Forum Participation Question

[Desmond Chan]

I have been a moderator her on the site for over 3 years now. I posted this poll mostly because of what Hilary commented on......people posting images but not commenting on others......so I was wondering if this was due mostly to participants or members. [snip]Put yourself in my shoes.......would you want to comment on someones images who wants your opinion yet doesn't feel they want to become a member for a prolonged time and become part of the community? Mods don't get paid for this! We are volunteers. My time is becoming more and more precious and scarce......yet it still gives me satisfaction in helping others by critiquing. [snip]
Why should they spend their time critiquing those who only "use" the site and don't want to become part of the community?

With all due respect, Roman, you should take that up with the owners. If you want to know the rates of paticipation between paid and non-paid participants, I think you should also consult the owners. Although you said: " I posted this poll mostly because of what Hilary commented on......people posting images but not commenting on others......so I was wondering if this was due mostly to participants or members", your poll and your responses tell another story. I don't see how your poll could answer your question.

[John Chardine]

I've been following the poll and voted but at the time did not leave a comment. My vote was 6 months. However, Roger and P.-A. above (and maybe others) give good arguments for a one year "honeymoon" period and I am inclined to change my vote to 1 year.

Regarding P.-A.'s point about critiquing, the educational value of BPN derives from several ways of using the site. In those who want to learn, you will be able to feed back the knowledge gained from each of these activities into your photography- from making the image to processing:

1. Just viewing images and seeing the range of qualities. Here you will start to develop a sense for what makes a good image as you browse more and more.

2. Viewing images and reading the comments and critiques of others to solidify (or not!) what you were concluding yourself.

3. Posting your own images for critique.

4. Critiquing other images which requires you to REALLY look at an image, understand it, analyse it, and finally put your thoughts into words.

5. Anything I have left out!

If you don't leave comments and critiques you miss out on one of these cornerstones of the BPN educational process. Critiquing is not just good for BPN and building its community, it's good for you too!

[Bob Decker]

Roman, over the years I've been a fourm owner, an administrator, a super moderator and a moderator as well as just a plain old participant. I feel your pain. That said, if you don't find the position rewarding enough then you should drop back to just being a participant. I've seen moderators on this and other sites not participate. That's a bad thing for forums. It's also a bad thing when mods differentiate between paid and non-paid participants. There are reasons some folks choose to pay... reasons others don't. I have zero issue with either.

I doubt requiring a fee would result in greater participation. Lurkers will be lurkers... posters will be posters. The biggest issue in whether a forum is active or not has more with creating a friendly, nurturing environment that anything elese. Treat folks with respect and friendliness and they'll want to be part of the community. Isolate, disrespect or ignore new folks, or one segment or another and they won't want to participate. It's really that simple.

[Tom Graham]

My 2 cents. Sure I can afford $20. There are several web sites that I participate in and they are free - and are more useful/fun for me than BPN. With so many good free sites, a fee (even small) to a site becomes a big positive vote for it.

If each site I participate in charged $20, I would not pay it to all of them. How many $20 fees can I afford? Called competition. But only $20, hey, cost of burger meal for two, two packs of cigs, it's only pennies a day. Such marketing does not work on me. You want to see the value of BPN versus other sites, make it a $100 mandatory fee. Every *member* here could easily afford it, would they pay it?

Tom
ps - my experience on the internet goes back to about 1980 when it was ARPANET run by BBN, forums were USENET, you used terse UNIX commands. And no commerce was allowed on it. The good'ol days - not really

Tom

[P-A. Fortin]

If you don't leave comments and critiques you miss out on one of these cornerstones of the BPN educational process. Critiquing is not just good for BPN and building its community, it's good for you too!

I am well aware of that!

What I was trying to say is that getting to the point where you are comfortable enough to start critiquing other's images takes a while. Most likely much more than 3 months. Unless you already have some experience and photography background when you join.

