Definitely not a bear

[Stan Cunningham]

I posted one like similar to this last year, but I think my images greatly improved this year. Spent last weekend with Bill Forbes in Amado AZ photographing bats, both nectar feeding and insectivores over his pond. Used his phototrap (phototrap.com) which I use a lot for carnivores at night and hummingbirds during the day.
Canon 5D Mark II, 17-40L set at 40mm, 1/250 sec but the flashes set at 1/16 is what sets the speed. ISO 400
Unfortunately I set up too close for some photos as I lost some dof closest too me as in this pic. However it's still one of my favorites and wondered if you guys would make it a "keeper".
Thanks as always.
Stan

[jack williamson]

Wow! Way to go Stan, this is extremely good. I would have liked to have seen his right wing spread a little away from his body but this is certainly a keeper. great shot. How many flashes?

Jack

[Harshad Barve]

killer BG and pose here , excellent
TFS

[Ofer Levy]

Fantastic behaviour and action shot!!!

[Brendon Cremer]

stunning image very well captured!

[Robert Amoruso]

Nice work Stan. I would have liked to seen a bit loser framing on this to have included the flower more but do note you mentioned this above. Definitely a keeper.

[Arthur Morris]

Definitely a keeper. Killer tongue. Please confirm that you did not press the shutter button for this image. Could you have been asleep when the image was made?

[Ofer Levy]

Definitely a keeper. Killer tongue. Please confirm that you did not press the shutter button for this image. Could you have been asleep when the image was made?

Personally I see no problem with remote control photography. Even if he was fast asleep when this shot was taken he still had to be very much awake to get everything else but clicking. Observing and learning the behaviour, planning the shot - determining composition, placing the flashes, exposure and so much more. It is a far more difficult and sophisticated creation than following a bird on the beach laying flat on the belly. The result is a totally different league IMHO....

[Steve Canuel]

Neat shot and some cool behavior. I especially like the hint of blue in the wings. It adds to the cool, night time atmosphere.

[Stan Cunningham]

Thank you all for your kind comments.
I did not press the shutter, but did have to go through all the steps Offer mentioned. For those interested, Bill Forbes at Phototrap.com does run bat photo workshops and individual work. And one can shoot many birds there as well. Set up for nectar bats takes about an hour, more if you need to go find a flower up in the mountains, and Bill can help you quite a bit with that. I followed his lead totally last year, and we worked together on several shots this year. I stay up at least a few hours (midnight or so) after the bats start arriving to readjust flashes, beams, and even aperture as it always seems to require it.
I was not sleeping on this one, as I remember seeing it the first night, but some others I really like I very well could have been sleeping.
James, I used 4 flashes on this set up. The next night I illuminated a whole flower stalk (around 7 florets like these 2) and used 5, should have used a couple more. Still learning.
Thanks again to all, and the night may have looked cool Steve but this is AZ in August, probably was around 90.
Stan

[Arthur Morris]

Personally I see no problem with remote control photography. Even if he was fast asleep when this shot was taken he still had to be very much awake to get everything else but clicking. Observing and learning the behaviour, planning the shot - determining composition, placing the flashes, exposure and so much more. It is a far more difficult and sophisticated creation than following a bird on the beach laying flat on the belly. The result is a totally different league IMHO....

Hey Ofer, I did not say that I had a problem with remote control photography, though in fact I do :).

I agree with much of what you had to say except for one major point where I will need to disagree: once the flowers were framed it was the bat that determined the final composition, the wing position, the pose, the placement in the frame, and the tongue position. It is in a totally different league for sure, but that league is much more craft than art. For me, pushing the shutter button sets photography aside from craft. As craft, the image above is superb. This topic has been covered previously (somewhere...) in the discussion of the multiple BBC honored and winning Snow Leopard images so if you wish to continue the discussion please start a new thread in General Photography (and let me know).

