiving comments from all of the workshop and zoo photographers because let's face it , they - ME AND A LARGE PORTION OF THE MEMBERSHIP - are not REAL photographers By your standards.

Goodnight Ofer, it's almost midnight where I am; you are just finishing dinner. I hope you come to your senses sooner rather than later.

[Ken Watkins]

A very interesting thread for me, as I would never consider taking an image of any animal not situated in the wild.

Whilst captive or baited images maybe good photographs they do not for me fall in to the category of Wildlife photography.

As a mainly animal photographer I choose not to go to places like Sabi Sands as in my experience it is nothing more than a large zoo, I find it far more pleasurable to doing the finding myself or with the assistance of a guide in areas in which acess to the general public is restricted. If I do not get the best or most detailed shot then I really do not mind, as long as I obtained it by myself or with the assistance of my friends.

Just my opinion no offence intended.

[Grady Weed]

The purpose of taking a photograph and then posting it is to display it for critique and or to educate those who will view it. Am I right or what Ofer? If you take a photo and then post it here on BPN, either you want a critique or you are showing it off to those who will view it. Unless...you want to show others you are better than someone else. Which it is it Ofer? Seriously, think about it. You are coming off as a "I'm better than you are" type.

Personally, I've never attended a workshop. I can't afford to. I do have about $20,000 in my equipment, Canon. I take images because it helps me to appreciate my surroundings. I post them so others may critique them, to share and educate some who may never get to go out in the true wilds and find their own wild birds as they may like to.

I never heard those in the You Tube video express their desire to post their images here on BPN as taken in the wild with no help from others or as a professional. All of them looked older, city dwellers and just plain excited to see these birds close up for the first time perhaps. I highly doubt any in the video will be a threat to your livelihood, or mine either. Nor will they challenge you in this forum. So what is the harm? They have to learn somehow. How do you know they took a world class image comparable to yours? They will grow from this and move on to taken in the field images down the line. None of the birds looked stressed. In fact they are unable most likely to return to the wilds. So let these guys be.

I am not aware of a large number of images are being misrepresented in the Avian Forum. Perhaps a few slip by not divulging the true nature of how they obtained them. In time most individuals who take captive images will move on to make images in the wild, if for no other reason than to enjoy the excitement of doing so. How do you expect them to do so if you berate them or treat them with the disdain that is coming through in your post here?

Jay Gould put it squarely in very precise terms. It is something you should think over.

[Jay Gould]

Thanks Grady.

[Linda Dulak]

This reminds me about the initial fights between film and digital photographers. The film photographers looked down their noses at the digital photographers. Well, there aren't many film photographers left and BIF photography has come alive with digital.

Ofer, while you may have the time, money and opportunity to go to places where you can photograph beautiful birds, not everyone can do that. You are also young and I assume, physically fit. Not everyone who enjoys photography fits into that category. For many people, workshops and photography of captive birds may be the only way to get close to those birds to get an image that they can put on the wall and enjoy. In fact, this might just be the inspiration to get someone to pursue photography, practice and get out into the field to match that photograph with a truly wild bird. I can point to several experiences which encouraged me to develop better technique to photograph wild birds, be it BIF or multiflash for hummingbirds. It may not be your thing, but if it gets people interested in photography, I'm all for it. And why not give some encouragement to someone who only wants to improve his/her image? It's not going to threaten you or your profession to give some help to a newcomer, is it? I find it really arrogant that you would not take the time to comment on an image because it was done in a workshop or it was a captive bird.

Linda

[Ofer Levy]

Hi Gardy,
I guess you are not very active on AVIAN forum so you don't know me but people who know me will tell you I am always happy to offer my honet critique including reposting images etc. The reason I do that is my love and respect for this beautiful hobby.
Let me show you one example that demonstrates why these workshops are very bad for bird photography and REAL bird photographers:
Anyone can get a brilliant photo of a perched Peregrine falcon in one of these workshops especially since usually everything is been setup by a top nothch bird photographer.
I will spend the rest of my life trying to get a great image of a perched Peregrine flacon in the wild but will never get even close to what someone with little if any skill and effort can get in a workshop.
It basically has the potential to kill true bird photography and turn all our hard earned photos into nothing as in this world very few people care how an image was taken as long as it looks great....
Having said that, I realise I am just wasting my time in this discussion and make people call me names and abuse me. Money talks, some people will always look for instant results. Bird photography like many other wonderful things in life will turn into something else and that makes me very sad.

