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Thread: Canon v III TCs

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    Default Canon v III TCs

    I just noticed that B&H is taking pre-orders. I don't think they were yesterday - or have I been blind?

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    Lifetime Member Doug Brown's Avatar
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    My 1.4x and 2x shipped from Hunt's last wee, but I haven't received them yet.
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    Mine arrived five days ago.

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    Don, others who have the new TCs:

    1) Can you stack a new 1.4x + new 2x TC?

    2) Can you stack old version II with new version III TCs?

    3) Have you tried new version III TCs on old 500 f.4 or 300 f/2.8, and if so, is the performance significantly better than version II TCs?

    ---Just curious.

    Roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Clark View Post
    Don, others who have the new TCs:

    1) Can you stack a new 1.4x + new 2x TC?

    2) Can you stack old version II with new version III TCs?

    3) Have you tried new version III TCs on old 500 f.4 or 300 f/2.8, and if so, is the performance significantly better than version II TCs?

    ---Just curious.

    Roger
    Also very interested myself, especially item 3.

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    I wonder if B&H has a secret line for important people. I've been on the "Notify me when in stock" list for a while. I noticed by chance yesterday that they were accepting pre-orders. This morning I got an email: "This item did not come in to stock yet, However, we are now accepting pre-orders and the item will be shipped when it comes in to stock." The order I placed yesterday says "backordered".

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    1) I only ordered the 2x III. Someone else will have to answer 1.4xIII + 2xIII. However see 2.
    Why? I've always been pleased with the existing 1.4xII on the 800/500/400DO/300 lenses. I never was satisfied with the 2xII and decided to order the 2xIII since it was optically different.

    2) NOTE: As all of us know, you can stack 2xII + 1.4XII, but only by putting the 1.4x between the 2x and camera body

    The new 2xIII does not stack with the 1.4II.

    The inner dimension on the camera end of the 2xIII has been narrowed so that you cannot easily put the end of the 1.4Xii into it. Perhaps some other brave soul will find they can shove the two together (and perhaps don't mind sacrificing the black coating inside the barrel of the 2xIII.

    Further, the other end of the new 2xIII (the one that sticks out into the back end of another lens) is the same diameter as the older 2xII and 1.4xII. So UNLESS the 1.4xIII has this end narrowed, it won't fit up into the rear of the new 2xIII -- but as in #1 someone else will have to provide the final answer to #1.

    3) Haven't been out to try - its been raining heavily until today. We will see.

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    Lifetime Member Jay Gould's Avatar
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    I am buying the 70-200 f/2.8 III and both TCs III.

    For now I am keeping my 300 f/2.8 I; there is a very significant difference in the price of the 300 I and II.

    Will the new TCs III work with the old 300 f/2.8 I?

    Assuming the newer TCs will work with the older 300 f/2.8, what are the advantages of the new TCs coupled with the new lenses that you lose when you use with the older lenses?

    These and a lot more "questions" are answered in Artie's post: http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...s-to-me-%29%29!
    Last edited by Jay Gould; 12-19-2010 at 03:35 PM.
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    Roger
    I just ran comparision tests of a static subject with 300/2.8,400DO,500,800 lenses with 2.0xIII and 2.0xII. This is with the 7D, I didn't have time for similar tests with the 1DmIV.

    The subject was a line of (tops only for 500-800) decidous (leaves gone) trees with lots of fine detail against a snow covered peak. Since it was taken across a cold wide retention pond, there isn't any shimmering heat effects with the air temperature at 38 degrees.

    Looking at the images in Lightroom, without sharpening (CR2s), I believe I can tell a difference in the sharpness of the two image sets. I haven't sharpened or modified the images. I'd like to try a blind test with some other people later today. Will have to post later when I have a chance - I have company right now.

    Regards
    Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Nelson View Post

    The new 2xIII does not stack with the 1.4II.
    I have also read this elsewhere. looks like the only way to stack will be via a 12mm extension tube.