If I had registered an account here as soon as I started to read around (instead of waiting until I felt ready to post), it is quite likely than within my "3 months probation" I would have posted a critique in the likes of "Your bird is way off the center and I find it quite annoying!" :eek:

[dankearl]

As another novice (I have been photographing for only 1 1/2 years), I understand PA Fortins reluctance to jump in and critique, but I did because it was the policy here.
No one has to listen to you (and probably don't), but you do learn by critiquing.
I joined right away because it was the policy. If you don't want to there are a lot of other sites that are free.
Getting critiques here was an eye opener. They can be blunt and I was taken back at first, but I also think I have learned a lot.
3 months should be long enough.
I don't think it needs to be that long. I lurked for a bit, so knew what I was joining.
People will always lurk here, I don't think the membership policy cuts down on the site traffic. I think if you want to post you should adhere to the sites policy or find another site to post on.
There are members here who post and don't critique. Moderators should point it out when it becomes habitual. 5 critiques per post may be too much, but commenting on a few takes minutes and like I said,
no one has to listen ot advice I give if they don't think I know what I am talking about.
My 2 cents.

[Jay Gould]

PA and Dan, I couldn't disagree with you more regarding a new photographer's critiques!

Setting aside my strong beliefs regarding participants and members, all beginners are asked, requested, and encouraged to offer their opinions.

Beginners opinions are very important; beginners look at an image with fresh eyes.

A critique is more than a technical review of the image; it is sharing the feeling that an image invokes in you.

We do not photograph only for ourselves; perhaps some do. We do not photograph only for professionals; perhaps some do.

We photograph for ourselves and for a very wide audience.

I am currently reading Galen Rowell's Inner Game of Outdoor Photography. I highly recommend to all; I know several Professionals that read this book every year or two.

Lastingly successful art triggers audience responses that are ready to happen in the culture as a whole. Regardless of how perfectly a photographer's work renders a subject, it is bound to fail unless it strikes that chord that elicits a common emotional and visual response.

Those that fail to comment early in the game fail to share an important part of the wealth of this wonderful forum; how they feel about an image.

If you are not comfortable suggesting technical changes then simply share your emotional response to the image. For me, that is equally if not more important than the technical aspects of whether something is level or sharp or contains noise or a color cast.

So long as the owner's provide for a participant's category I encourage all participants to share their feelings from day one.

[P-A. Fortin]

Very good point. I have to admit that I (up to now) always considered only the technical aspect of critique. I would never have considered the idea of posting any comment of this kind up to now. It never even came close to crossing my mind.

I guess it has to be the same for most new members though. At least those new to photography I mean.

[Desmond Chan]

I don't think the membership policy cuts down on the site traffic.

(I'm assuming you meant paid-membership policy) Generally speaking it will. Last time when local Subway giving out free breakfast sandwish, line-ups show up everywhere. Just basic economics. Then again, price is a factor but not the most important factor in a lot of cases.

[Desmond Chan]

I guess it has to be the same for most new members though. At least those new to photography I mean.

You should go look at threads that encourage participants (I'm using it loosely here in case you're wondering) to make comments. All they ask for from you is to say what you like and what you don't like. It's actually very easy. If you don't like the colors, then say: "I don't like the colors." And if you agree with other comments, then you say: "Agree with great comments above." What they don't like to see, but it still appears sometimes, is something like a simple: "Stunning mate !" with no further elaboration.

[P-A. Fortin]

What they don't like to see, but it still appears sometimes, is something like a simple: "Stunning mate !" with no further elaboration.

I don't like to see that either. It is actually what got me here: the absence of such comments. (Or at least when they show up, there is some more meat around the bone).

There are forums in my area in french (that would have been much easier on me) but to me it is nothing more than a place to boost your ego rather than a place to learn and improve. People post their image and then the "Good job!" counter goes up and up and... that's it. Whether its a piece of art of a digital catastrophe (you know, like kids drawings... "Wow, nice school bus kid!" "It's a bird!"), the same comments pile up and it just goes nowhere.