[P-A. Fortin]

Let me show you one example that demonstrates why these workshops are very bad for bird photography and REAL bird photographers:
Anyone can get a brilliant photo of a perched Peregrine falcon in one of these workshops especially since usually everything is been setup by a top nothch bird photographer.

Actually I can't.

And this is why I'm a member of this forum. Hopefully, if I ever have the chance to attend one of these workshops, I would post my "not-so brilliant" images here, stating the context in which it was taken, and I would get great advice from great photographers (and yes, that's you) on how I could have made it a brilliant photo. Then I would be better prepared for the day, if ever, on which I would manage to get close to one of these bird to take that once-in-a-lifetime photo.

That without being a threat to bird photography and its photographers.

[Grady Weed]

Ofer,

You are a very talented photographer. I do post in the Avian forum, I just do not comment as often as I would like to. As I said before, James Shadle and I grew up together. when he developed this site I was there. We spend time together when I go down to Florida from Maine. I used to live in Florida for 27 years. I love birds and a good photographic day out. I mention this only to let you know who I am and what I do, believe and stand for.

A body builder takes steroids and competes. Lets say he wins and does not tell everyone he takes steroids. A baseball player takes steroids, he wins a coveted award. Both when found out both are shamed and disciplined for it. The same is true in photography. When someone posts an image and does not reveal the true nature behind it, they will be shamed and possibly banned here if their is no "I'm sorry" afterward.

No one here wants to view images by someone who intentionally misleads others into thinking it is natural or wild, or be made a fool of or tricked into believing an untruth. We all agree on that. By the same token, no one on the You Tube video said anything about doing so Ofer. I agree also that "some" will always go the shortcut route and have the money to do so. I do not worry about those people. Neither should you. Why do so?

Give the public some credit. More than a few take notice of the hard won efforts of a pro and will buy the art work of that one. Not all workshops are geared toward putting you direct contact with captive birds. James Shadles workshops take you in close proximity to the Spoonies, with respect to their privacy, for lack of a better description. I cannot remember one person having a complaint on his workshops. He is also educating those who take them as respects to the birds and to take better images. Jim Neiger does the same from what I hear.

For some reason you are displaying a negative attitude on this. No one here thinks you are wasting time and certainly no one has called you names to sully your reputation or abused you. Remember: YOU ASKED THE QUESTION. Then you must be prepared to take the heat or at least be willing to let others have their views. This is not a life altering matter. No one killed the birds afterward or tried to pass off the images taken as something else.

When you broad brush a group or activity and put them in a defensive position, well...be prepared to taken to task over it. This web site is filled with people who take workshops. The owners of the web site give them. What did you expect to hear? No one wants to silence you or your thoughts. Just keep them relevant to the web sites offerings, education, sharing and learning. Bringing up such explosive topics via a link such as You Tube will only go nowhere. Why do it?

I think you have more valuable things to offer than this subject. Would not you agree? Bird photography will stand this test and many others to come, Long after we are all gone or this web site goes away. Enjoy your craft Ofer, let others do the same.

[Matt Fragale]

I've seen some fantastic photos of mountains by people like Ansel Adams who is a fairly well regarded fellow and I don't remember anyone chiding him for going where everyone knew the mountains would be. Beautiful photos can be taken at an event like the one in the video in the original post and I don't think that the situation diminishes the beauty of the photograph.

It's really a difference of perspective between people who are naturalists/birders who come to photography from there and others who were photographers first and came to nature photography because nature is pretty awesome to photograph. It's a subtle difference and I suspect that there is a range in between the extremes of what is important to each person; the natural experience / field craft or the final image or somewhere in between. For myself, I fall into the latter category. I love photography and the natural world is beautiful and I enjoy taking photos of beautiful things. For me, the final image is more important than how I got it, however I also believe in a situation like this forum where there is a group that recognizes the different level of skill required to get a good photo of a bird in the wild vs. a bird in captivity it's important to respect that and represent my photography for what it is. In the end, we are all photographers and to some extent, birders. We can help each other improve in both areas without being terribly judgemental about either, I think.

