Manual vs Av and Other Modes

[Arthur Morris]

I agree 100%. That is why I currently use Manual Mode about 65% of the time, AV about 25% of the time, Tv about 9% of the time, and Program maybe 1% of the time. In my blog post I will expound on the whens and whys of the above,

[Roman Kurywczak]

Without waiting for Artie's post or Roman's comment I will add, that I am skeptical of ANY approach being correct 100% of the time, regardless of the topic. Doing something the same way 100% of the time seems to be stubborn and an unwillingness to accept that there might on occasion be a better approach to reach your goal.

and of course I disagree......why? Artie's quote from pane 53: "If you know how to get the right exposure when working in Manual mode then you must know how to get the right exposure using an automatic mode like Av or Tv. Why? Because the right exposure is the right exposure. And the histogram does not know what mode you were in when you made the image :) "
To me.....that means any mode you use...even M 100% of the time......if proficient at exposure.......you should get the correct exposure. If a situation arises where speed (gator post by Artie or changing light.......then another mode may be indeed faster......but not necessarily "better"......because no mater what.....I should be at the correct exposure!

This conversation is going nowhere fast.....although fun! Artie shoots Manual mode 65-70 percent of the time. Chas, Jim, and I in the upper 90%'s. That should be your first clue as to which mode you should be using more often! No mode is 100% perfect all the time.....but the mistake lies with us and not the camera. Every exposure mistake I have made was my own carelessness or a speed/reaction issue......remember....I shoot M 98% of the time. I would rather shoot in a mode that is 85-90% useful......than in a mode that is 10-25% useful. I won't even get into P.
Let me make this absolutely clear......I am saying no mode is perfect.......but I will stick with the 900 batting average.......rather than the 100-250 batting average.

I believe for learning purposes.....manual is the best way to learn.

[Arthur Morris]

roman--my left arm is in a sling so am typing with one finger--had some minor surgery this am. but i gotta say this, based on what you wrote above you would flunk both Deductive Reasoning 101 and Debating 101....

i am hoping that perhaps chas will point out why....

[Desmond Chan]

To me.....that means any mode you use...even M 100% of the time......if proficient at exposure.......you should get the correct exposure.

True !

Sometime ago, there was no auto-exposure mode in any camera. The cameras didn't even have a built-in exposure meter. Even these days, some still use an external exposure meter during their shoots. Manual mode may be slower for certain scenarios but that would be its only shortfall, I'd say. FWIW, I myself rarely need to use auto exposure mode.

[Steven Kersting]

Steven,

Here is the bear image I was discussing. You can see the background is very dark. The problem with relying on spot mode is then you are stuck needing to keep the center spot on the thing you need to meter.

Actually, not necessarily. Because I largely use dynamic focus point and C focus mode the focus point moves with the subject (That might be Nikon specific. I can set the initial point anywhere in the frame, or focus and recompose). Then the "active" focus point is what is used for the spot metering location. It stays with the subject as the subject moves.

My choices are often quite different if I am stationary and set up a tripod. But even then I seldom go "full manual". The reality is I can get almost the same control as full manual by simply locking the ISO in either A or S(Tv) modes. If you change exposure then something always has to give and I generally prefer to give ISO first (within limits).

Now, I agree there are times where metering a scene and waiting for something to enter makes full manual (locking exposure) useful, assuming what enters is not far from "neutral" or is previously known (exposure bias set). And I can't easily do that in any of the Auto modes. But that dictates a constant scene and a neutral/known subject color. Yes, for some that happens a lot. A lot of the time I might be out "expecting" a certain subject; it's the reason I'm there to start with. But in those cases, when something completely unexpected happens it's usually a loss.

There's no "perfect" answer. There are many "solutions".

[Steven Kersting]

Steven, Jim's Neiger's comments in Pane 90 are 100% correct. When working with a given subject and backgrounds of varying tonalities working in Manual mode is the way to go. For everyone. It is fast and simple.... Without exception.