[Arthur Morris]

Thank you all for your kind comments.
I did not press the shutter, but did have to go through all the steps Offer mentioned. For those interested, Bill Forbes at Phototrap.com does run bat photo workshops and individual work. And one can shoot many birds there as well. Set up for nectar bats takes about an hour, more if you need to go find a flower up in the mountains, and Bill can help you quite a bit with that. I followed his lead totally last year, and we worked together on several shots this year. I stay up at least a few hours (midnight or so) after the bats start arriving to readjust flashes, beams, and even aperture as it always seems to require it.
I was not sleeping on this one, as I remember seeing it the first night, but some others I really like I very well could have been sleeping. James, I used 4 flashes on this set up. The next night I illuminated a whole flower stalk (around 7 florets like these 2) and used 5, should have used a couple more. Still learning.
Thanks again to all, and the night may have looked cool Steve but this is AZ in August, probably was around 90. Stan

Hey Stan, While I do appreciate all of the hard work that goes into this type of photography I do--for the reasons noted in my response to Ofer's comments above--have a problem with photography contests awarding prizes to folks who were or who could have been asleep at the moment the image was made.

Lastly, who is James? (I think that you meant Jack.)

[Ofer Levy]

Hey Ofer, I did not say that I had a problem with remote control photography, though in fact I do :).

I agree with much of what you had to say except for one major point where I will need to disagree: once the flowers were framed it was the bat that determined the final composition, the wing position, the pose, the placement in the frame, and the tongue position. It is in a totally different league for sure, but that league is much more craft than art. For me, pushing the shutter button sets photography aside from craft. As craft, the image above is superb. This topic has been covered previously (somewhere...) in the discussion of the multiple BBC honored and winning Snow Leopard images so if you wish to continue the discussion please start a new thread in General Photography (and let me know).

Hi Artie, it is fine to agree to disagree and I have no intention to start a new thread.
I will just say, that I am sure Stan placed the flowers with a good idea as to how he would like the comosition to be (more or less). Furthermore, he had to crop the image to create a pleasing composition. I am not sure I see the difference between this and any flight shot that you or I have taken...
We don't have any control over the "wing position, the pose, the placement in the frame and the tongue position".... All we do is place the centre focusing spots on the flying bird and fire like mad. Is this more "ARTISTIC" than what Stan has done in here? I really doubt that.....

[Ofer Levy]

It reminded me of this image. Please let me know why this image is more "artistic" than Stan's amazing photo keeping in mind I wasn't there when this Buff-breasted Paradise Kingfisher triggered the camera in my similar multi-flash/Phototrap setup.....
http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ise+Kingfisher

[Morkel Erasmus]

Lovely image Stan, for sure a keeper! Agree with Robert's (and your own) nits.

This kind of setup always intrigues me, and interesting points noted from both Ofer and Artie. I will not go into a craft vs art rant here, but will only say that I have to agree with Artie in that I don't necessarily agree that competitions should consider phototrap/remote-setup images for their top honours.

As a side-note, there is a guy from Namibia who won the most prestigious competition in South Africa a few years ago with images from Etosha captured using the camera set up in a remote control little car, and he was viewing live feed from the camera and then still "deciding" when to press the shutter via remote. He got amazing low-perspective shots of lions, elephants, giraffes etc. This is in another category than "phototrap" setups I would say, and sort of creates an even bigger "grey" area between the kind of phototrap Artie has a problem with where you set up and leave everything to the triggers and the kind of "normal" photography most of us indulge in...always food for thought as the line of what is allowable keeps being blurred by the availabillity of new and better technological aids...

[Rachel Hollander]

Stan - Congrats, the tongue out makes this image. Thanks for explaining the set-up and process.

Rachel

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Artie, it is fine to agree to disagree and I have no intention to start a new thread.
I will just say, that I am sure Stan placed the flowers with a good idea as to how he would like the comosition to be (more or less). Furthermore, he had to crop the image to create a pleasing composition. I am not sure I see the difference between this and any flight shot that you or I have taken... We don't have any control over the "wing position, the pose, the placement in the frame and the tongue position".... All we do is place the centre focusing spots on the flying bird and fire like mad. Is this more "ARTISTIC" than what Stan has done in here? I really doubt that.....

For me, there is a lot more skill involved in seeing a bird flying towards you, waiting for it to get into the "zone," acquiring focus, and making a few images in anticipation of a great wing position. For me that is a far cry from making an image while you are asleep.