Ofer, I respect that you work hard to get your photos and many are truly awesome. If it is important to you to get people out into the wild, commenting on those captive bird shots could be your opportunity to suggest places where that bird might be seen in the wild and how you would go about finding and photographing them effectively in the context of offering your critique of the actual photo. How cool would it be if you inspired someone to get out there and they came back with a fantastic photo?

[Roger Clark]

Hi Gardy,
I guess you are not very active on AVIAN forum so you don't know me but people who know me will tell you I am always happy to offer my honet critique including reposting images etc. The reason I do that is my love and respect for this beautiful hobby.
Let me show you one example that demonstrates why these workshops are very bad for bird photography and REAL bird photographers:
Anyone can get a brilliant photo of a perched Peregrine falcon in one of these workshops especially since usually everything is been setup by a top nothch bird photographer.
I will spend the rest of my life trying to get a great image of a perched Peregrine flacon in the wild but will never get even close to what someone with little if any skill and effort can get in a workshop.
It basically has the potential to kill true bird photography and turn all our hard earned photos into nothing as in this world very few people care how an image was taken as long as it looks great....
Having said that, I realise I am just wasting my time in this discussion and make people call me names and abuse me. Money talks, some people will always look for instant results. Bird photography like many other wonderful things in life will turn into something else and that makes me very sad.

Ofer,
You said "It basically has the potential to kill true bird photography and turn all our hard earned photos into nothing as in this world very few people care how an image was taken as long as it looks great...."
That is a key to your argument. You have yet to define what is "true" bird photography, but it appears it is only completely wild images. How wild is wild? Is baiting and calling allowed in your definition? If so, why? Are "wild" birds in a city allowed, or only remote locations? Should all images be graded on a scale of difficulty to get? You seem to be saying difficulty is a key metric.

I will repeat the quote:
“It can be a trap of the photographer to think that his or her best pictures were the ones that were hardest to get.
– Timothy Allen

The counter to your argument, bird photography is rapidly growing, and probably in significant part due to workshops. I see workshops really helping people learn faster. That along with the internet and sites like BPN, people learn faster than ever before.

Workshops will not kill bird photography, nor any other photography. They help people learn to make better images and grow the field.

Are you afraid of the new competition all these up and coming photographers will bring?

Roger

[Gary Esman]

Gary, I had a look at your website and I can see you put a lot of effort into bird photography - some lovely images!!
As to workshops, I have no problem with whatever people want to do as long as it's legal. However, when people with little or no experience in bird photography get similar images to those of some of the best bird photographers in the world and then post them in AVIAN forum to get serious critique - it makes me very sad. There is so much more to bird photography than paying a professional bird photographer a few hundred dollars then just copying his work. Bird photography is not an easy hobby and not everyone can put into it what is needed - hard work, time, skill, creativity and talent. It is true for any other hobby and sport.
I am a memebr in Birdphotographers.net and post my images in the AVIAN forum as I would like to interact with bird photographers not workshop photographers or zoo photographers. Since the policy of this forum is to put a C when posting an image of a captive bird - I have no issue with that as I don't comment and don't waste my time with such photos. In a similar way there should be a W next to an image obtained in a workshop.
I hope people will keep it civil and won't attack me personally as this is totally not personal.
Cheers,
Ofer

Hey Ofer, trust me, no personal attack at all from me. Thanks for looking at the website, kind of under construction right now. I think that threads like this one open up great dialogue and we all know that communication is the key. I have admired your work for some time. The effort you put forth to obtain the images is commendable. That being said, not all of us have the time to devote to this hobby as we would like. Keep the great images coming.

Gary.

[Steve Canuel]

W & F will now be attached to all posted photos of birds who are "Wild & Free". Make sure you do not inadvertently use WTF as this has a completely different meaning and may cause some confusion.