Don't tell me it's good when it's not. And in fact, don't tell me it's bad when it is. Just tell me WHY it's good or bad. Then it will have been a productive critique.

So until I can add some meat around the bone myself, I'll try the "colors" and "agree with above" technique


Edit: Okay, so this whole thread drifted away from topic. How long should participants be allowed to contribute on the site without becoming members?

[dankearl]

Desmond, I don't believe that paid membership cuts down on the site traffic.
They would know, they know how many "hits" they get.
I visited the site a bunch before I posted and joined.
I would think a lot of "birders", people who don't even photograph birds, visit the site.
The amount of people like you, who post a lot and don't join is fairly small, from what I see.
Most of the posts are from members, I bet most of the "hits" are not.
As for the topic, I think you should join after 5 posts, not a time limit, but a post limit. After 5 posts, getting feedback and such, you should be able to decide if you want to continue using the site.
If you just want to look, you are free to, as with most internet sites.

[John Chardine]

Very good point. I have to admit that I (up to now) always considered only the technical aspect of critique. I would never have considered the idea of posting any comment of this kind up to now. It never even came close to crossing my mind.

I guess it has to be the same for most new members though. At least those new to photography I mean.

The piece about critiquing by James Shadle is a sticky at the top of the Landscape forum, but I couldn't find it anywhere else. It should be on top of every critique forum.

P-A: I don't understand why Jay's suggestion never crossed your mind. All you have to do is read the first section of James' piece on critiquing and you will see the following:

"Critiquing an image is not as difficult as most people believe. It can be as easy as stating what you like or don't like about an image."

Jay (above) said this in another way: "(a critique) ... is sharing the feeling that an image invokes in you."

I am really not sure why this is so hard.

[Roger Clark]

"Lastingly successful art triggers audience responses that are ready to happen in the culture as a whole. Regardless of how perfectly a photographer's work renders a subject, it is bound to fail unless it strikes that chord that elicits a common emotional and visual response. "

HI Jay,
Great quote. Please confirm, is this a Galen Rowell quote?

It is a great quote because I see critiques (not necessarily on BPN) of images that have a great subject in great light and the audience may gasp, OOOH and AAAH at the image but the critique focuses in on some rule not followed. Sometimes I just cringe at the formula critique (again, not necessarily on BPN).

Roger

[Desmond Chan]

Desmond, I don't believe that paid membership cuts down on the site traffic.

I suppose I didn't make it clear enough. What I was saying is this: a site that has both paid and non-paid participants will end up having more participants than one that only allows paid participants, giving every other thing equal.

Anyhow, what's the point of this thread other than letting some participants throw off some steam? The question that Roman said he wanted to find out the answer for cannot be answered by this thread as far as I can tell. Whether non-paid participants are allowed here one way or another and for how long will be the decision of the management/owners of this site. If this thread is not started under their instruction, and may be they're not considering some rule/policy changing, or that some of you is not planning to persuade the owners/management to kick the non-paid participants out, then what exactly is the purpose of this thread, other than may be now we know more about some of the members here ??

By the way, dankearl, I was the first one to answer your "Camera Setting" thread, after you've posted it for a couple of days with 170 views but no answer.

[Jay Gould]

"Lastingly successful art triggers audience responses that are ready to happen in the culture as a whole. Regardless of how perfectly a photographer's work renders a subject, it is bound to fail unless it strikes that chord that elicits a common emotional and visual response. "

HI Jay,
Great quote. Please confirm, is this a Galen Rowell quote?

It is a great quote because I see critiques (not necessarily on BPN) of images that have a great subject in great light and the audience may gasp, OOOH and AAAH at the image but the critique focuses in on some rule not followed. Sometimes I just cringe at the formula critique (again, not necessarily on BPN).

Roger

Hi Mate,

The book - a fantastic book that only costs $19.77 on Amazon is a reprint of a series of articles written by Galen in Outdoor Photographer Magazine. The particular quote comes from the article/chapter: Learning To See; two pages in the book that really makes a difference.