Furthermore, you comments in Pane 91 (which include, "assuming I can keep the "spot" on target," "Initially I simply press the FN button to switch to spot mode. Assuming the spot encompasses more than just the egret the exposure will be correct. As the bird fills the spot it will become more underexposed (better than blown out) and when it begins to fill the frame release the Fn button and switch back to matrix metering, exposure is still variable but almost entirely usable/correct. Time permitting with the busy BG I would also switch the aperture to wider (typically set 2 stops down from wide open, both changes take less than 1 sec) but it is probably a mute point due to the focal distance," and "In both cases I do not believe you could do any better (consistently) in manual mode" all point to a method that is convoluted, exceedingly complex, and at best, fraught with inaccuracy. And you last statement is not at all correct: working in Manual mode as Jim describes will give you a perfect exposure for every frame regardless of the tonality of the bird, its size in the frame, or the changing tonality of the subject. By your own admission your method often does not yield a perfect exposure....

You talk about making changes over a second or over several seconds. The best flight poses/light angles are often available only for a fraction of a single second.....

Lastly, I have--as far back as the ABP advised against spot-metering for avian subjects.

I think you may have missed the part of "absolute worst case". No time to pre-meter, subject completely unknown. Settings at some "default" (I gave mine). Yes, it will be less than ideal thru ought parts of the scenario, but (probably) never unusable.

I noted making changes "instantly" because seconds could be a very long time. (at least I meant to). I can argue any metering mode could be less desirable for a given situation...on my camera the metering is set to matrix, the fn button activates spot metering, and the preview button activates center weighted (set to 12mm, I got that wrong in my previous post).

As I noted in the post above, once focus lock is achieved the "spot" will stay with the subject thru-out a scene when using dynamic/c.

But, again I understand where metering a scene and locking things down can be beneficial...If you have that ability I might suggest using a w/b disk (I have a couple cheap $5 versions that work well) and taking an incident reading as your start point. By using a WB disk and pointing it at the light source you can use your camera as an incident meter. After a few tries you will know if if your particular combination (camera/disk) gives over/under/correct readings and how to set for scene (the results will be consistent). In such situations, getting correct exposure should be pretty much a non-issue.

[Steven Kersting]

Without waiting for Artie's post or Roman's comment I will add, that I am skeptical of ANY approach being correct 100% of the time, regardless of the topic. Doing something the same way 100% of the time seems to be stubborn and an unwillingness to accept that there might on occasion be a better approach to reach your goal.

This is 100% correct.
I hope I have not been misunderstood to be saying auto modes are "better" than manual.
I will change modes and settings (i.e. ISO range) based upon the subject/intent. I will even go full manual occasionally, but that is seldom since it usually doesn't suit my working style.

[Don Thompson]

This is 100% correct.
I hope I have not been misunderstood to be saying auto modes are "better" than manual.
I will change modes and settings (i.e. ISO range) based upon the subject/intent. I will even go full manual occasionally, but that is seldom since it usually doesn't suit my working style.

I don't believe I misunderstood you and didn't mean to imply that. All I am saying is that in my opinion, no mode can be 100% effective 100% of the time and if someone maintains that position, then it my opinion, they are being stubborn and unwilling to concede that at times another mode may be better. I am still relatively new at photography, but to me, this applies to life in general. No one approach works 100% of the time.

And not because I am sucking up to the maestro, but Artie's approach seems to be the more logical approach. Use the proper mode for the proper application. Don't be locked into one mode all the time.

I also refuse to believe that camera manufactures put those other modes in a camera simply for those of use who don't know how to get the proper exposure using manual mode.

Again, this if from a complete novice and is only based on my simple logic and not on experience. Up until this discussion, I actually thought I was doing what I thought others had suggested in the past. I hope there is continued discussion and do look forward to Artie's blog post when he is able to type using all of fingers instead of just the one.

[Steven Kersting]

I believe for learning purposes.....manual is the best way to learn.

This I agree with. I also agree that exposure mistakes are user error, not camera error.

Metering modes are not "dumb", focus modes are not "dumb", the camera doesn't "make errors". In fact there is a lot of technology in there you are paying a lot of money for that can make your life easier in many instances. But there is no one "mode" that will work in all situations (and what they are doing and why can be confusing initially). If you misapply a setting the results will be a miss.

Would you buy/use your computer simply to function as a calculator? I wouldn't, I'd buy a calculator. Maybe they should make a "dumb" digital camera; seriously. It should be much cheaper and would suit many quite well for their style/subject (nothing wrong with that). Or even better, you could get better ISO/Sensor for the same money. I might even buy one then.