[Ofer Levy]

For me, there is a lot more skill involved in seeing a bird flying towards you, waiting for it to get into the "zone," acquiring focus, and making a few images in anticipation of a great wing position. For me that is a far cry from making an image while you are asleep.

There is nothing 'artistic' in "seeing a bird flying towards you, waiting for it to get into the "zone," acquiring focus, and making a few images in anticipation of a great wing position"...it is all simple technique which is quite similar to what a hunter does with his rifle...
As to your statement that there is a lot more skill involved in getting bird in flight - again I have to disagree. I have done a lot of flight photography as well as some multi flash/trigger photography and I can say that BIF is almost like a children's game when compared with the skill and even "artistic" aspect involved in multi flash/remote triggering technique.
BTW - I don't recall seeing any multi flash and/or remote triggering images from you - do you have any experience in any of the two ?

[Arthur Morris]

I have done lots of multi-flash stuff with hummers. And gotten great results with the help of the late, great Linda Robbins. We sell her guide. BTW, she is very much alive, just disappeared from bird photography. No sleeping at the hummer set-ups. And tracking the little darters also requires skill. I am thinking that there are not a lot of folks who will agree with your opinion that flight photography is like a children's game.... I find flight photography extremely challenging and stand by my statement that it requires skill. Please post the next great flight image that you make while you are sleeping. Otherwise, a simple request: please let's discontinue the argument here. We disagree.

[Ofer Levy]

Here is a great flight shot I made while I was sleeping. Is it less 'artistic' than any of the flight shots you got while you were fully awake?......

[Arthur Morris]

It is a great photograph but the only skill required was in setting up the gear. That is a craft.

[Ofer Levy]

It is a great photograph but the only skill required was in setting up the gear. That is a craft.

Here is the "only skill" needed to make this image - which took me about 5 days:
1. Find the bird in the rainforests of North Queensland.
2. Observe it's behaviour for a few days.
3. Pre-visualizing the final image based on my observations.
4. Creating the BG by photographing grass in the area and printing a 90x60 cm print.
6. Positioning and manually setting 5 flashes - 3 aimed at the area where I predicted the bird will be flying through and two on my artificial BG.
7. Setting the phototrap.
8. Positioning the camera in the right distance and settings for the exposure.(all manual of course)
9. Determining the frame and composition.
10. Go to bed.....

[Arthur Morris]

You get an A+ for your craftsmanship. Now you can go back to sleep.

[Roman Kurywczak]

Hey Stan,
Won't get into the trap debate but I still think this is an excellent image and a great moment captured! Very nice to see!

[Stan Cunningham]

WOW, a flame war erupted while I was at work.
I don't really care if one considers me a craftsman or artist, I just want to produce the best pictures of my subjects possible. I have no problem with Art considering it a craft. But it's a very hard craft/art to learn and master which is what I think Ofer is saying.
I think with respect to nocturnal species, a trigger is a necessity if they are moving quickly. And since my goal is to increase my students and the public's awareness, then I use what tools are available and am thankful they are there. But I use the same techniques for hummers so ......... But anyone that can push the shutter with the anticipation of the wing location of an animal that beats it's wings 60 times a second is fooling themselves , and of course it's the flashes that stop the action not the shutter. But knowing your work Art (I have your hard copy book, and 2 of your pdf books and learned much from all) I'm sure that you are referring to a gliding hawk, etc. No disrespect intended just showing there is a lot of similarity whether you push the trigger or a machine does.
I don't enter many contests and will respect the opinions of those that think they should not be considered the same, but I'll camp with Ofer in that remote trigger photography is very difficult, and still requires the skill or knowledge of many of the subjects (proper exposure determined with histograms, particular concern with the background, proper placement and speed of flashes, etc.) we consider make a good photographer. It also allows us to photograph an event in nature that would almost never happen when one is waiting camera in hand, or happens at such speeds that we could not snap fast enough (ie. catching a rattlesnake striking with fangs extended, a jumping spider in mid air, a flying bat at night, etc). And waiting to get an animal to accept your set up with flashes all around often takes longer than waiting for one in a blind. I didn't sleep near as much as I would have liked either evening.
Thanks again for the comments and the viewpoints.
Stan