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Thread: June Theme: Pairs - Sand Hill Cranes Take Off

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    BPN Member Jon Saperia's Avatar
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    Default June Theme: Pairs - Sand Hill Cranes Take Off

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    A very cold December morning in 2009 at Bosque Del Apache.

    I have not posted to this forum before, but I like to try to shoot pairs when I can.

    Nikon D700, 600mm at f 7.1, ISO 500 at 1/600, manual. Processed in NX2, Cropped, Light/Color/Sharpness adjustments.
    Jon Saperia

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    Lifetime Member Marina Scarr's Avatar
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    Hi Jon:

    I see you are a fellow Bostonian. I was born and raised in Milton, although I have been a FL resident for a # of years now.

    This image speaks to me. The frosty ground I think it what really makes this one work so well, along with all the raised wings, the yellow BG and the amazing details you have here. The colors work very well together and the composition is great.

    Congratulations on this one, and it's nice to see you posting in this forum.
    Marina Scarr
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    Hi Jon.

    I think your synchronized cranes are very interesting. I like their intense stares, as they go about the serious business of takeoff. Great poses, action and sharpness.

    My only suggestions are really nits. One is that there are white halos around parts of the birds, including the legs. I would try to eliminate those. The other is that your most important colors are gray, black, white and red, in that order. The bright orange clashes a bit IMO, and I would select it and tone it down just a little.

    But this really is very nice. Well done!

  4. #4
    Ofer Levy
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    Light, colours, poses are all fantastic! Image looks a bit over sharpened to me which resulted in a noticeable sharpening halo. I assume this is a crop so would consider cropping a bit less leaving some more room on the left for the birds to "fly into". Won't touch the orange as it is beautiful and adds to this image - especially as there is a very similar orange on the birds.

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    Lifetime Member gail bisson's Avatar
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    This is a superb image. I love the upward sweep of the wings, the raised legs that mirror each other and the frosty ground. The detail in the wing feathers is excellent.
    I am OK with the orange BG although toning it down ever so slightly would also make a killer image,
    Gail

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    Great action and I really like both the BG and FG. Very nice!

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    BPN Member Jon Saperia's Avatar
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    Thanks for the comments so far. I do not know about the rules for theme posts. Am I allowed to make corrections and repost?

    I do see the halo's. I am not happy with the transition to the low res jpeg with the tools I use, so sometimes I do over-sharpen. I agree this is a bit much. I could also bring down the orange.
    Jon Saperia

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    Ofer Levy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Saperia View Post
    Thanks for the comments so far. I do not know about the rules for theme posts. Am I allowed to make corrections and repost?
    Of course you can!
    Happy to send a repost to show what I mean regarding the composition.
    Last edited by Ofer Levy; 06-01-2011 at 07:34 PM.

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    DanWalters
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    Love the position of the birds and that nice background! Great action as well.

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    BPN Member Jon Saperia's Avatar
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    Ofer,
    Thanks for the offer. please feel free to send me a copy with your edits if you like, the problem will be that these posts are very small so there is not a lot to work with :-).

    I have made some revisions and change the crop, reduced the saturation of just the orange background color, lightened the overall sharpening and brushed out the rest of the sharpening halo along the legs (I do see some was reintroduced when converting to jpeg, but it is not as bad as before).

    Here is a URL to exactly the same image on my website, it looks better.

    I appreciate the comments.

    http://jonsaperia.zenfolio.com/p7689...163d#h31c8163d
    Jon Saperia

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    Re-post for me , excellent position of both birds
    TFS

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    Jon, Looks great. Does it need a slight rotation? The frosty ground, poses and sharpness really make this one special.

  13. #13
    Robert Amoruso
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    Jon,

    Not too much to add to the above but to emphasize a few points.

    1) CW rotation needed.
    2) Crop - I like the added room in front but would keep the original crop at the bottom.
    3) Go back to the original's orange saturation.
    4) Sharpen as the last process after sizing the image for web. If you still get the halos, create a mask and enlarge the legs (other areas needing attention) and with small brush paint black on the halo to make then no visible. Tedious but I find easier then selectively sharpening things like legs.

    Overall a well done image. I find the positioning of the birds great with the expressions, head angle and up wing positions. They are nicely juxtaposed to each other too.

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    Avian Moderator Randy Stout's Avatar
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    Jon:

    A big welcome to the Avian forum. Fine image, with lots of good stuff going on.