You read the book and you start to see the World so differently. Another book that had a similar impact on seeing the World, for me, is The Complete Works of Sherlock Holmes. You read that complete set and you definitely starts to see the buds, leaves and tiny branches; not just the forest.

[Roger Clark]

I've seen moderators on this and other sites not participate. That's a bad thing for forums. It's also a bad thing when mods differentiate between paid and non-paid participants.

Bob,
We have discussed this some. A moderadors job is technically to moderate when needed. I will often hang back and hope other members can answer questions. Moderators should not in my opinion be in there posting on every thread and dominate.

I have not noticed moderators differentiate between paid and non-paid members. People (including mods) have other things to do, so sometimes a post has light responses simply because people (and mods) are out doing other things. Mods do discuss when a forum will be uncovered (or less covered) because of travel, so other mods can fill in when needed.

I have seen a tendency on this and other forums to have light/no comments on poor/boring images. I think people are afraid of driving off a new poster with too harsh a critique. This is independent of moderators and general members/participants.

Roger

[Jay Gould]

And, Desmond, for the life of me I cannot understand how someone can be as active as yourself giving and taking from this site and not choosing to be a Member as a way of saying Thank You to the owners for providing you with a vehicle to have almost 3,000 comments and almost 300 initiated threads.

[Desmond Chan]

And, Desmond, for the life of me I cannot understand how someone can be as active as yourself giving and taking from this site and not choosing to be a Member

You sure about that?

I'm pretty active on sites that I participated. Bad habit dies hard I suppose

Oh, I haven't posted any pictures asking for critiques for a long time if you haven't noticed. But, I do critique once in a blue moon these days.

[Jay Gould]

Desmond, am I sure about what? The numbers under your name?

[Desmond Chan]

Desmond, am I sure about what? The numbers under your name?

The member part.

Ok, despite you calling people cheap and apethetic, one thing I know but you don't: what you'd like to see here may not be so far apart than what I'd like to see. That's all I'll say for now.

[Jay Gould]

Des, now you are making a game!

[Bob Decker]

Bob,
We have discussed this some. A moderadors job is technically to moderate when needed. I will often hang back and hope other members can answer questions. Moderators should not in my opinion be in there posting on every thread and dominate.

Roger, IMHO a moderator is part cheerleader, part beat cop. While I agree mods shouldn't dominate there is nothing I find more unacceptable than a post that sits for 1, 2 even 3 days without receiving a single reply. It simply shouldn't happen. At the minimum the board's mod should pipe-up and say thanks for posting.

I have not noticed moderators differentiate between paid and non-paid members. People (including mods) have other things to do, so sometimes a post has light responses simply because people (and mods) are out doing other things. Mods do discuss when a forum will be uncovered (or less covered) because of travel, so other mods can fill in when needed.

Yes, we all have lives to live. No arguement. Even mods. Still, there are enough mods working BPN that non-reply to a post should never occur. If and when it does it does nothing to encourage participation or investment in paid membership. I wasn't particularly suggesting that the mods differentiate between paid and non-paid, but based on some of the commentary in this thread I can definately suspect some of the members do.

I have seen a tendency on this and other forums to have light/no comments on poor/boring images. I think people are afraid of driving off a new poster with too harsh a critique. This is independent of moderators and general members/participants.

Roger

So you're saying the mods here need to learn how to make a "crap sandwich?" Something like this perhaps:

"Thanks for posting lowly, novice photographer with no skills. We appreciate your participation. We don't see a lot of photos of Starlings here. Honestly a lot of photographers just don't bother to photograph common birds. A couple of suggestions to help your images improve. I see you shot this image near noon. Lighting conditions are usually much better earlier in the morning or a couple hour before sunset. You also my want to use a smaller aperature to insure more sharpness (larger f/stop number). Thanks again for posting. I'm sure we all look forward to your next contribution.:

Something nice at the beginning... something nice at the end... the less than positive stuff in the middle. Ez... Pz.

