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Thread: Manual vs Av and Other Modes

  1. #201
    Todd Frost
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    Steven,
    As a fellow nikon user and knowing how the auto iso is implemented with these cameras (much different than others) know the usefullness in certain situations. Your statement "One thing I can't seem to get across..if I am in A (Av) or S (Tv) modes with the ISO locked down I am still in "full manual" mode." is very understandable. You (IMHO) will never get that point across as it doesn"t make any sense, in AV or TV or have implemented auto iso "you are no longer in manual mode" in any way shape or form. Your camera is making a choice for you, be it shutter speed, aperture or iso it is still making the choice. To be fully manual you have to be just that, setting all of these things manually. From what I get from your statements is that making a choice over one of these variables constitutes control therefore meaning manual. Correct me if I am hearing you wrong, but this could lead to the difficulty in bringing your point across.

    Todd

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    I'm with Steve on this one.
    I think, for the time being, the fact that the camera is really making decisions needs to be suppressed. Although a dose of confusion can't hurt, and although Steve has valiantly and tirelessly worked to this end, this alone may not be enough.
    Steve's repeating things over and over until they become true seems to have worked well for others in the past, so why not now? And the usually reliable changing the definition of words isn't quite working either. Why not?
    Certainly changing the definition of the word manual to mean allowing the camera to make decisions is a good place to start, but why are people showing so much resistance to the concept? These people are trying the exact same tactic of repeating the same thing over and over again, in this case that auto doesn't mean the same thing as manual, but though repeating the same thing over and over should eventually make it true, meanwhile it is just showing their ignorance. They simply do not understand, and as gifted as Steve is at communication, and as many times as he tries to make the same point with different words, he is not breaking through. Must be very frustrating.
    I would suggest that a dis-information campaign seems to be in order, and samples are the way to go. For example, Steve could use images to prove that it doesn't matter what ISO the camera chooses and indeed ISO isn't very important anyway, far less important than shutter-speed and aperture. He could show images he claims shot at ISO 1600 and ISO 400, and show that there is no difference in the amount of digtal noise and detail resolution. Just to make sure that there aren't any unreasonable pixel peepers out there, and people that allow their anti-auto bias to cloud their judgement, it probably would be safer to have both images shot as ISO 400 and just say one was shot at ISO 1600. After all, He has an important point to make and facts, and even word definitions, simply are not relevant. Hint; be sure to exclude EXIF data from the images. regards~Bill
    Last edited by WIlliam Maroldo; 05-05-2011 at 05:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Kersting View Post
    Aw c'mon, almost no one would keep dark dark (or light light) unless going for an artistic interpretation (high/low key).
    Hi Steve,

    If one wants to keep shutter speed short enough to freeze action and have a dark subject look relatively dark, that is the way to go instead of letting the meter make it middle gray!


    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Kersting View Post
    I would let auto ISO "fix" the situation for me. EC is only necessary if there is meter confusion or trying to "expose to the right"...choose the right metering mode and EC is not needed.
    But ISO doesn't "fix" the situation. In fact, it could make it worse.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Kersting View Post
    One thing I can't seem to get across..if I am in A (Av) or S (Tv) modes with the ISO locked down I am still in "full manual" mode. Even if I am in one of those modes with auto ISO settings, if the lighting/scene is constant I am still in "full manual" control. It's when things change unexpectedly that the difference becomes apparent (as in the example given).
    You can't get it across that Av or Tv is still "full manual" mode because it isn't! Full manual means the photographer sets all the parameters: f/ratio, shutter speed and ISO. In Tv or Av modes, the camera sets one. Sure you can add exposure compensation up to a degree, but that is fighting the camera and any change in light means the photographer must fight some more. And there are many cases where the camera does not have enough compensation in those auto modes. That is not really control,
    and de.

    In the case being discussed (the bear at the falls), use of any auto mode would have resulted in poorly exposed images simply because one could not dial in compensation to counter the rapidly changing background.

    Roger

  4. #204
    Steven Kersting
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Clark View Post
    Hi Steve,

    If one wants to keep shutter speed short enough to freeze action and have a dark subject look relatively dark, that is the way to go instead of letting the meter make it middle gray!
    EC would have been originally set to compensate for meter error...In A mode I just need to select a wider aperture to keep the same SS as things change. The bear doesn't ever become "middle gray".

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Clark View Post
    But ISO doesn't "fix" the situation. In fact, it could make it worse.
    IMO, used properly it does "fix" a lot of situations; many more than it makes "worse". But yes, it can make things worse in some situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Clark View Post
    You can't get it across that Av or Tv is still "full manual" mode because it isn't! Full manual means the photographer sets all the parameters: f/ratio, shutter speed and ISO. In Tv or Av modes, the camera sets one. Sure you can add exposure compensation up to a degree, but that is fighting the camera and any change in light means the photographer must fight some more. And there are many cases where the camera does not have enough compensation in those auto modes. That is not really control,
    and de.

    In the case being discussed (the bear at the falls), use of any auto mode would have resulted in poorly exposed images simply because one could not dial in compensation to counter the rapidly changing background.

    Roger
    Yes, Tv/Av modes are full manual (with locked ISO or constant light/scene). If the camera has control of SS and I have control of Aperture (A/Av mode); I simply change aperture to override the camera's choice of changing SS..I win, and I am in control, end of story.

    In the situation being discussed, in full manual mode when the scene/lighting changes you have to adjust the settings or accept that the bear would be lighter in a brighter scene/ darker in a darker scene. Generally your only (realistic) option is to trade aperture in order to keep SS in a rapidly changing setting.