I will say that learning "the basics" (exposure/manual mode) is the beginning, and it works. I would then suggest learning how your camera works in the other modes (my Nikon may be different than an entry level Nikon or a Canon). THEN, choose what suits YOU best for the situation. Ignore what I, or anyone else, might choose. IMO, "just" learning/using manual is not making the most of the options available to you.

My usable exposure average (manual less than ten percent of the time) is well into the ninety percentile. And I do specify "usable exposure". I could increase my "perfect" exposure rate into the 90 percentile range, but that would necessitate a change of style (more available time) and the capture of fewer images. And make no mistake, my usable exposure ration does not equate to "keeper" ratio. (depending upon the subject/situation my keeper ratio *can* reach into the ninety percentile range, but is typically more around fifty/sixty percent)


I don't think this is pointless at all, nor "going anywhere". The total gist I get is:
I choose manual most of the time, or I prefer auto modes most of the time, but it doesn't matter. Exposure is exposure.
And that is exactly what should be being put out. Learn exposure, learn your camera, and choose for yourself what suits your style/subject at the time.

[Roman Kurywczak]

Hey Don,
Define "better". I think I clearly stated that some modes may be quicker in different modes.....but never better. Let's be logical........if Artie is using Manual 2/3 of the time.......shouldn't you? He is after all proficient in exposure.....no doubt. But I have seen more mistakes in the field when people use AV than anything else. So why teach any other mode than M......to those who are newbies/up and coming. Ask yourself this.....how often do you use M mode as compared to all the others? If it isn't at leat Artie's percentage.....then I think you should reconsider your modes and learn M first. I think people are leaving out the "once you are proficient" part. Pesonally......I think manual mode is a piece of cake and I have noidea where the AV is easier thing comes from!
PS Hope you heal fast Artie and can type soon!

[Roman Kurywczak]

Hey Steve,
I was typing while you were....at least we agree that manual is the best way to teach/learn! I'll work on the rest after dinner!

[Roger Clark]

So Roger,
How often would you say you are in AV mode? What percentage of the time? I ask because I want to respond to Don's confusion above also.....but will await your reply.

Hi Roman,

I'm probably remembering wrong, but I believe about 1/2 to 3/4 of the time I am in manual mode, most of the rest in AV mode and a tiny percentage in other modes.

If I am doing single frame landscapes on a hike, I'll most likely work in Av. But if I start a multi-frame mosaic (which is what I like to do a lot of), I always work in manual.

Now that I've got my new linux system (mostly) up and running (photoshop in virtualbox, windows 7), I can write a script to go out and search my images and derive some statistics. I'll do that as soon as I am able; lots of family coming to visit so it might be a couple of weeks.

Roger

[Steven Kersting]

IMO, using manual modes proficiently is easier than using auto modes proficiently (*if* you understand basic exposure).
Using auto modes means you are letting the camera make some decisions for you. If you do not understand the decisions it is going to make and why, then your results will vary widely. If you do not know what/when/why the camera will choose what it does, then you ARE giving up control and you almost might as well use program mode (I do on the rare occasion ).

[Desmond Chan]

All I am saying is that in my opinion, no mode can be 100% effective 100% of the time

I think it's more correct to say no mode is more efficient 100% of the time than the other modes are. They are all just as effective, i.e., give you a "correct" exposure (provided you know how to use them), IMO.

I also refuse to believe that camera manufactures put those other modes in a camera simply for those of use who don't know how to get the proper exposure using manual mode.

I doubt it very much as whether you use auto or manual modes, you still have to know about exposure. I don't think Nikon, Canon, or anybody else would think otherwise.

[Mike Milicia]

Now, I agree there are times where metering a scene and waiting for something to enter makes full manual (locking exposure) useful, assuming what enters is not far from "neutral" or is previously known (exposure bias set). And I can't easily do that in any of the Auto modes. But that dictates a constant scene and a neutral/known subject color.