Or just let posts set without replies... and people be discouraged.

[Dave Mills]

I've waded through all the posts(being away for 3 weeks) and really see very little tangible argument for not having a time limit on forum participation. FP get the benefit for free of having their images critiqued which arguably is the main benefit of the site. The personal interaction of others to your image is the best learning experience one can get IMO. Most mods are honest in their critiques and are really trying to teach so someone gets value rather than just feel good.(which is the result of other sites) What keeps me going is the satisfaction of helping other folks improve and have fortunately seen it over the years.
To spend $20.00 p/yr is a pittance for the kind of assistance that is offered. Look at the prices for 1 day personal instruction that many people pay for. It ain't $20. As stated we mods work for nothing. Haven't even received a BPN hat but spend countless hours a year critiquing. Not complaining but just stating fact
IMO folks who are ACTIVE posters and receivers of critiques over an extended period of time are taking advantage of what I consider a far too liberal policy and feel their images should no longer be critiqued after an extended period of time....(the time to be determined)

[Roman Kurywczak]

Roman, over the years I've been a fourm owner, an administrator, a super moderator and a moderator as well as just a plain old participant. I feel your pain. That said, if you don't find the position rewarding enough then you should drop back to just being a participant. I've seen moderators on this and other sites not participate. That's a bad thing for forums. It's also a bad thing when mods differentiate between paid and non-paid participants. There are reasons some folks choose to pay... reasons others don't. I have zero issue with either.

I doubt requiring a fee would result in greater participation. Lurkers will be lurkers... posters will be posters. The biggest issue in whether a forum is active or not has more with creating a friendly, nurturing environment that anything elese. Treat folks with respect and friendliness and they'll want to be part of the community. Isolate, disrespect or ignore new folks, or one segment or another and they won't want to participate. It's really that simple.

I have been away all weekend, but I need more feedback before I respond. What site were you a part of with all those duties? Is it still around? I have been here for 3 years and have never disregarded any post...member or participant.... in my forums. I have also commented on other forums.

I want examples of your participation.....before I comment further. I like to research what others have done and their work.....so I can make a proper response.

[Roman Kurywczak]

Desmond......do you think I don't talk to the owners group? I was very interested for myself as to why people don't become members! I don't think this should be like other sites in regards to moderators......why be like every site? I think Mods need to put their input in....member or participant and I have over 3 years. I would like to know that my work would be appreciated by the participants enough....to want to join!

I beleive that if yo uwant cheerleading and pats on the back.....go post on flickr. You will watch your photography stagnate. There....I said it.

Buck it up....accept criticism.....and learn from it. Notice I didn't say my word was the final say!!! It is my opinion ! You need to listen to the critique.....accept or reject it.....but mostly....learn from it. If you reject the critique and have a valid. reason/argument for it......I will not argue with your assesment......because you have thought it out and learned!

Do you have magazine subscriptions? How much do they cost you? Do you get feedback on your images? Trust me.....if it was up to me, the participation issue would have been long over! Fortunately for the particpiants......the owners group is still weighing it's options and keeping things status quo!

[Bob Decker]

Roman, seriously? What the heck difference does it matter what forums I've worked for? I've been around the interenet about as long as there's been an internet. Many, many forums I've participated in have come and gone. I certainly don't own/host one any more. Lets see, I was a SCUBA instructor for 16 years. During several of those years I was a moderator for the AOL Scuba Forum, then the forum "Sys Op." Eventually AOL went to a system where only paid employees could moderate. I had a website titled SportDiverHQ for a number of years. It had a forum attached to it. I was a mod for the now defunct Professional Wedding Photographes forum... FWIW that morphed into a pay to play site before going belly up. I was also a mod on the now defunct One Light Workshop forums. One light Workshop is still around but Zack dropped the forum. I was also a mod at the Photographers Water Cooler... It's still there but totally inactive. Good enough or you need written references?