    Lets assume I was there long enough to decide in advance (or general subject dictated) that SS was my primary concern. So I'm in S (Tv) mode (I don't typically use this mode for reasons previously noted). While the bear is in a given setting I meter (or judge) that 1 stop underexposure is required for the bear and metering mode used (let's say center weighted). So I set my EC to -1 (With my Nikon I have 5 stops of EC either side, more than enough for most scenarios). Now the bear goes into a dark setting w/ shadows where the metering is going to want to brighten the bear to middle gray...the bear is automatically underexposed by the 1 stop. Then the bear passes into a patch of bright light/water where the meter is going to want to "darken" the bear to middle gray; again, exposure of the bear is automatically adjusted to -1. Always the bear is -1 from middle gray and I haven't had to do anything. In S mode my camera will trade Aperture and then ISO in order to keep the bear -1 which I generally don't prefer, but it is your only real option in full manual mode in a rapid situation..I would personally choose aperture priority mode with an ISO auto range. With these settings the camera would first trade ISO, then SS. If I see SS being cut below the default 1/1000 due to reaching ISO limit I manually trade aperture to keep an acceptable SS, but the bear is always at a "correct" -1 exposure. I never have to "continually fight" w/ the metering system....(If 1/1000 in't fast enough I will be in manual w/ auto ISO range). In Manual mode you have to continually "fight" with the camera, or disregard it entirely.

    I disagree that setting EC is "fighting" with the camera. It is relying on the camera to give a consistent exposure determination and telling it that it's determination is going to be consistently wrong based upon metering mode/subject. This is reliable.

    In full manual you have to continually second guess the metering system and guesstimate the required offset. Or you accept a dark bear in a dark setting is going to be dark ("correct") and a dark bear in a light setting will be lighter (again "correct").

    To me this is akin to saying "it was taken under incandescent lighting and everything really was orange". True enough, but not really desirable.

    IME full manual requires constant adjustments for changes of situation; anything less is a compromise. (unless you have constant lighting and an incident reading, and sometimes even then)

    Regardless, I am never not in full control of what the camera is doing. I am simply using different settings to make adjustments and letting the camera do for me what I would choose to do in full manual mode (some choices much more efficiently than I could do). If I don't like what the camera is doing (or is going to do) I change methodology. The camera doesn't get to do whatever it wants, it get's to do whatever I allow it to do.

    I will say that when using a D90/D200 my methods often tended more towards full manual because the camera just wasn't as capable... But when I pay more, I expect more. (I.e. spot metering/dynamic focus mode was almost pointless w/ a D90/D200)

    I almost think that many are locked into a methodology that 'worked" back in film/ early digital and haven't figured out how to leverage all of the new technology to your benefit..technology you are paying for but not using. That seems a waste to me.

    Obviously, I am fairly alone in my opinions regarding this on this board. Or at least I am the only one willing to state my opinions....maybe it's time to quit this debate. I give up.

    All I can say is: If you learned full manual 10+ yrs ago; the rules have changed since then (heck, they are changing every other year now).


    I think I'm done now.....

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    Steven, I don't think anyone is disputing that you have 'full control' of your camera, just some terminology.

    If I'm not mistaken Roger is a scientist or at least has a comprehensive scientific background. I too am a scientist though somewhat younger than Roger. I think it is in our nature to want very clear definitions that are universal.

    So, you describe very clearly how you have full control of exposure, and utilise your camera to the maximum, but (at least in my opinion) it would be clearest to describe manual mode (operator defined shutter, aperture and iso) as 'Full Manual', as this is what the majority on this thread are talking about.

    A clear term for your situation is escaping me slightly at the moment, but the definition of that term for me would be along the lines of 'full control of exposure by the operator through manual compensation for the scene tonality'.

    It's all too easy for tempers to fray when a point isn't coming across clearly. What is clear is that most here have exposure nailed >99% of the time in any camera mode, which is good I think!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Kersting View Post
    All I can say is: If you learned full manual 10+ yrs ago; the rules have changed since then (heck, they are changing every other year now).
    I have to disagree, and I think your statement is misleading and could be even irresponsible as some beginnings could even believe it as truth (just like some believe that Canon revolutionizes exposure with their new cameras and their evaluative system that one has to relearn about exposure).

    What I do today as far as determining exposure is concerned is the same way I did when I picked up my first film slr camera years ago. The cameras have changed, certainly, but the principles that make them work stay the same, IMO.

    And as pointed out, Steven, as far as talking about exposure is concerned, you seem to be speaking in a foreign language.
    Last edited by Desmond Chan; 05-06-2011 at 03:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Kersting View Post
    In full manual you have to continually second guess the metering system and guesstimate the required offset.
    Steven, The exact same thing is true in Av, Tv, or P. I make less than 10% of my images at the exposure suggested by the camera. And by learning to evaluate the histogram and work to to the edge of blinkies no guessing is necessary unless the light or the situation is changing rapidly. It is those situations that the photographer who is well versed in exposure theory has the advantage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Kersting View Post
    EC would have been originally set to compensate for meter error...In A mode I just need to select a wider aperture to keep the same SS as things change. The bear doesn't ever become "middle gray".


    IMO, used properly it does "fix" a lot of situations; many more than it makes "worse". But yes, it can make things worse in some situations.
    Steven,
    While the thread is getting large, if you go back and read my posts, I argued for cases where manual was not the ideal mode to use and that a partial auto mode, something like Av, is better.