    Love the synched poses.

    Robert summarized the points very well on the repost.

    Look forward to more.

    cheers

    Randy
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    Both loverly. I'd like Pane 10 with a bit more off the bottom. Are you sharpening your master file???? Are you saving layered JPEGs??? Loved the sharpness and the raised feet and wings and the frosted grass. Good eye by Denise as to the need for a bit of CW rotation.
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    Ofer Levy
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    Hi Jon,
    Here is my suggestion as to composition. Added to the left and a bit to the top and off the bottom. I feel the long horizontal emphasizes the sense of movement and leaves enough room for them to fly into.
    Left the orange as I think it is great. When adding the canvas to the top got rid of the dark areas but it will work fine with them as well when you edit the original.
    Didn't see a need for a rotation.
    Last edited by Ofer Levy; 06-01-2011 at 09:50 PM.

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    Ofer's repost is excellent. Agree on the orange and over-sharpening.

    Love the take off pose, it is an excellent image.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Saperia View Post
    Ofer,
    Thanks for the offer. please feel free to send me a copy with your edits if you like, the problem will be that these posts are very small so there is not a lot to work with :-).

    I have made some revisions and change the crop, reduced the saturation of just the orange background color, lightened the overall sharpening and brushed out the rest of the sharpening halo along the legs (I do see some was reintroduced when converting to jpeg, but it is not as bad as before).

    Here is a URL to exactly the same image on my website, it looks better.

    I appreciate the comments.

    http://jonsaperia.zenfolio.com/p7689...163d#h31c8163d
    Nice, Jon. But after thinking about it more, I have no problem with the brighter orange in the OP.
    Last edited by Norm Dulak; 06-02-2011 at 04:55 AM.

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    BPN Member Jon Saperia's Avatar
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    Thank you everyone for all the great comments and the welcome. I could not resist the June Theme. I also like that not everyone agrees on everything :-) I am sure all this will improve my eye.

    Artie, to answer your questions: "Are you sharpening your master file???? Are you saving layered JPEGs???"

    I did all of the image processing using Nikon Capture NX2, so in a sense the edits were on the NEF, though like Lightroom, you can have many versions, each with a different set of non-destructive edits applied to the original raw file. I use PhotoMechanic to convert from the saved file to the sRGB space, JPEG, and size format required for the site. The limitation of this tool is that you can not control how much sharpening to apply in the conversion process, either you check sharpening or not. I do sharpening in NX2 as my last series of steps: overall sharpening then additional steps (think of these as layers in Photoshop) for selective sharpening if needed.

    This has caused me to rethink, I may play with NX2 conversion to JPEG approaches.
    Jon Saperia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ofer Levy View Post
    Hi Jon,
    Here is my suggestion as to composition. Added to the left and a bit to the top and off the bottom. I feel the long horizontal emphasizes the sense of movement and leaves enough room for them to fly into.
    Left the orange as I think it is great. When adding the canvas to the top got rid of the dark areas but it will work fine with them as well when you edit the original.
    Didn't see a need for a rotation.
    Ofer, Perhaps you didn't notice the need for a rotation since when you added canvas to the left you lifted the left side up a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Saperia View Post
    I use PhotoMechanic to convert from the saved file to the sRGB space, JPEG, and size format required for the site. The limitation of this tool is that you can not control how much sharpening to apply in the conversion process, either you check sharpening or not. I do sharpening in NX2 as my last series of steps: overall sharpening then additional steps (think of these as layers in Photoshop) for selective sharpening if needed.

    This has caused me to rethink, I may play with NX2 conversion to JPEG approaches.
    Two things:

    #1: I would never check a box that applies sharpening if you cannot control the amount. Ever.

    #2: You write, "I do sharpening in NX2 as my last series of steps: overall sharpening then additional steps (think of these as layers in Photoshop) for selective sharpening if needed." It sounds very much as if you are sharpening your master file, the optimized file that you have created, and are then creating a JPEG from that. Is that in fact what you are doing?

    ps: It is very likely that I will see you early next week.
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    BPN Member Jon Saperia's Avatar
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    Artie,

    Regarding sharpening (and probably other things) sounds like good advice and I will take it - I have not been happy with the results that PhotoMechanic gives with the checkbox. I notice that the problem becomes more significant as I reduce the size/quality slider to get my files to the 200K range. On my Zenfolio site, there is no size restriction; as a result the files do not seem to suffer as much but they they are negatively impacted.