As a participant I'm currently active on Wildlifesouth.net, CNPA.org's forum, Digital Wedding Photogrpahers forum, Macro Nature Forum, and Naturescapes... plus one or two invitation only forums that I'm not even suppose to mention the existance of. I occasstionally read and less occassionally post to PhotoMigrations and FredMiranda. I have a membership at Naturephotographersnet... most read, seldom post.

Every observation I've outlined didn't necessarily happen here, but it could. Some things work. Some things don't. You can write me off as a crankly old guy... a mouthy jerk... some bonehead without a clue... or whatever you choose. Then again you could consider what I have to say and apply as you think it fits to your needs. Either way really doesn't much matter to me.

[Chris Ober]

The poll has 57 votes.
The thread has 1,374 views.
What does 1,317 abstains mean?
Tom

It means that a view is not counted as a unique visit. If one person reads the thread 30 times either by refreshing, replying, or reading replies, it's 30 views. One view isn't equivalent to one person. The view count isn't updated on the forum instantly either but.

[Chris Ober]

Tom, I have looked at this thread many times, every time someone posts a reply. Sorry that I've bumped up the viewing count, others may have as well. Some may not want their name to appear next to their vote. Some haven't decided yet. Lots of reasons why a vote may not have been made. Also, can non members/participants look at the thread even though they can't vote? Many reasons.

Yes, people not even registered here can read the threads and the view count will go up.

[Chris Ober]

I removed a few replies that were getting out of line... Keep it polite please...

[Roman Kurywczak]

Roman, seriously? What the heck difference does it matter what forums I've worked for? I've been around the interenet about as long as there's been an internet. Many, many forums I've participated in have come and gone. I certainly don't own/host one any more. Lets see, I was a SCUBA instructor for 16 years. During several of those years I was a moderator for the AOL Scuba Forum, then the forum "Sys Op." Eventually AOL went to a system where only paid employees could moderate. I had a website titled SportDiverHQ for a number of years. It had a forum attached to it. I was a mod for the now defunct Professional Wedding Photographes forum... FWIW that morphed into a pay to play site before going belly up. I was also a mod on the now defunct One Light Workshop forums. One light Workshop is still around but Zack dropped the forum. I was also a mod at the Photographers Water Cooler... It's still there but totally inactive. Good enough or you need written references?

As a participant I'm currently active on Wildlifesouth.net, CNPA.org's forum, Digital Wedding Photogrpahers forum, Macro Nature Forum, and Naturescapes... plus one or two invitation only forums that I'm not even suppose to mention the existance of. I occasstionally read and less occassionally post to PhotoMigrations and FredMiranda. I have a membership at Naturephotographersnet... most read, seldom post.

Every observation I've outlined didn't necessarily happen here, but it could. Some things work. Some things don't. You can write me off as a crankly old guy... a mouthy jerk... some bonehead without a clue... or whatever you choose. Then again you could consider what I have to say and apply as you think it fits to your needs. Either way really doesn't much matter to me.

Why are you getting so PO'd Bob? I didn't think my question was so inflamatory. I see I have touched some nerve with you so I will end this with you.....I will not comment on this any more as clearly it has annoyed you.

[Desmond Chan]

Desmond......do you think I don't talk to the owners group?

I hope you didn't think I wouldn't have thought of that C'mon, this is a serious poll with serious consequence

Fortunately for the particpiants......the owners group is still weighing it's options and keeping things status quo!

Whatever the outcome, I'd act accordingly

[Bob Decker]

You haven't PO'd me, Roman. Though it did strike me as a strange question.

[James Shadle]

Let me bottom line this for you.
I would like more paid members, however we will always allow non-paying folks to participate.

I'm not a rich man by any stretch and the cost involved in running a forum on a top class server is expensive. What I am is an idealistic photographer who feels a forum like BPN will help countless photographers world wide become better at their craft.