    But you are torquing my example. My example was the bear against a dark bank with constant light and diving into white water. The example bear image I posted in this thread had proper exposure, and that exposure would be the same if the bear was against the bank in that same constant light. No matter where the bear moves in that constant light, the exposure is the same. In Av mode, every time the bear moves, or you change composition, the exposure would change, so you would have to constantly change exposure compensation. But the problem is the exposure from dark background to white water is more than 5 stops and I know of no camera that has +/- 5 stops of compensation in Av or Tv mode. So in this case, one would be fighting to keep a constant exposure and hitting stops. Av or ANY auto mode would result in many bad exposures with a lot of effort to keep exposure constant. It is much more efficient and accurate to use full manual.

    We can look at definitions regarding manual (I'm making some of these up--let's see how they fly with others):

    Full auto: camera makes all decisions, photographer just points and shoot. (green square on Canon)

    Mostly auto: camera makes all decisions, but photographer can do program shift.

    Partial manual: photographer makes 1 decision, camera makes others (shutter priority, aperture priority, ISO priority). E.g. aperture priority with camera changing ISO and shutter speed. EC adds limited control

    Mostly manual: photographer fixes all parameters but one. E.g. aperture priority: set aperture and ISO and camera sets shutter speed. EC adds limited control.

    Full manual: photographer sets all parameters: aperture, shutter speed, ISO.



    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Kersting View Post
    Yes, Tv/Av modes are full manual (with locked ISO or constant light/scene). If the camera has control of SS and I have control of Aperture (A/Av mode); I simply change aperture to override the camera's choice of changing SS..I win, and I am in control, end of story.
    But you do not have complete control. You only have limited control with EC. And because if anything changes (light, background, subject) the camera changes settings, and that is not full manual.





    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Kersting View Post
    I disagree that setting EC is "fighting" with the camera. It is relying on the camera to give a consistent exposure determination and telling it that it's determination is going to be consistently wrong based upon metering mode/subject. This is reliable.
    In the example being discussed, the bear at the falls, one can not change EC fast enough, nor far enough to maintain the correct exposure when the bear decides to jump into the white water. it is really very very very very very simple: keep the exposure constant all the time in this case. Letting the camera make any decision and then trying EC to get back to the correct exposure is certainly fighting the camera.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Kersting View Post
    In full manual you have to continually second guess the metering system and guesstimate the required offset. Or you accept a dark bear in a dark setting is going to be dark ("correct") and a dark bear in a light setting will be lighter (again "correct").
    But there is no second guessing. The light is constant. The exposure is constant. In the real-world example, I chose to check exposure every 20 minutes or so. That is a lot easier than guessing what exposure compensation to dial in with the camera varying all over the place on every frame!


    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Kersting View Post
    IME full manual requires constant adjustments for changes of situation; anything less is a compromise. (unless you have constant lighting and an incident reading, and sometimes even then)
    And Av mode doesn't? Wow! What you describe is full of constantly changing EC in a mode like Av.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Kersting View Post
    Regardless, I am never not in full control of what the camera is doing. I am simply using different settings to make adjustments and letting the camera do for me what I would choose to do in full manual mode (some choices much more efficiently than I could do). If I don't like what the camera is doing (or is going to do) I change methodology. The camera doesn't get to do whatever it wants, it get's to do whatever I allow it to do.
    I have encountered many situations where in Av mode, the camera does not have enough EC range to get the best exposure.

    How did those Moon images work out? How did you meter and expose the Moon?
    First quarter is in few days if you want to try again.
    (I always use full manual for a Moon image.)

    Roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Warnock View Post
    Steven, I don't think anyone is disputing that you have 'full control' of your camera, just some terminology.

    If I'm not mistaken Roger is a scientist or at least has a comprehensive scientific background. I too am a scientist though somewhat younger than Roger. I think it is in our nature to want very clear definitions that are universal.
    While I am a scientist, my views originate from the confusion I see with photographers, and confusion is increasing due to several things: digital is similar but different than film, sensor sizes adds another variable, pixel sizes adds another variable, and the incorrect descriptions and incorrect use of terminology on the web adds up to vastly increased confusion.

    Calling Av mode full manual is just adding more confusion, kind of like the confusion of a statement like: "increase your aperture." Or I did a 30% crop. Or telephoto reach with cropped sensors. etc.

    Roger

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    Thanks Roger, you cover the points nicely (another afternoon of sports shooting in 'full manual' just completed!).

  11. #211
    Steven Kersting
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Clark View Post
    Hi Steve,
    How did those Moon images work out? How did you meter and expose the Moon?
    First quarter is in few days if you want to try again.
    (I always use full manual for a Moon image.)

    Roger
    I haven't forgotten, just been several weeks with rain/cloud cover/ no-moon, and I've been flying nvg's last week and next. But I *should* get the opportunity this weekend.

  12. #212
    Steven Kersting
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Frost View Post
    Steven,
    As a fellow nikon user and knowing how the auto iso is implemented with these cameras (much different than others) know the usefullness in certain situations. Your statement "One thing I can't seem to get across..if I am in A (Av) or S (Tv) modes with the ISO locked down I am still in "full manual" mode." is very understandable. You (IMHO) will never get that point across as it doesn"t make any sense, in AV or TV or have implemented auto iso "you are no longer in manual mode" in any way shape or form. Your camera is making a choice for you, be it shutter speed, aperture or iso it is still making the choice. To be fully manual you have to be just that, setting all of these things manually. From what I get from your statements is that making a choice over one of these variables constitutes control therefore meaning manual. Correct me if I am hearing you wrong, but this could lead to the difficulty in bringing your point across.