    Regarding my workflow:

    The JPEG that I post is sharpened on the optimized file in NX2. In my current flow, it does not get converted to JPEG/sRGB/Size until I do as "save as" in PhotoMechanic (it is a bit like Breeze Browser but runs on my Mac). This is where the problem with sharpening comes in. Photoshop does have a more interactive save as/to Web facility that BPN documents nicely but I could not use that unless I converted to Photoshop.



    Thanks for the pointers.

    P.S - I wonder if a forum each for the specific image processing tools like LR, PS, or NX2 would be a good idea. I know there are lots of separate threads, but a forum would make it easier to find topics I think.
    Jon Saperia

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    Ofer Levy
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    Quote Originally Posted by denise ippolito View Post
    Ofer, Perhaps you didn't notice the need for a rotation since when you added canvas to the left you lifted the left side up a bit.
    Hi denise, I don't think you can assume this image needs a rotation based on any line/strip at the BG. This is not the horizon or water ripples which can suggest a rotation.

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    re: Pane 22: Jon, You are making a common error. In ABP II and in Digital Basics, we state clearly and emphatically, "Never, ever sharpen your master file." No image should be sharpened until it is sized for final usage." Small JPEGs need only a bit of sharpening, medium sized prints need more sharpening, large prints still more, and billboards even more."

    You have now figured out why: reducing the size of an image will result in over-sharpening....
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    BPN Member Jon Saperia's Avatar
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    Thanks very much. I appreciate this. I will try to size the file (which I can do in NX2) as the last step before sharpening. When I used Photoshop, I followed that rule - now I know why we have the rule :-)

    Thanks again.

    /jon

    P.S. - yes I will see you soon.
    Jon Saperia

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    YAW. Do know that there are some instructors out there who teach folks to sharpen their master files. This is patently insane.

    BTW, I am fine with using a contrast mask to selectively "sharpen" parts of my master files but this is in no way traditional sharpening even though it employs the use of Unsharp Mask usually at 15/65/0 or thereabouts.
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    BPN Member Jon Saperia's Avatar
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    Thanks for the additional tip - I am looking forward to working on some new images the correct way.
    /jon
    Jon Saperia

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    great shot Jon,nice and sharp,love the frosted grass,goes well with the birds,like the BG,Ofers repost is bang on,imo,thanks and welcome to BPN.

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    BPN Member Jon Saperia's Avatar
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    Thanks Christopher - I forgot to mention, yes Ofers repost is much better in terms of having space in front of the birds, he has even more than in my repost.

    BTW - I have been on BPN for a while. I have only posted to ETL. The only reason I posted in this forum is that is where the theme was :-)
    /jon
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    Jon, this is one heck of an image. Ofer's repost was what was on my mind the first time I saw this one. terrific DOF work BTW. synchronised positions, habitat, freeze, angle....stunning shot.

    lots of good advice here on all fronts....such threads show the strength of BPN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ofer Levy View Post
    Hi denise, I don't think you can assume this image needs a rotation based on any line/strip at the BG. This is not the horizon or water ripples which can suggest a rotation.
    You are correct but the OOF FG usually doesn't slope as it does in the original.

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    This is an excellent image, love the colors and everything

    Re: CNX2,

    1) in CNX2 turn off USM and just apply RAW sharpening (3 out of 10 for D700/D3/D3S/D3X) then do all of your processing including D-Lightning etc. no USM.


    2) use size/resolution to downsample top 1024 pixels

    3) use adjust focus--> unsharp mask amount 60-80 radius=1

    your image should look sharp and clean without halos
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    here are screen shots for you

    Name:  cnx2-1.jpg
Views: 49
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    Name:  cnx2-2.jpg
Views: 43
Size:  188.6 KB

    Name:  cnx2-3.jpg
Views: 43
Size:  176.4 KB
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    BPN Member Jon Saperia's Avatar
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    Thanks very much for the pointer, but that is the opposite of what Jason O'Dell suggested in his NX2 sharpening tutorial. The argument is that the in camera processing is not as good as you can do with your computer. Use in-camera sharpening to give a clue to what you are doing. When loading into NX2 the first thing to to is remove all the in camera sharpening and leave the sharpening to the last step as Artie suggested. In your picture you have it set to 3 (same default as I have - the only difference is that I set it to 0 before doing anything else). BTW as it turns out, if you were to use photoshop you would have the same effect as photoshop does not read these in-camera Nikon-specific controls.