This seems to imply that in order to set the correct exposure in Manual Exposure mode, you would need to know the tone of the subject and/or have a "constant scene". This is where you lose me.
If you are in Manual Exposure Mode in this type of situation, you would simply set the exposure for the incident light. The tone of the expected subject is largely irrelevant (see next paragraph for some fine points) and the contents of the scene is completely irrelevant. The only variable here is how you measure the incident light. If you are in the same light as your expected subject will be, an incident meter is one option. Another option would be to use the in-camera meter (which is still working when in Manual mode) with your metering pattern of choice on anything in the scene and set the exposure according to how the tone of whatever it is that you are metering differs from neutral or, in the case of matrix or evaluative metering, how it differs from what the camera's algorithms would normally come up with for that scene in the type of light that is present. There are dozens of ways you can effectively measure the incident light but the important point with Manual Exposure mode is that once you do, and once you set the proper exposure for that incident light, you are good to go regardless of the tone of the subject, where the subject appears in the scene (as long as it is in the same light that you have metered for), how large it is in the frame or what the BG is. As long as your subject is in the same light that you metered for, your exposure will always be correct. That is why Manual Mode is almost universally recommended for situations where the intensity of the incident light that is hitting your subject is not changing.

With all that said, there is some "fine tuning" you can do that WILL depend on the tone of the subject. For example, if you are expecting a brilliant white subject and the incident light is fairly bright, you may want to set the exposure such that you are intentionally underexposing by 1/3 to 1 stop to get more detail in the whites.
Another example is that if your subject has no bright highlights and there are no potential bright highlights in the surrounding scene that you care about, you may want to intentionally overexpose the scene by 1/3 to 1 stop in order to minimize noise (often called "Exposing to the Right"). In this latter case, you would most likely bring the exposure back down in post-processing so that, for example, the black bear is black instead of gray. But these are just optimizations regarding how you come up with the exposure setting and, if you wish, you can easily do these tweaks on the fly as you encounter different subjects. But, in any case, once the exposure is set, you have all of the advantages of using Manual Mode in constant light. Also note that these "optimizations" still need to be applied in the form of tweaking your exposure compensation when you are using an autoexposure mode.

Of course, the above is not a complete treatment of all the tips and techniques that you can employ when using Manual Exposure mode in various situations but it covers the basics. The important point here is that in certain situations, Manual Exposure mode has some very specific advantages over any autoexposure mode.

Now if the intensity of the incident light is erratic or rapidly changing, you would probably be better off with an autoexposure mode. But then you also better keep a close eye on the tone of your subject, tone of the BG, size of the subject in the frame, etc. in order to make the required adjustments to the exposure compensation as you are photographing.

[Charles Glatzer]

Steve,

Priority Modes do not make decisions, they only alter a variable. You choose how and what to do with the info provided by the Meter Pattern.


Chas

[Roman Kurywczak]

Ok.....now I think we are getting somewhere! Roger......enjoy the family but your recollection of the percentage is fine! My biggest concern in this thread is that someone of Artie's stature would be misconstued as being in AV more often than in AV. Even I admit....as we all do that AV or the other modes can be "easier" in certain situations.....especially when you become proficient in exposure. I just want people to know that you should become proficient first........then you can join our philosophical debate.....as to which is best!
I do believe what you are comfortable with/practice......does come in to play.....but I will stand by my statement: If you really want to learn exposure......shoot Manual mode! In today's digital age.....it's free! Knowing and understanding the metering modes as well as your histogram.....all go hand in hand with exposure!
Considering some of the names on this thread......ask yourself.....what percentage of the time do you shoot manual? If it isn't in the 65-70% range(or more for my tastes).....perhaps it is time to start!

[Desmond Chan]

IMO, using manual modes proficiently is easier than using auto modes proficiently (*if* you understand basic exposure).
Using auto modes means you are letting the camera make some decisions for you.

I think there's some misunderstanding of manual exposure mode here. It seems to me many have forgot one thing: manual or auto exposure mode regardless, we still use the built-in exposure meter of the camera (unless you're the kind who don't use any exposure meter at all). I think it's worth repeating what Chas said in pane 34:

With Manual Priority you make the same cognitive decision you would in Av Priority, that is to set the aperture first into the camera. Thereafter...in Av the camera will set the shutter speed and you add compensation to derive at the correct exposure for the scene as viewed. In Manual you adjust the shutter-speed adding in more or less exposure to derive at the correct exposure. Both methods require that you turn a wheel, shutter speed in Manual, comp in Av.

It's really not that complicated.