[John Ippolito]

Workshops have indeed changed the access to many wild creatures. There was a time, not all that long ago when only serious students of bear behavior would venture out to capture relatively close images of brown bears and especially their more tenacious interior cousin grizzlies. Today, it is common for a participant with absolutely no outdoor experience( let alone bear smarts in the bush), to show up at a comfortable lodge with 3 very healthy squares, a comfy dry bed in a cabin, drinks , lattes, uploading images to friends back home in the evening, and a guide that will take the group to see bears at a range they would never dream of on their own.

My personal preference is to charter a floatplane with afriend, and spend a week or two out there by ourselves, camped with the bears, sometimes ferocious weather, and insects. For me, the images are richer because of the true wilderness experience, and self relianceneeded to survive in such situations. But here is where the quote, Roger references is so important.

“It can be a trap of the photographer to think that his orher best pictures were the ones that were hardest to get.
– Timothy Allen

My images may be harder won, and for me, personally rewarding, but are they somehow the real deal, and superior to a workshop participant who had the bears dished by a guide who was watching their backswhile they were lost in their viewfinders? I don't think so.
Workshops and tours have given many thousands of photographers/viewers a new, respectful appreciation for the big bears, which I believe makes them want to go back home, and spread the word, ultimately making thes visitors ambassadors that will help save the bears habitat., and in the process they often end up with spectacular images. My personal style of enjoying the outdoors is important to me only.

[Nicki Gwynn Jones]

Ofer, how fortunate you are that you have the talent and expertise to do what you do with no help - most of us need a little education and encouragement. I for one would never have got started without a couple of 'Captive Bird Workshops'. They are affordable and you can learn much about composition and flight photography to name but a couple reasons for attending one of these and for some folks this is all that they want as their experience of bird photography. I was lucky enough to attend Artie's Bosque workshop in 2008. What an eye-opener that was. I would never have understood what it takes to succeed in the field without that experience, and when I went to Costa Rica with Doug you bet I wanted to be taken to where the birds were, having flown halfway round the world and spent my hard-earned wages on the tip of a lifetime...
We all take something different from photography and this is as it should be. If you are taking images as a form of self-expression and to show the beauty and grace of your subject matter then what does it matter whether you have trekked for hours in the rain forest, attended a workshop or are standing in front of a setup.

[Ofer Levy]

Just to clarify - I have absolutely no issue with workshops/tours in which the participants are being taken to places where birds can be found - I think this is a great way of learning about bird photography and I think most of the people on this site who conduct workshops belong to this group. My issue is with those workshops in which everything is done for the participants - like the one featured in the video. Placing the poor owl in the fake nest so everyone can get an image of an owl in the nest - I find this to be wrong and undermining the whole essence of bird photography.

[Grady Weed]

Point well taken Ofer. And thanks for the clarification. I certainly hope this discussion had educated us all to respect the other guy's thoughts and point of view. I hope to see all of us posting great images for all to enjoy. Thanks again for the spirited comments. See you!

[Roger Clark]

Just to clarify - I have absolutely no issue with workshops/tours in which the participants are being taken to places where birds can be found - I think this is a great way of learning about bird photography and I think most of the people on this site who conduct workshops belong to this group. My issue is with those workshops in which everything is done for the participants - like the one featured in the video. Placing the poor owl in the fake nest so everyone can get an image of an owl in the nest - I find this to be wrong and undermining the whole essence of bird photography.

Ofer,
The workshop is about learning. There is more to bird photography than simple finding a bird in the wild. One must know and practice with your tools (e.g. getting to know your camera and lens) and what settings work best in certain conditions. A controlled workshop like that shown is a great way to learn your equipment. Then there is the whole issue of light. (Time for my soap box.) It seems that few photographers really understand light, especially novice/beginning photographers, and, I'm finding many pros. I find most photography books really teach little about light. Again, controlling conditions so students learn and understand the concepts is what it is all about, whether light, camera operation, head angle, body angle, wing angle, etc. All this becomes important in bird photography, and especially so in action bird photography. Controlling conditions enables the teacher to teach about specific conditions rather than hoping to find something in the wild. Sure the next logical step after those controlled basics would be real field experience with real wild subjects, but that is at a higher level. Have you forgotten that you too (and that goes for all of us) were once clueless about a camera and anything to do with operating one? After all, we were not born with genetic codes that told us how to operate a camera, let alone in an action scenario. One has to learn to crawl before learning to walk and before a jog and before a full sprint. Same with learning many other crafts.