    Different tools same principle - do the sharpening last. Processing a partially sharpened image can lead to sub optimal results.

    That said, I looked at your site, beautiful images - especially of the Osprey and the Northern Harrier.
    Jon Saperia

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    Jon,

    When you shoot in RAW (NEF) format absolutely nothing is done to the file in camera, all the processing is done in NX2. You cannot apply sharpening to RAW data. Camera settings only affect JPEG files. When you have a particular settings in your camera all it does that it adds a line of text to the header of the NEF file, this will then tell NX2 what recipe to use for conversion.

    Here is what RAW sharpening in NX2 means:

    The RAW sharpening that is applied in NX2 is not equal to USM that is available in PhotoShop or light room. It is sharpening that is applied during decoding of the RAW data and uses a more sophisticated algorithm than USM. It takes into account the characteristics of the image sensor and low pass filter. You cannot achieve this in any other way. This is separate and should not be confused with output sharpening. The main goal of this setting is to compensate for the optical low-pass filter that is on the sensor. Nikon have chosen to use a very conservative low pass filter to eliminate moire artifacts. This setting allows you to extract as much fine detail as possible from the NEF files before doing your processing.

    You still need to do output sharpening at the end, which is step 3 above.

    I have been shooting with Nikon gear since 2002 when I got a D100, nothing beats NX2 when comes to processing NEF files, unfortunately most photographers are not familiar with the merits of Nikon Capture NX2 because it is a cumbersome tool for processing large number of photos.

    Looking forward to see more :)
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 06-02-2011 at 09:30 PM.
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    BPN Member Jon Saperia's Avatar
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    I agree in terms of NX2 and Nikon, that is why I use it. I do say that using the in-camera sharpening does impact the result on sees while editing in NX2 though. It is clearly visible and that is what we use for feedback while editing. All the picture controls have an impact on what you see, and therefore what you subsequently do in NX2.
    /jon
    Jon Saperia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Saperia View Post
    I agree in terms of NX2 and Nikon, that is why I use it. I do say that using the in-camera sharpening does impact the result on sees while editing in NX2 though. It is clearly visible and that is what we use for feedback while editing. All the picture controls have an impact on what you see, and therefore what you subsequently do in NX2.
    /jon

    Jon,

    Sharpening to a RAW file is not performed camera, you cannot sharpen a RAW file without first converting it to an image. Whoever said camera is sharpening your RAW files is 100% wrong.

    All that NX2 does is that it reads your camera settings and applies them to the RAW data, very simple. If it was applied in-camera you could not reverse it, right? just do the following test if you want to convince yourself:

    1) turn in-camera sharpening OFF and take an image.

    2) turn in-camera sharpening ON and take the same image.

    open image 1 and 2 in CNX2, now for image 2 turn sharpening OFF and compare to image 1. Do you see a difference?
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    BPN Member Jon Saperia's Avatar
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    Yup, I have taken many images and do this all the time now as I leave my sharpening on "3" which I think is the default. Here is the URL to the material/workshop I was referencing if you are interested in the details: http://www.luminescentphoto.com/cnx2...ing/index.html --

    I think this discussion started because I had made the mistake of sharpening before resizing and was not following a good workflow outside NX2. I think what we would agree on is to do the resizing then sharpening in NX2 and save the final image intended for the web directly with that tool.

    /jon
    Jon Saperia

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    Thanks Jon,

    I am not sure if I agree with this tutorial but whatever works for you, I use the method I described above, you can see the results and judge for yourself... Also check the official CNX2 tutorials by Nikon representative on B&H website, very helpful and free!

    http://www.video.bhphotovideo.com/

    All that matters is getting a final sharp and clean image without artifacts

    looking forward to more photos :)
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 06-03-2011 at 12:29 PM.
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  40. #40
    BPN Member Jon Saperia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    Thanks Jon,

    I am not sure if I agree with this tutorial but whatever works for you, I use the method I described above, you can see the results and judge for yourself... Also check the official CNX2 tutorials by Nikon representative on B&H website, very helpful and free!

    http://www.video.bhphotovideo.com/

    All that matters is getting a final sharp and clean image without artifacts

    looking forward to more photos :)
    Thanks, it is the result that counts and often there are several ways to there.
    /jon
    Jon Saperia

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