As long as you understand what is actually happening by adjusting the exposure compensation (read you camera manual for the answer), and you know the difference between one aperture and the other, between one shutter speed and the other, and between one ISO and the other, then you can do it in the manual exposure mode as well even if you use auto mode regularly.

[Roman Kurywczak]

Dang I type slow.....and I have 2 good arms......have to read now!

[Desmond Chan]

Another option would be to use the in-camera meter [snip]

The in-camera meter is a reflective light measuring meter and is not an incident light meter, right?

Just checking

[Mike Milicia]

The in-camera meter is a reflective light measuring meter and is not an incident light meter, right?

Just checking

Yes, the in-camera meter is a reflective meter but if you know the tone of the scene, you can use it to deduce the incident light. That's what exposure compensation is all about. Exposure is always based on the incident light. If you are using a reflective meter, you need to compensate for the reflectivity of the scene to come up with the proper exposure for the amount of incident light. You would do this the same way in manual mode as you would for an autoexposure mode.

[Steven Kersting]

Steve,

Priority Modes do not make decisions, they only alter a variable. You choose how and what to do with the info provided by the Meter Pattern.


Chas

Well, with this I disagree to some extent. The caveat being that when *I'm* using auto modes I also have the ISO set to an auto range. In that case, different modes behave differently in the choices the camera makes. (it's not as simple as "in S(tv) mode the camera trades aperture" anymore)

[Charles Glatzer]

Arthur Morris;

Assuming the spot encompasses more than just the egret the exposure will be correct.

It is far better to pick one unchanging tonality that fills the spot pattern in the same light as that falling on the subject, than to have mixed values within the pattern. Mixed values will make it difficult to assess how much to deviate from the suggested mid-tone provided by spot pattern to render the subject accurately. That was a mouthful-lol


And you last statement is not at all correct: working in Manual mode as Jim describes will give you a perfect exposure for every frame regardless of the tonality of the bird, its size in the frame, or the changing tonality of the subject. By your own admission your method often does not yield a perfect exposure....

Agreed....a Perfect exposure every time, hmm. I would think the accuracy depends upon how one interprets the meter recommendation, and whether or not they apply the correct amount of deviation thereafter to exposure correctly. More the madness behind the method, if you will.
.....

Lastly, I have--as far back as the ABP advised against spot-metering for avian subjects.

When using spot for Avian subjects, who says you have to meter the bird? Why not substitute meter another element in the same light, as I mentioned in my first response above.

Best Amigo,

Chas

[Steven Kersting]

I think there's some misunderstanding of manual exposure mode here. It seems to me many have forgot one thing: manual or auto exposure mode regardless, we still use the built-in exposure meter of the camera (unless you're the kind who don't use any exposure meter at all). I think it's worth repeating what Chas said in pane 34:



It's really not that complicated.

As long as you understand what is actually happening by adjusting the exposure compensation (read you camera manual for the answer), and you know the difference between one aperture and the other, between one shutter speed and the other, and between one ISO and the other, then you can do it in the manual exposure mode as well even if you use auto mode regularly.

No disagreement from me.
The one thing that should have been interesting in my response to the "scenarios" was my first corrective action (and second) was to change metering mode. It was not to adjust the "exposure triangle".

[Charles Glatzer]

Well, with this I disagree to some extent. The caveat being that when *I'm* using auto modes I also have the ISO set to an auto range. In that case, different modes behave differently in the choices the camera makes. (it's not as simple as "in S(tv) mode the camera trades aperture" anymore)

With all the Auto this and Auto that you are suggesting to use I would never get a proper exposure. Why introduce YET another with Auto ISO. I would at that point set the camera on P for professional (lol) and keep my fingers crossed.

Chas

[Steven Kersting]

This seems to imply that in order to set the correct exposure in Manual Exposure mode, you would need to know the tone of the subject and/or have a "constant scene".

Well, in fact you do to some extent. Even if we assume one took an incident reading, and the reading was 100% accurate, it won't necessarily deliver the best results for a given subject. Often you will need to adjust one way or the other to get the most from a black or white subject.

The rest I agree with in general. To me, the main difference is almost entirely a "style issue". One is a "tripod mentality" and mine is more a "journalist" type mentality.

I'll be the first to admit that I could certainly benefit from setting up a tripod and taking more time on occasion.