Roger

[Jay Gould]

Just to clarify - I have absolutely no issue with workshops/tours in which the participants are being taken to places where birds can be found - I think this is a great way of learning about bird photography and I think most of the people on this site who conduct workshops belong to this group. My issue is with those workshops in which everything is done for the participants - like the one featured in the video. Placing the poor owl in the fake nest so everyone can get an image of an owl in the nest - I find this to be wrong and undermining the whole essence of bird photography.

And Mate, I have no problem with that limited comment. What I am still waiting for you to address is your apparent refusal to participate in the foundation of BPN; critiquing EVERYONE especially those that are newbies posting there - perhaps first - bird image even if was a "C" or a "W".

Suggestion to Management: Perhaps Avian should be limited to wild captures, and all "C" and "W" birds should be posted in the ETL forum! Just a thought for further discussion.

[Ofer Levy]

And Mate, I have no problem with that limited comment. What I am still waiting for you to address is your apparent refusal to participate in the foundation of BPN; critiquing EVERYONE especially those that are newbies posting there - perhaps first - bird image even if was a "C" or a "W".

Suggestion to Management: Perhaps Avian should be limited to wild captures, and all "C" and "W" birds should be posted in the ETL forum! Just a thought for further discussion.

Hi Jay, here is my standard comment on every image of captive bird or one that was captured in a workshop where everything was setup and you just have to click:
I allow you to copy and paste it on every such photo and sign my name.

"This is a bird photography forum. This image is not considered to be bird photography IMHO. Once you get a photo of a bird in the wild without paying someone to do all the work for you - please let me know and I will give you my honest critique on your work."

Cheers mate,
Ofer

[Jay Gould]

Hi Jay, here is my standard comment on every image of captive bird or one that was captured in a workshop where everything was setup and you just have to click:
I allow you to copy and paste it on every such photo and sign my name.

"This is a bird photography forum. This image is not considered to be bird photography IMHO. Once you get a photo of a bird in the wild without paying someone to do all the work for you - please let me know and I will give you my honest critique on your work."

Cheers mate,
Ofer

Mate, I hope management steps in at some point and educates either you or me. Frankly, our disagreement on what BPN is all about is about as wide as the Grand Canyon. Your exceedingly limited definition of BPN would destroy BPN.

Have you bother or do you even care to ask Artie, or James, or Robert A what there definition of bird photography consists of and whether they agree with you position that persons that post C and W images do not deserve a critique?

I doubt it!

[Ofer Levy]

Mate, I hope management steps in at some point and educates either you or me. Frankly, our disagreement on what BPN is all about is about as wide as the Grand Canyon. Your exceedingly limited definition of BPN would destroy BPN.

Have you bother or do you even care to ask Artie, or James, or Robert A what there definition of bird photography consists of and whether they agree with you position that persons that post C and W images do not deserve a critique?

I doubt it!

Jay, I am expressing my private views, I don't work for you and I can do whatever I want - comment or not comment without getting a permission from you or anyone else.
Looks like time is not a very rare resource for you - why won't you go out and do some bird photography...?

[Jay Gould]

Of course you don't work for me; you work for you and we are both members of the same organization.

Apparently your understanding of the purpose for BPN and mine, perhaps others too, differ.

This is NOT a bird photography forum; this is an educational photography forum with an emphasis on birds. There are many other forum including Landscape.

I do not do your kind of photography because medically I am unable to do so. My shoulder limitation is such, and other limitations are such, that I even sold my 300 f/2.8.

And, your are right, time for me at 69 (14 Feb) is not a rare commodity as you define it; however, I define it at 69 as a very rare commodity.

Your private views about how BPN should be viewed and what should and should not be critiqued are no longer private once expressed. Once expressed you have to take the heat if there is is heat to be applied.