    Todd
    Doesn't anybody use exposure lock?

    Nikon, Canon, and Pentax all have some verion of "hyper-program/ hyper-manual" that can be enabled. "Hyper" is what pentax calls it, Nikon calls it "easy exposure comp" and "variable program", I don't know what it is called w/ Canon.

    With these settings enabled there are some very neat advantages. In A mode (on my Nikon) I move the aperture dial and the SS/Aperture swaps keeping the same exposure (but ISO will change w/ new scene), if I move the SS dial the SS changes and the exposure is adjusted (ISO still changes w/ new scene; in S mode it behaves a bit differently and prioritizes SS).
    If I don't want the ISO to change w/ a new scene I just hit Exposure lock. Auto meter off delay needs to be set to a longer time to really make this effective (mine is set to 10 minutes)
    Everything is very quick and easy. No menus, no two finger maneuvers, etc.

  13. #213
    Steven Kersting
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Steven, The exact same thing is true in Av, Tv, or P. I make less than 10% of my images at the exposure suggested by the camera. And by learning to evaluate the histogram and work to to the edge of blinkies no guessing is necessary unless the light or the situation is changing rapidly. It is those situations that the photographer who is well versed in exposure theory has the advantage.
    Art, I almost never use the "recommended exposure" either. But for a given time and metering mode simply setting a base EC will be 90% as effective as adjusting for each image individually. (I am usually at a +.3-.7 to push the exposure rt). If that other 10% is critical or you have the time, by all means you should go full manual and check the histogram.
    I will generally just go w/ EC and EL as I don't have to switch between modes. (see above post)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Clark View Post
    Calling Av mode full manual is just adding more confusion, kind of like the confusion of a statement like: "increase your aperture." Or I did a 30% crop. Or telephoto reach with cropped sensors. etc.

    Roger
    Maybe I should have said "can be" if Exposure lock is used, or "can have the same results as" if the scene doesn't change....

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    What would I do without The Blog?!!

    The Blog is da bomb!!

    And, it brought me to this wonderful thread which I missed since I have been overseas for almost two months.

    Now, having read all of the posts, let me for MY education suggest that no one really really really works in Manual in that everyone, repeat everyone, regardless of the mode being used, looks at the histogram, AND

    if it isn't right next to - I would not say "against" the RHS - we add light either by a slower shutter speed, a larger aperture, a faster ISO, or a bit of exposure compensation; and,

    if it is "against" the RHS and the blinkies are doing what they are supposed to do - blink too much - we subtract light using one of many methods available.

    I would suggest that the benefit of being in M instead of Av or Tv is that in M you can quickly change either the aperture or the SS; whereas if you are in Av you have to make more changes depending upon what you want to accomplish in the final image.

    For those shooting BIFs, I would think that M is the preferred mode most of the time as more options are quickly available; however, when shooting landscapes (Roman?) where you are locked down on a tripod and the DOF is, perhaps, critical, except in rapidly light changing circumstances such as at the beginning or end of sunrise or sunset, Av might offer the best option.

    I know this may be semantics; however, I have really had trouble with the concept of Manual Mode since at the end of the day the camera's light meter based upon the parameters you have chosen (ISO, SS, Av) creates a histogram which we all rely upon to determine if we have enough or too much exposure.


    by learning to evaluate the histogram and work to to the edge of blinkies no guessing is necessary unless the light or the situation is changing rapidly.
    Doesn't this statement by Artie say it all regardless of the mode in which you are working? While you are not relying on the camera to determine exposure, you are relying on the camera's histogram to determine if the exposure is or is not sufficient, aren't you?
    Last edited by Jay Gould; 05-14-2011 at 04:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Gould View Post
    What would I do without The Blog?!!

    The Blog is da bomb!!

    And, it brought me to this wonderful thread which I missed since I have been overseas for almost two months.

    Now, having read all of the posts, let me for MY education suggest that no one really really really works in Manual in that everyone, repeat everyone, regardless of the mode being used, looks at the histogram, AND

    if it isn't right next to - I would not say "against" the RHS - we add light either by a slower shutter speed, a larger aperture, a faster ISO, or a bit of exposure compensation; and,

    if it is "against" the RHS and the blinkies are doing what they are supposed to do - blink too much - we subtract light using one of many methods available.

    I would suggest that the benefit of being in M instead of Av or Tv is that in M you can quickly change either the aperture or the SS; whereas if you are in Av you have to make more changes depending upon what you want to accomplish in the final image.

    For those shooting BIFs, I would think that M is the preferred mode most of the time as more options are quickly available; however, when shooting landscapes (Roman?) where you are locked down on a tripod and the DOF is, perhaps, critical, except in rapidly light changing circumstances such as at the beginning or end of sunrise or sunset, Av might offer the best option.

    I know this may be semantics; however, I have really had trouble with the concept of Manual Mode since at the end of the day the camera's light meter based upon the parameters you have chosen (ISO, SS, Av) creates a histogram which we all rely upon to determine if we have enough or too much exposure.




    Doesn't this statement by Artie say it all regardless of the mode in which you are working? While you are not relying on the camera to determine exposure, you are relying on the camera's histogram to determine if the exposure is or is not sufficient, aren't you?
    Jay we rely on experience and the cameras meter to determine exposure, then use the tools on the camera LCD to evaluate how we've done and adjust if needed. I think the flashing highlight alert and the jpeg on the lcd are more useful than the histogram. The histogram is not very useful when the lightest tones are not on the subject. My best tool for determining exposures is experience.
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    Jay, You are beginning to get a good grasp of this stuff. But, re:

    I would suggest that the benefit of being in M instead of Av or Tv is that in M you can quickly change either the aperture or the SS; whereas if you are in Av you have to make more changes depending upon what you want to accomplish in the final image.