[Steven Kersting]

With all the Auto this and Auto that you are suggesting to use I would never get a proper exposure. Why introduce YET another with Auto ISO. I would at that point set the camera on P for professional (lol) and keep my fingers crossed.

Chas

LOL! It's not that bad!
And I seldom agree with the choices P mode makes.

[Arthur Morris]

Arthur Morris;

Lastly, I have--as far back as the ABP advised against spot-metering for avian subjects.

When using spot for Avian subjects, who says you have to meter the bird? Why not substitute meter another element in the same light, as I mentioned in my first response above.

Best Amigo,

Chas

Chas, Steven is stating that he uses spot-metering for flying birds....

[Charles Glatzer]

Chas, Steven is stating that he uses spot-metering for flying birds....

Ah, got ya. Then my reply to Steve is REDICULOUS!

But, my reply about using Spot with Avain remains valid.

Chas

[Don Thompson]

Hey Don,
Define "better". I think I clearly stated that some modes may be quicker in different modes.....but never better. Let's be logical........if Artie is using Manual 2/3 of the time.......shouldn't you? He is after all proficient in exposure.....no doubt. But I have seen more mistakes in the field when people use AV than anything else. So why teach any other mode than M......to those who are newbies/up and coming. Ask yourself this.....how often do you use M mode as compared to all the others? If it isn't at leat Artie's percentage.....then I think you should reconsider your modes and learn M first. I think people are leaving out the "once you are proficient" part. Pesonally......I think manual mode is a piece of cake and I have noidea where the AV is easier thing comes from!
PS Hope you heal fast Artie and can type soon!

Better may have been a poor choice of words. What I am saying is that depending on the situation, one mode may be more appropriate than the other modes. I agree that all modes should be used at one time or another. Some in the discussion seem to be saying that you should only use manual mode 100%. I refuse to accept that. I may be relying on one of the priority modes more than I should, and should be using manual more often. But to say that any one mode is the proper mode ALL of the time, to me is wrong.

I do in fact use all modes when I think they are appropriate. I will, based on this discussion, make more of an effort to use manual mode.

Now, if you or someone else would direct me to a good source where I can begin figuring out how to properly use manual mode more often, I would appreciate it.

[Arthur Morris]

Chas-o-rama, I covered spot metering in the original ABP. And the trick about metering a tone away from the bird is there too :). Funny thing about spot metering is that it is a lot like using a hand held meter: most folks using either of them have zero clue as to how to use it correctly.....

I do feel as I am sure that you do that the more metering modes that you master the better photographer you will become. The problem is that most folks do not understand exposure theory so they are dead in the water before they start... Folks who wish to learn exposure theory are directed to the aforementioned ABP.

[Charles Glatzer]

Chas-o-rama, I covered spot metering in the original ABP. And the trick about metering a tone away from the bird is there too :). Funny thing about spot metering is that it is a lot like using a hand held meter: most folks using either of them have zero clue as to how to use it correctly.....

I do feel as I am sure that you do that the more metering modes that you master the better photographer you will become. The problem is that most folks do not understand exposure theory so they are dead in the water before they start... Folks who wish to learn exposure theory are directed to the aforementioned ABP.

I am 100% in agreement. We should tag team them together one of these days. I bet we could fill a stadium!

Since were plugging, wink. The STL Tech Series in FL next week is filled to capacity, with 10 additional wanting to attend having to be turned away. Another will be announced for Oct, to be held in the beautiful NC mountains during Fall foliage by weeks end.

Chas

[James Shadle]

Roger,

I am less of a gambler, preferring the higher odds based on my knowledge rather than predetermined algorithms chosen by another. For me Auto induces more variables, not less.

Best,

Chas

I'm with Chas, I believe (most will disagree) I'm smarter than my camera.

[Steven Kersting]

Chas, Steven is stating that he uses spot-metering for flying birds....

I will use it whenever I know another metering mode will be fooled. If I have the spot on the bird the exposure will be correct. If the bird is itself at an extreme color then EC is called for. It's not that hard.

There is a significant difference between fixed central focal point/spot metering and dynamic focus point/spot metering (at least w/ my Nikon).
In dynamic mode the focus point is also the metering point and it will move thru the frame with the subject. (actually, in any focus mode the active focus point is the metering point for spot metering)
I can choose if it follows the subject thru the central 9, 21 or 51 points (or 51pt 3D) I generally have it set to 51 point (not 3D) unless I know the subject will be large in the FOV and fairly reliably trackable (then I'll go to the better 9 central).