So here are some of the issues I must balance:

1. I can't afford to pay for the server without some income from the forum
2. We will only run a limited amount of unobtrusive advertising from trusted vendors. Whenever possible, it is our responsibility to help protect members from unscrupulous advertisers. Members prefer not having to wade through adverting to get to the content.
3. Charge a modest membership fee. $20 US is very reasonable based on other sites rates and content.

The larger the forum gets, the higher the server fees. What would you do to help offset the costs involved in running a site aimed at helping people become better photographers?

If you are a Forum Participant you are welcomed and encouraged to be a part of the BPN community. Please consider doing your part to keep the doors open.

Likewise, paid Members are welcomed and encouraged to be a part of the BPN community. In addition, I want to personally thank each of you for making BPN a reality.

Without our paid members, outstanding staff and partners, BPN would just be an idea I had while out photographing birds in Tampa Bay.

[Bob Decker]

First, thinks for all you do Capt.

The larger the forum gets, the higher the server fees. What would you do to help offset the costs involved in running a site aimed at helping people become better photographers?

It appears to me that when you open any thread there's easily enough room at the top for one or two more banner ads without them becoming any more intrusive or troublesome. I don't think anyone would object to that.

Also, if raising some additional funds is necessary, why not charge a minimal fee for posting classifieds and workshops in addition to the current requirements. Those would still be a bargin at $5 or $10 per post.

[Grady Weed]

I would be happy to pay more James. And that comes from me, a friend who has known you for almost 37 years! :eek:

I do not exxpect anything for free. I always pay my way. Your site is worth every dime and then some. I find it difficult to gift more than what is charged. You just never know how much extra to donate at times. So paying more, which distributes the load of cost to every user is the way to go from my view.

Whatever you charge in the future is OK with me. I will gladly pay it. I do expect you to give me a ride on the Hooptie when I moved down next year. I can't wait to come HOME! Hug Donna for Pam and I. See you buddy.

[denise ippolito]

I didn't offer my opinion before James BUT since you asked:

I would raise the member fee to $30.00 yearly and allow Forum Participants access to all content and full size images. I feel if they want to lurk, read, view and learn that is fine and welcomed. If they would like to participate in forum discussions (comment on posts such as these) or have their own images critiqued they should pay just like the members do.

[John Chardine]

That seems to be a reasonable option Denise but I would keep the annual fee at $20 unless there is a compelling financial reason to increase it.

[James Shadle]

I didn't offer my opinion before James BUT since you asked:

I would raise the member fee to $30.00 yearly and allow Forum Participants access to all content and full size images. I feel if they want to lurk, read, view and learn that is fine and welcomed. If they would like to participate in forum discussions (comment on posts such as these) or have their own images critiqued they should pay just like the members do.

Thanks for the suggestion.
However, IMO that's not fair to those who choose to financially support BPN.
We will not be raising our fee in the foreseeable future.

[denise ippolito]

Thanks for the suggestion.
However, IMO that's not fair to those who choose to financially support BPN.
We will not be raising our fee in the foreseeable future.

I must have misunderstood your last response. I thought you were saying that you couldn't afford to keep things the way they are-if that is not the case then keeping it the same price makes sense.

[Jay Gould]

As far as I am concerned the Owner has spoken. For the foreseeable future "participants" will have a free lunch and there will be no imposed incentive to cause/entice them to buy their lunch.

The Owner's choice and they get 100% of my continuing support and also disagreement with their decision.

[James Shadle]

Jay,
I love you and your passion!!!!

I'll make sure Forum Participants will always be able to participate. However there may need to be some adjustment in their posting frequency, permitted image size , avatars etc. Any adjustments to the FP program would be done to reduce server load.

[Jay Gould]

James, MWAH - the sound of a kiss flying through cyber space! :eek:

[Ed Cordes]

I think a year is just about right. It gives the newbies a chance to really scope things out and discover the benefits. Many of us do not have the time to participate every day. So a reasonable amount of time to get a good feel for the site is appropriate. It also doesn't create the feeling of an "elitist" site.