    Not sure what you are talking about there. Given a constant amount of light you always need to change two things in M, but just one in Av. So in Av you have to make fewer changes....

    Jim, yes, experience is a great tool. I am trying to teach the folks without experience :).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Jay, You are beginning to get a good grasp of this stuff. But, re:

    I would suggest that the benefit of being in M instead of Av or Tv is that in M you can quickly change either the aperture or the SS; whereas if you are in Av you have to make more changes depending upon what you want to accomplish in the final image.

    Not sure what you are talking about there. Given a constant amount of light you always need to change two things in M, but just one in Av. So in Av you have to make fewer changes....

    Jim, yes, experience is a great tool. I am trying to teach the folks without experience :).
    I think it's easier to start out in manual mode and then apply what you have learned to shooting in other modes than it is to learn to shoot in one of the program modes initialy and then switch to manual. I think manual is easier to learn, because you don't have to figure out what the camera is going to do first. The experiences you build shooting in manual mode make you better and better at getting the perfect exposure consistantly, because you are always in tune with what the settings were and how they affected your images. In the program modes, you only remember the compensation values which aren't as meaningful for future shoots.
    Last edited by Jim Neiger; 05-14-2011 at 11:07 AM.
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    [QUOTE=Jay Gould;669020]What would I do without The Blog?!!

    I know this may be semantics; however, I have really had trouble with the concept of Manual Mode since at the end of the day the camera's light meter based upon the parameters you have chosen (ISO, SS, Av) creates a histogram which we all rely upon to determine if we have enough or too much exposure.




    QUOTE]
    Jay, as far as I know the histogram is based on what the sensor reads and the meter is a seperate system. regards~Bill

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    [QUOTE=WIlliam Maroldo;669120]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Gould View Post
    What would I do without The Blog?!!

    I know this may be semantics; however, I have really had trouble with the concept of Manual Mode since at the end of the day the camera's light meter based upon the parameters you have chosen (ISO, SS, Av) creates a histogram which we all rely upon to determine if we have enough or too much exposure.




    QUOTE]
    Jay, as far as I know the histogram is based on what the sensor reads and the meter is a seperate system. regards~Bill
    The histogram is based on the jpeg that is generated by the camera using the raw data file and camera settings.
    Jim Neiger - Kissimmee, Florida

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neiger View Post
    I think it's easier to start out in manual mode and then apply what you have learned to shooting in other modes than it is to learn to shoot in one of the program modes initialy and then switch to manual. I think manual is easier to learn, because you don't have to figure out what the camera is going to do first. The experiences you build shooting in manual mode make you better and better at getting the perfect exposure consistantly, because you are always in tune with what the settings were and how they affected your images. In the program modes, you only remember the compensation values which aren't as meaningful for future shoots.
    With all due respect you are way off base. Whatever mode you learn/work in you must know what the camera (read metering pattern) is doing. I am not saying that one mode or the other is better/easier for folks learning, just that folks need to understand metering and exposure.

    And for whatever reasons, many beginners are too scared of Manual to even tr it....
    Last edited by Arthur Morris; 05-16-2011 at 09:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neiger View Post
    I think it's easier to start out in manual mode and then apply what you have learned to shooting in other modes than it is to learn to shoot in one of the program modes initialy and then switch to manual. I think manual is easier to learn, because you don't have to figure out what the camera is going to do first. The experiences you build shooting in manual mode make you better and better at getting the perfect exposure consistantly, because you are always in tune with what the settings were and how they affected your images. In the program modes, you only remember the compensation values which aren't as meaningful for future shoots.
    Jim,

    I do not think exposure consistency is directly related to one method over another. If someone shoots long enough with one method they should be able to become proficient in its use. However, I do find many/most of those who start out using Auto Priority Mode tend not to be in tune with light quality and/or quantity, figuring the Auto Mode will do what is necessary. Exposure comp is used mostly as a means to make the image lighter or darker.

    When painting a picture the artist needs to understand how different brushes will render light upon the canvas. But, the brush is of no use without the paint or an eye for lighting.

    Manual Priority by its nature keeps the photographer better connected with the light. I advocate learning Manual Mode before moving to Auto Modes.

    Best,

    Chas

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    Lifetime Member Jim Neiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Glatzer View Post
    Jim,

    I do not think exposure consistency is directly related to one method over another. If someone shoots long enough with one method they should be able to become proficient in its use. However, I do find many/most of those who start out using Auto Priority Mode tend not to be in tune with light quality and/or quantity, figuring the Auto Mode will do what is necessary. Exposure comp is used mostly as a means to make the image lighter or darker.

    When painting a picture the artist needs to understand how different brushes will render light upon the canvas. But, the brush is of no use without the paint or an eye for lighting.

    Manual Priority by its nature keeps the photographer better connected with the light. I advocate learning Manual Mode before moving to Auto Modes.

    Best,

    Chas
    Chas,

    Generaly speaking, I agree with everything you said, but when it comes to bird photography that includes action such as flight, I believe that manual mode produces more consistantly correct exposures than any of the program modes. When shooting action with changing bgs, you just can't predict what the camera is going to do and dial in the correct compensation fast enough. I reliaze that there may be similar situations with changing light that make a program mode a more consistant choice, but in bird photography, changing bgs are a much more common situation.
    Jim Neiger - Kissimmee, Florida

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neiger View Post
    Chas,

    Generaly speaking, I agree with everything you said, but when it comes to bird photography that includes action such as flight, I believe that manual mode produces more consistantly correct exposures than any of the program modes. When shooting action with changing bgs, you just can't predict what the camera is going to do and dial in the correct compensation fast enough. I reliaze that there may be similar situations with changing light that make a program mode a more consistant choice, but in bird photography, changing bgs are a much more common situation.

