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Thread: Making Use of Expensive Long Lenses

  1. #1
    Cecil Kirksey
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    Default Making Use of Expensive Long Lenses

    I am in the process of doing a simple analysis of images posted here for review to determine how often bird shooters really use the features of their expensive long lenses, i.e., 300mm f/2.8 L IS etc. Now if the DOF is of concern one will increase the f# and if camera shake or subject motion is a concern then one will increase the SS. However, lens IS should take care of any significant camera shake correct? So what would the minimum recommended SS be for an IS lens, static subject and shooting on a tripod or other stable mount? Do you automatiocally think in terms of DOF thus increasing your f#? Therefore requiring a lower SS and/or and increase in ISO. Which do you do?

    I hope to present a summary of my analysis soon. The database is 63 recent bird images pulled in order from the critique forum. One item that was a surprise is the use of high ISO, i.e., greater than 400. More later.

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    BPN Member Chris Ober's Avatar
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    moving to photography gear forum
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    Clk,

    What is the purpose of your study? Are you trying to justify a purchase of a super telephoto lens? Let me say, that if you are having trouble justifying the expense of a big lens, I had a lot of reservations too. It took me many months the psyche myself up to spend $5400 for a 500 f/4 (this was a decade+ ago). But it was a life changing purchase! The opportunities opened up is amazing; a smaller lens of the same focal length simply can do it. That and pro series cameras that enable AF at f/8 means you can get incredible reach with good shutter speeds. No survey needed. A little known factor is small aperture lenses are limiting fine detail and contrast due to diffraction. See:
    http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/telephoto_reach/

    (You can see on my web site, many many images made wide open.)

    Roger

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    My lens (sigma 120-300 f/2.8) doesn't have IS (OS on sigma), and normally I use it with a 1.4 TC, it gives me 420mm f/4. When I make a shot, I need to consider two things, do I have enough light? do I want more or less DOF?
    Then I choose my ISO considering this two factor's...
    Sometimes when I'm shooting a low speed (less than 1/160) I wish my lens had IS

  5. #5
    Cecil Kirksey
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    Hi Roger:
    Not really trying to justify the expense. I am considering the 300mm f/2.8 L IS I with the 1.4 II and 2.0 III extenders though. But I was really interested in what shot parameters photographers posting here were using to achieve what they consider acceptable quality for posting. It was not until that I gathered the data that it just seemed that the use of the largest available aperture was not predominate. Also the SSs seem very high for static bird shots using a stable platform. I have reviewed the many discussions regarding the use of IS on a tripod, some by you in fact. Longer FLs are always desirable but what would be an acceptable max f#? Is IS really required for static bird shots? Keep in mind that we have a very limited long lens selection. But if birders are a dominant market then perhaps they can influence the lens makers. But I suspect that PJs and sport shooters dominant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clk_walker View Post
    Hi Roger:
    . Longer FLs are always desirable but what would be an acceptable max f#? Is IS really required for static bird shots? Keep in mind that we have a very limited long lens selection.
    By max f# I assume you mean slowest f/ratio (e.g. f/16, f/22, f/32).
    In my view, there is no max for the slowest f/ratio. If you need the depth of field, blur from diffraction is preferable to blur from out of focus. But at f/8 and slower, diffraction is definitely affecting the image.

    Regarding the need for IS, it is easily demonstrated by using a camera with live view. Turn on live view, set max magnification (e.g. 10x) and look at the image as you hold the camera and point at a subject. It is amazing how much the image vibrates. Then turn in IS and see the amazing difference.

    Roger

  7. #7
    Cecil Kirksey
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Clark View Post
    By max f# I assume you mean slowest f/ratio (e.g. f/16, f/22, f/32).
    In my view, there is no max for the slowest f/ratio. If you need the depth of field, blur from diffraction is preferable to blur from out of focus. But at f/8 and slower, diffraction is definitely affecting the image.

    Regarding the need for IS, it is easily demonstrated by using a camera with live view. Turn on live view, set max magnification (e.g. 10x) and look at the image as you hold the camera and point at a subject. It is amazing how much the image vibrates. Then turn in IS and see the amazing difference.

    Roger
    Roger:
    I have no doubt that the image will appear to shimmer due to whatever. But the question is: At what shutter speed is IS not necessary? I have just reread the Canon suggestions on IS for the new long lenses. On a tripod IS in the correct mode is effectively disabled if the shutter speed is fast enough. So my question was merely trying to understand a bird photographers need for IS when shooting from a stable platfrom with a static bird as a subject if the shutter speeds are > 1/1000s.