Now, if I were to attempt to use a fixed central focus point and spot metering I would agree...It probably won't work very well. I'd have to bee very good/lucky to keep the spot on subject.

Again, it all comes down to knowing what your camera is going to do when you "give up" some control..

That said, on quick scan of my BIF images more are taken w/ center weighted metering..I was unaware of that tendency in my selections. I just do what "feels right", but for the sake of openness I confess... I think in those cases I have switched primary camera metering to CW and dumped Matrix altogether. I will usually do this when I know the BG will throw the metering.

BTW, I am relatively new to avian photography as a specific subject. So I do not purport to be particularly expert in the specifics related to the subject (it's why I joined the forum). But in pretty much any other area I do have some notable experience, and exposure is exposure...

[Desmond Chan]

In dynamic mode the focus point is also the metering point and it will move thru the frame with the subject..

That's what it supposed to do but in reality, most if not all the time it can't follow the subject through the frame. Perhaps it would if the subject is slow enough. I heard that it works for large subject that moves side to side, like when shooting a tennis player from the side line.

Hate to tell you, Steven, but I do find your way to get the exposure is...kind of complicated

[Desmond Chan]

Now, if you or someone else would direct me to a good source where I can begin figuring out how to properly use manual mode more often, I would appreciate it.

Just do it, Don. Experiment. Once you know how well you can use manual exposure mode, you'll know when to use it.

[Arthur Morris]

I will use it whenever I know another metering mode will be fooled.

Steve, Manual mode can never be fooled.

[Charles Glatzer]

Hate to tell you, Steven, but I do find your way to get the exposure is...kind of complicated

I have to agree, way more complicated than necessary. And, confusing for the rest of us. But, if it works for you

Chas

[Steven Kersting]

Steve, Manual mode can never be fooled.

Metering can always be fooled (regardless of mode)
I agree that for difficult situations Manual may be the only solution for reliable results.

[Arthur Morris]

When someone gets the wrong exposure in Manual mode it is because either they have been fooled or because they made a mental error. Manual mode is not metering, it is an expression of how smart (or dumb) the operator is....

[Steven Kersting]

That's what it supposed to do but in reality, most if not all the time it can't follow the subject through the frame. Perhaps it would if the subject is slow enough. I heard that it works for large subject that moves side to side, like when shooting a tennis player from the side line.

There are several variables that affect the accuracy of the tracking. One of the biggest is the focus delay setting (if your camera has it, entry level models don't give any control over it). Basically, if the subject is too fast for autofocus, if you can't keep the subject in the primary FOV, or if the focus delay is set too short it won't work well.
In those cases I'll usually have to set up with either "trap focus" (just flip to single servo, but it still won't work for fast small subjects), or zone focus. But if I'm doing that, I'm probably pretty stationary with a subject that I can anticipate (or I'm trying anyways). In that case I would also probably switch towards more manual control.

But that said, it doesn't matter because the issue isn't camera settings it's metering error. If you can anticipate it and eliminate it, it's not a problem.

Hate to tell you, Steven, but I do find your way to get the exposure is...kind of complicated

It is. I stated earlier that to be fluent with the auto modes is more difficult than full manual, and it still won't always work reliably.

For me it is easier, once I've made a couple of decisions I often don't have to change any primary setting. Maybe switch metering modes or add EC.

But again, it largely comes down to shooting style/subject. I tend to think more about "getting the shot" and not about "getting the perfect shot". If I am working differently (i.e. stationary) I will usually end up with settings much closer to full manual.

[Steven Kersting]

When someone gets the wrong exposure in Manual mode it is because either they have been fooled or because they made a mental error. Manual mode is not metering, it is an expression of how smart (or dumb) the operator is....

Whoa, are we talking about running around applying the sunny 16 rule? I've forgotten most of that.

If not, then it always starts with metering. If you are able to compensate for metering errors in manual, then you should be able to do it using an auto mode.

I get that in full manual I can compensate for metering errors once and largely not think about it for a while (shooting style dependent). But you really *should* be thinking about it every time you click the shutter (regardless of method).