    Jim,

    As you already know ;~) I fully agree on Manual being the way to go for birds in flight for the reasons you stated above. And, I have said so for many years.

    Best Amigo,

    Chas

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    Lifetime Member Jay Gould's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ofer Levy View Post
    Thanks for your comments guys!
    Melissa, here is the "secret" how I expose.... I simply NEVER expose AV or TV - only Manual. I always expose in a way that the brightest element in the image (particularly on the bird) is almost hot - in this case the white. You should have the highlight alert ON. Exposing manually with the histogram pushed as much as possible to the right without burning anything will result in the best possible image with the best signal to noise ratio, and the best colours. It may not look very nice in camera as it will be a bit bright but when opened in photoshop and adjusted a bit you will see the beauty of this technique. Don't relay on the camera to do this simple thing for you when you can do it so much better.
    Just my 2 cents,
    Cheers,Ofer
    http://www.oferlevyphotography.com

    Ofer, and other manual advocates, let's look at this from a tutorial point of view.

    Ofer, you have manually set Av and Tv based upon........what?

    How do you independent of the camera's computer zero your meter? What is the "manual" process?

    Then, having refused to allow the camera's computer to make the exposure for you in the first instance, you click the shutter and the first thing you do is look at the histogram with the decision making highlight alert turned on. If it is blinking, if then graph is pushed against the right, you either increase your speed or decrease your aperture or decrease your ISO because the camera has said the initial chosen settings set manually do not work.

    Artie writes "If the background tonality is changing constantly, learn to work in Manual Mode and to adjust your exposure via the analog exposure scale in the viewfinder. By doing so and then checking the histogram, you will always have the correct exposure for the subject regardless of the tonality of the background (as long as the light level remains constant)."

    If you are working in manual and before commencing a shoot you set your triangle (ISO, Av, Tv) by pointing your lens at what you consider neutral and change one or more settings to zero your meter, thereby relying on the cameras's computer in the final instance, how is that different from choosing ISO, and either Av or Tv depending upon your subject (generalizing choosing Tv for avian/wild life and Av for landscape) and letting the camera's computer automatically zero the meter?

    I would find it a great assistance, and I am guessing many others would also find it a great assistance, if those advocating manual shooting with different subject matters would, step by step (1., 2., etc) describe the way they initially set their manual exposure and how they maintain it through the shoot.

    Roman, Roger, and many other landscapers, appreciate your tutorial.

    Ofer, Jim, John, Chas, and many other wildlife/avian shooters, appreciate your tutorial too.

    Cheers,
    Cheers, Jay

    My Digital Art - "Nature Interpreted" - can now be view at http://www.luvntravlnphotography.com

    "Nature Interpreted" - Photography begins with your mind and eyes, and ends with an image representing your vision and your reality of the captured scene; photography exceeds the camera sensor's limitations. Capturing and Processing landscapes and seascapes allows me to express my vision and reality of Nature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Gould View Post
    Ofer, and other manual advocates, let's look at this from a tutorial point of view.

    Ofer, you have manually set Av and Tv based upon........what?

    How do you independent of the camera's computer zero your meter? What is the "manual" process?

    Then, having refused to allow the camera's computer to make the exposure for you in the first instance, you click the shutter and the first thing you do is look at the histogram with the decision making highlight alert turned on. If it is blinking, if then graph is pushed against the right, you either increase your speed or decrease your aperture or decrease your ISO because the camera has said the initial chosen settings set manually do not work.

    Artie writes "If the background tonality is changing constantly, learn to work in Manual Mode and to adjust your exposure via the analog exposure scale in the viewfinder. By doing so and then checking the histogram, you will always have the correct exposure for the subject regardless of the tonality of the background (as long as the light level remains constant)."

    If you are working in manual and before commencing a shoot you set your triangle (ISO, Av, Tv) by pointing your lens at what you consider neutral and change one or more settings to zero your meter, thereby relying on the cameras's computer in the final instance, how is that different from choosing ISO, and either Av or Tv depending upon your subject (generalizing choosing Tv for avian/wild life and Av for landscape) and letting the camera's computer automatically zero the meter?

    I would find it a great assistance, and I am guessing many others would also find it a great assistance, if those advocating manual shooting with different subject matters would, step by step (1., 2., etc) describe the way they initially set their manual exposure and how they maintain it through the shoot.

    Roman, Roger, and many other landscapers, appreciate your tutorial.

    Ofer, Jim, John, Chas, and many other wildlife/avian shooters, appreciate your tutorial too.

    Cheers,
    Hi Jay,
    I think you nailed it above. When I approach a situation, if the background is variable and light constant,Whatever I approaching in, aperture priority, or manual mode, I'll take a quick test exposure, check the histogram and adjust if necessary and make another exposure if there is time, than move to manual if not already in manual mode.

    Sometimes I'm in aperture priority with variable light and then I take a test exposure (and check the meter reading) and see if there is an adjustment needed.