    With my lowly 400mm f/5.6L on a tripod at f/5.6 I always try to shoot at least 1/400s and ISO 100-200. But with my new 1DIV I am likely to start shooting at 100-400 and keep the shutter speed up. I am still strieving for what I would call my perfect image. It is a combination of technique, equipment, light and a cooperative bird. Hard to get all four to come together. So my quest is to try to determine how you other bird shooters are getting such find shots at least with respect to equipment and shooting parameters . Thus my motivation for doing the data analysis.

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    The 300mm f/2.8L IS is a wonderful lens for handholding, even with the 2x TC. Even with the IS you'll want a shutter speed up above 1/500th second and, light permitting, above 1/1000th second. Compared to your non-IS 400/5.6, the IS is going to open up new worlds for you.

    I shoot my 500mm f/4L IS handheld about half the time. It's a function of the type of bird that I'm shooting. Raptors require a lot of chasing and shooting from the car, followed by walking up closer to a bird that's down on prey. It's taken me a year to develop the arm strength to hold the 500mm for long periods of time, but your 300mm will be much easier. (I was thinking of getting one, but I think I'll wait to see the 200-400mm f/4L plus internal 1.4x TC, to compare with the 300mm. I'm in no big hurry since I've got the 500mm).

    You'll need to shoot your 300mm to see for yourself. You've done enough research, now start taking pictures and making some mistakes and see where you end up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Kirksey View Post
    Roger:
    I have no doubt that the image will appear to shimmer due to whatever. But the question is: At what shutter speed is IS not necessary? I have just reread the Canon suggestions on IS for the new long lenses. On a tripod IS in the correct mode is effectively disabled if the shutter speed is fast enough. So my question was merely trying to understand a bird photographers need for IS when shooting from a stable platfrom with a static bird as a subject if the shutter speeds are > 1/1000s.
    Cecil,
    IS/VR in the lens is useful for other important things than just stabilizing the image for the picture. It stabilizes the image for you in the viewfinder, and for the AF system. With long focal length lenses, without IS/VR, a focus point can wander around the subject, especially a moving subject causing the focus to shift. Stabilizing the image reduces that focus wander and helps with better framing, especially on a tight composition. This is true of both moving and static subjects, regardless of shutter speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Kirksey View Post
    With my lowly 400mm f/5.6L on a tripod at f/5.6 I always try to shoot at least 1/400s and ISO 100-200. But with my new 1DIV I am likely to start shooting at 100-400 and keep the shutter speed up. I am still strieving for what I would call my perfect image. It is a combination of technique, equipment, light and a cooperative bird. Hard to get all four to come together. So my quest is to try to determine how you other bird shooters are getting such find shots at least with respect to equipment and shooting parameters . Thus my motivation for doing the data analysis.
    I think the main answer is knowing the subject and your equipment, rather than any magic setting beyond fast enough shutter speed to stop any action you desire to freeze. For example, understand the position of the sun, you and your subject for a particular location is of critical importance. In most (all?) cases there is a range of settings of aperture, shutter speed, ISO, focal length, and even sensor size (and pixel size) that will give a great image. Then knowing what the subject will do helps position you to get the best image. So it is more about the light, composition and subject first and foremost.

    Roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Stephens View Post
    The 300mm f/2.8L IS is a wonderful lens for handholding, even with the 2x TC. Even with the IS you'll want a shutter speed up above 1/500th second and, light permitting, above 1/1000th second. Compared to your non-IS 400/5.6, the IS is going to open up new worlds for you.

    I shoot my 500mm f/4L IS ....
    I have both the 500 f/4 and 300 f/2.8 IS lenses. Now that cameras with smaller pixels are out, I like the 300 f/2.8 more and more. I often now just take the 300 and leave the 500 at home. The 300 is so much easier to cary and to hand hold.

    Roger

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    BPN Member Don Lacy's Avatar
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    I am still strieving for what I would call my perfect image. It is a combination of technique, equipment, light and a cooperative bird. Hard to get all four to come together. So my quest is to try to determine how you other bird shooters are getting such find shots at least with respect to equipment and shooting parameters . Thus my motivation for doing the data analysis.
    Cecil,
    Each shooting situation will have a different perfect combination of settings depending on what the condition are and even more important what your vision is. While the EXIF data can be useful if you do not know the thought process the photographer used to determine those numbers and how their combination enables him to fulfill his vision you will be forever frustrated in the field.
    Don Lacy
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    https://500px.com/lacy

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    When I purchased my 600mm in 2006, it changed my "photographic life." I love the smooth backgrounds and sharp sharp images it created (which were also due to the fact that the 600 was so heavy I had to start using a tripod).

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