[jack williamson]

Outstanding discussion! I am here to learn and if you can't learn on this site...well.

Jack

[WIlliam Maroldo]

Steve; can you explain to me why you need a meter at all in manual exposure? In manual exposure you are not compensating for anything.

regards~Bill

[Don Thompson]

When someone gets the wrong exposure in Manual mode it is because either they have been fooled or because they made a mental error. Manual mode is not metering, it is an expression of how smart (or dumb) the operator is....

Please explain further. Do I not use the meter in the camera to tell when I have the correct exposure. Or do I just SWAG it and until I have enough experience to get the exposure correct, I just pray I am correct?

Maybe I am dense, and this may be clear to those of you who have done this for years/decades, but to me with less experience, I am more confused than ever.

Sorry.

[Charles Glatzer]

Metering can always be fooled (regardless of mode)
I agree that for difficult situations Manual may be the only solution for reliable results.

If you are interpeting the meter recommedation, choosing the exposure variables, and physically setting them into the camera how can it be the Meters Fault?

The meter only does what is is programmed to do, it is you who decides what to do with the info provided.

Chas

[Arthur Morris]

If not, then it always starts with metering. If you are able to compensate for metering errors in manual, then you should be able to do it using an auto mode.

Steve, I am starting to get frustrated trying to get you to understand the important points below one last time.

When the light is relatively consistent and the background is changing or may change rapidly from moment to moment nobody is smart/fast enough to work in an automatic mode like Av. So we determine the correct exposure (usually via a histogram/blinkies check) for a given subject and then set that exposure manually. If a subject with a different tonality comes along it is easy to make the required changes quickly and easily say by adjusting the shutter speed (as most of us have learned to do).

As has been said above in so many words, trying to spot meter a bird in flight is totally insane.

Respectfully.

[Charles Glatzer]

Please explain further. Do I not use the meter in the camera to tell when I have the correct exposure. Or do I just SWAG it and until I have enough experience to get the exposure correct, I just pray I am correct?

Maybe I am dense, and this may be clear to those of you who have done this for years/decades, but to me with less experience, I am more confused than ever.

Sorry.

Don,

The Meter provides a recommendation, which may or may not be the correct exposure, it is up to you to know what to do with the suggestion according to the choice of pattern and tonal values therein. Many are under the false assumption that if they center/null the meter manually or the camera does it in Auto Mode that the correct exposure has been found.

Chas

[WIlliam Maroldo]

Don, remember way back when Ofer started this post? I shoot exactly the same way, although occasionally I'll let the camera pick the shutter-speed, not because it produces better results, it doesn't, but after a few hundred (or thousand) shots I get a bit fatigued and I start making errors.
Read Ofers post, ignore everything else, and you'll be OK.

Thanks for your comments guys!
Melissa, here is the "secret" how I expose.... I simply NEVER expose AV or TV - only Manual. I always expose in a way that the brightest element in the image (particularly on the bird) is almost hot - in this case the white. You should have the highlight alert ON. Exposing manually with the histogram pushed as much as possible to the right without burning anything will result in the best possible image with the best signal to noise ratio, and the best colours. It may not look very nice in camera as it will be a bit bright but when opened in photoshop and adjusted a bit you will see the beauty of this technique. Don't relay on the camera to do this simple thing for you when you can do it so much better.
Just my 2 cents,
Cheers,Ofer

My and Ofer's 2 cents. regards~Bill

[Arthur Morris]

Don, re:

Originally Posted by Arthur Morris: When someone gets the wrong exposure in Manual mode it is because either they have been fooled or because they made a mental error. Manual mode is not metering, it is an expression of how smart (or dumb) the operator is....

Please explain further. Do I not use the meter in the camera to tell when I have the correct exposure. Or do I just SWAG it and until I have enough experience to get the exposure correct, I just pray I am correct?

Maybe I am dense, and this may be clear to those of you who have done this for years/decades, but to me with less experience, I am more confused than ever.

Sorry.

No problema. Even when you are in Manual mode the metering pattern that you have set is active. When you play with the shutter speed and the aperture the indicator of over or under-exposure on the analog scale in your viewfinder changes. It is the photographer through study and understanding and with digital, via histogram/blinkies checking who determines where the indicator should be resting.

Please see my next post here. It may help :)