    Sometimes there is not time. Often, for example, on safari one is driving through the forest and light can be variable, so I'm in aperture priority mode. Sometimes a subject appears and one must get an image very fast. No time for test shots. If there are a few seconds, I'll check the meter reading. If the subject has white and the background dark, I'll dial in exposure compensation (amount determined by experience) and get the image quickly with no tests and no histogram check. If after those first images, I have time to check the histogram and adjust further I will. If the light is constant for the situation, I'll change to manual so the exposure will not vary.

    Landscapes are easier--plenty of time (mostly) to check exposure. Unless it is a quick grab shot, I'm in manual and I take some tests and check the histogram. Occasionally for landscapes on the run, e.g. safari and trying to get to a location, I'll put in exposure bracketing and take three shots in rapid succession. from aperture priority mode.

    Roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Clark View Post
    Hi Jay,
    I think you nailed it above. When I approach a situation, if the background is variable and light constant,Whatever I approaching in, aperture priority, or manual mode, I'll take a quick test exposure, check the histogram and adjust if necessary and make another exposure if there is time, than move to manual if not already in manual mode.
    Roger
    From this description, aren't you really using the camera's computer to determine "correct" preshooting exposure? And, regardless of whether you are shooting Av spot (this acknowledges that wider monitor patterns might consider elements in determining exposure you do not want to use; Chas you use spot to pick the element that you are going to rely upon to "zero with some type of compensation"), or you are using manual, i.e., none of the "triangle" items can change at the moment of exposure, you still immediately look a the histogram and let the camera tell you whether you have reached - for you - the optimum ETR.

    While I can understand in fast moving situations if you have preset zeroed exposure on the animal/bird you want "manual" so that the animal's exposure doesn't change as you move the camera to follow, Roman et al, I still haven't grasped the need for manual when locked down on a tripod with a predetermined depth of field that YOU want for a given image. For example, when I am shooting with a large foreground element and with a 16-35 I am very close to the image and I want that element sharp, it seems to make sense to me to shoot in Av. I have set ISO and Av, I do not care if Tv changes to give me proper exposure based upon the meter pattern.

    I am beating this horse because I want to "get" it. If I was in the USA I could spend a week with Roger, Roman, Chas, etc, and I would get it. The time I spent with Jim and James was invaluable when it came to birds.

    Now, through BPN, I and many others are going to understand the why of manual landscape exposure, or know why we are choosing to continue to reject 100% manual.

    Thanks all for continuing to teach!
    Cheers, Jay

    My Digital Art - "Nature Interpreted" - can now be view at http://www.luvntravlnphotography.com

    "Nature Interpreted" - Photography begins with your mind and eyes, and ends with an image representing your vision and your reality of the captured scene; photography exceeds the camera sensor's limitations. Capturing and Processing landscapes and seascapes allows me to express my vision and reality of Nature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Gould View Post
    From this description, aren't you really using the camera's computer to determine "correct" preshooting exposure?
    Yes, but I would say it more like: I use the camera's metering system to get close, and my interpretation of the histogram data and the scene to get the best exposure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Gould View Post
    Roman et al, I still haven't grasped the need for manual when locked down on a tripod with a predetermined depth of field that YOU want for a given image. For example, when I am shooting with a large foreground element and with a 16-35 I am very close to the image and I want that element sharp, it seems to make sense to me to shoot in Av. I have set ISO and Av, I do not care if Tv changes to give me proper exposure based upon the meter pattern.
    If one is taking a single frame, then it doesn't matter if one is in manual or Av. Like Artie said in the beginning of the series, if one finds the correct exposure is -1/3 stop from what the meter says, it will say that whether you are in manual, Av, or Tv. I make many landscape exposure in Av. But as I usually do mosaics, I'll find the best exposure and if in Av, switch to manual and set that same exposure and make my mosaic.

    Roger

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    Lifetime Member Jay Gould's Avatar
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    Down to one question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Clark View Post
    If one is taking a single frame, then it doesn't matter if one is in manual or Av. Like Artie said in the beginning of the series, if one finds the correct exposure is -1/3 stop from what the meter says, it will say that whether you are in manual, Av, or Tv. I make many landscape exposure in Av. But as I usually do mosaics, I'll find the best exposure and if in Av, switch to manual and set that same exposure and make my mosaic.

    Roger
    Why do you bother to switch to manual?
    Cheers, Jay

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    "Nature Interpreted" - Photography begins with your mind and eyes, and ends with an image representing your vision and your reality of the captured scene; photography exceeds the camera sensor's limitations. Capturing and Processing landscapes and seascapes allows me to express my vision and reality of Nature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Gould View Post
    Down to one question.

    Why do you bother to switch to manual?
    Hi Jay,

    When doing a mosaic, you don't want the exposure to vary between frames, so manual fixes the exposure for the entire sequence.
    I have, however, done the equivalent of split-density filter mosaics. I'll expose the row of frames that include a bright sky at one
    exposure then those below it on the land at a different exposure. Works well.

    Example:
    http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries...69.g-1024.html

    Roger

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    This was an interesting bit of reading. About a year ago, I had a sparkly new DSLR and no clue how to use it. Well, maybe some clues, but not a lot of them. I had my camera in Aperture priority most of the time because it seemed easier to only have to consider one leg of the exposure triangle and let my camera take care of the rest. I made a ton of poorly exposed photos that way and not a terrible amount of reasonably nicely exposed ones, too. In my noob state though, I wasn't really understanding why some of my photos came out and some didn't (why, why, why is my camera stupid half the time!?). So I looked for some classes to take and people to shoot with and learn from. There was a photography event at a botanical garden near my house in NC (since moved to FL) and during that event there was a beginner's DSLR class that was taught by someone named Haley Glatzer that I signed up for. Haley was young and she was clearly new at presenting this, but knew her stuff and explained things pretty well. Her dad (some guy who also is a photographer named Charles ) also sat in and offered some supporting explanation at various points in the class. One of the points where Mr. Glatzer did some extended speaking was on this very topic and I can honestly tell you that what he said at that time changed my photography for the better almost instantaneously. If you've read previous comments you already know more or less what it was. But basically the main points of what he said (and forgive me if you read this Mr. Glatzer and I mangle it terribly) were;

    1. Learn to shoot manual first and understand the light (my favorite quote: "you're not shooting for National Geographic, right? Go out there and make some mistakes and learn from them")
    2. If the light isn't changing and you have the correct exposure, you can just keep shooting without thinking about the exposure until something changes.
    3. Learn how the metering modes work on your specific camera so that when you choose to use Av or Tv mode you understand what the camera is doing and you can manage it (which you can't do until you've first done #1)

    I'm paraphrasing that because my memory is not so good. There were more things he said which have since started to make sense to me, but those were the things that I latched onto first and went to work on. After sheepishly asking Haley if she could help me figure out how to change the aperture on my camera in manual mode, which she politely did without giggling at me, pretty much every shot that I took that day was well exposed. Not perfect, probably, but extremely consistent. It was like night and day for me. And since that point, unless I make a major mistake (like forgetting that I set my ISO to 3200 the night before and end up with a few grainy photos until I start to question why everything is able to be shot at f/11 and 1/4000th and looks pretty bright...) I've been able to pretty consistently get a good exposure on most subjects.

    So my point for all this: being the one that all of you are talking about when you say "people who are learning", I can verify for those of you who have been at it too long to remember, it is definitely easier to understand and work in full manual than any of the priority modes for a beginner. It sounds scarier to us at first, but it is much simpler because we don't have to keep watching what the camera is doing when we recompose and we don't have to remember to use AE lock or anything. Full manual is idiot proof. Get the correct exposure once and fire away until something changes. Once you take the time to understand metering modes, and how your camera uses them, it's probably a time saver to use one of the priority modes for certain situations. So unlike some who have suggested that "pros should use full manual", my thinking would be that "only pros should use priority modes... noobs stick to manual".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fragale View Post
    This was an interesting bit of reading. About a year ago, I had a sparkly new DSLR and no clue how to use it. Well, maybe some clues, but not a lot of them. I had my camera in Aperture priority most of the time because it seemed easier to only have to consider one leg of the exposure triangle and let my camera take care of the rest. I made a ton of poorly exposed photos that way and not a terrible amount of reasonably nicely exposed ones, too. In my noob state though, I wasn't really understanding why some of my photos came out and some didn't (why, why, why is my camera stupid half the time!?). So I looked for some classes to take and people to shoot with and learn from. There was a photography event at a botanical garden near my house in NC (since moved to FL) and during that event there was a beginner's DSLR class that was taught by someone named Haley Glatzer that I signed up for. Haley was young and she was clearly new at presenting this, but knew her stuff and explained things pretty well. Her dad (some guy who also is a photographer named Charles ) also sat in and offered some supporting explanation at various points in the class. One of the points where Mr. Glatzer did some extended speaking was on this very topic and I can honestly tell you that what he said at that time changed my photography for the better almost instantaneously. If you've read previous comments you already know more or less what it was. But basically the main points of what he said (and forgive me if you read this Mr. Glatzer and I mangle it terribly) were;

    1. Learn to shoot manual first and understand the light (my favorite quote: "you're not shooting for National Geographic, right? Go out there and make some mistakes and learn from them")
    2. If the light isn't changing and you have the correct exposure, you can just keep shooting without thinking about the exposure until something changes.
    3. Learn how the metering modes work on your specific camera so that when you choose to use Av or Tv mode you understand what the camera is doing and you can manage it (which you can't do until you've first done #1)

    I'm paraphrasing that because my memory is not so good. There were more things he said which have since started to make sense to me, but those were the things that I latched onto first and went to work on. After sheepishly asking Haley if she could help me figure out how to change the aperture on my camera in manual mode, which she politely did without giggling at me, pretty much every shot that I took that day was well exposed. Not perfect, probably, but extremely consistent. It was like night and day for me. And since that point, unless I make a major mistake (like forgetting that I set my ISO to 3200 the night before and end up with a few grainy photos until I start to question why everything is able to be shot at f/11 and 1/4000th and looks pretty bright...) I've been able to pretty consistently get a good exposure on most subjects.

    So my point for all this: being the one that all of you are talking about when you say "people who are learning", I can verify for those of you who have been at it too long to remember, it is definitely easier to understand and work in full manual than any of the priority modes for a beginner. It sounds scarier to us at first, but it is much simpler because we don't have to keep watching what the camera is doing when we recompose and we don't have to remember to use AE lock or anything. Full manual is idiot proof. Get the correct exposure once and fire away until something changes. Once you take the time to understand metering modes, and how your camera uses them, it's probably a time saver to use one of the priority modes for certain situations. So unlike some who have suggested that "pros should use full manual", my thinking would be that "only pros should use priority modes... noobs stick to manual".
    All good stuff. No mode, however, is "idiot proof." If you do not know what the right compensation should be or cannot determine it, you are dead in the water whatever mode you are in :).
    BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.

    BIRDS AS ART Online Store: we will not sell you junk. 35 years of long lens experience. Please e-mail with gear questions.

    Check out the new SONY e-Guide and videos that I did with Patrick Sparkman here. Ten percent discount for BPN members,

    E-mail me at samandmayasgrandpa@att.net.










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