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    Don I would assume, yes?, that the new 1.4 and 2.0 will stack together.
    Cheers, Jay

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Gould View Post
    Don I would assume, yes?, that the new 1.4 and 2.0 will stack together.
    I can't give a definitive answer based solely upon the TC2xIII.
    However, the the "Front" (next to lens) element on the TC1.4xII and TC2xII are identical (in diameter and curvature of lens), and the TC2xIII diameter and curvature are identical with the TC2xII.
    So I my guess is that the answer will be "No"
    We'll have to wait for another member who gets both III's, or sometime shortly after Dec 26 when my newly ordered TC1.4III ships.

    Best regards
    Don

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    Lifetime Member Jay Gould's Avatar
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    Gosh, now that would be a great loss.
    Cheers, Jay

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Gould View Post
    I am buying the 70-200 f/2.8 III ...
    Sorry Jay, no such lens exists...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Sorry Jay, no such lens exists...
    :o Senior moments, really an attempt to excuse sloppiness , are going to drive me bananas!

    Of course I meant the 70-200 II.

    Thanks for catching that; too late to edit.
    Cheers, Jay

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    To me, "next to the lens" is the back of the TC :)

    If there is no great difference in sharpness/IQ with static subjects then you can simply hand onto one 1.4XII and one 2X II for stacking purposes.
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    I guess we will have to wait until somebody has both the 1.4 and 2.0 III TCs to see if they stack.

    I have a feeling that most of us are going to have both old and new lenses, and we are not going to want to carry two sets: the III TCs which will "speak" to the new lenses, and the II TCs which will stack.
    Cheers, Jay

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    Jay, Please confirm that you understand that your Series III TCs will not be talking to your 70-200 IS L II....
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    Lifetime Member Jay Gould's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Jay, Please confirm that you understand that your Series III TCs will not be talking to your 70-200 IS L II....
    Thank you for asking; I am not understanding that!

    When I generically said "talking" I was referring to the information in your first post in the other TCs III thread:

    Image Quality

    There are two significant improvements related to image quality when using the new Series III Extenders with the new IS II super-telephoto lenses: Anomalous dispersion glass elements are used in both new extenders to effectively reduce chromatic aberration to the greatest possible extent. This results in higher resolution and contrast, especially when the new extenders are used with IS II super-telephoto lenses.

    Each Series III Extender features a newly developed microcomputer that increases AF precision when the extenders are used with an IS II super-telephoto lens. AF precision remains the same as the Series II Extenders when the Series III Extenders are used with earlier extender-compatible EF lenses.

    As a result of these improvements, users of the new IS II super-telephoto lenses can expect significantly improved image quality when using Series III Extenders.
    I am happy to have this clarified.

    I understood that the TCs III with the 70-200 II will "talk" in that the new microcomputer in the TC IIIs has a positive effect that is not present if you used TC IIs with the new 70-200 II.

    Isn't that what the quote says that you copied from Canon? To paraphrase:

    Users of the new 70-200 II lens can expect significantly improved IQ when using the TC IIIs.

    No?

    Artie, thanks for working this out with me; I am sure I am not the only member who needs this assistance. This is a $1,000 decision (Canon thingies cost more down under); if the new TC IIIs are not going to be beneficial to my 70-200 II and my 300 f/2.8 then there is no reason to purchase.
    Last edited by Jay Gould; 12-20-2010 at 08:48 PM.
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    You are quite confused. Please no paraphrasing; exact cut and pasted quotes only.

    Here is what is says, "Extenders EF 1.4X III and EF 2X III have been newly developed in conjunction with the new Series II Image Stabilizer EF super-telephoto lenses."

    As in the four new super-telephoto lenses, the 300 f/2.8L IS II, the 400 f/2.8L IS II, the 500mm f/4L IS II, and the 600mm f/4L IS II.

    As I have written from the start "The 70-200 f/2.8L IS II and the 800 f/5.6L IS lenses will not be able to take advantage of the computer technology in the Series III TCs..

    Any questions?
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    Lifetime Member Jay Gould's Avatar
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    No! :)

    Thanks for taking the time to clarify; I will keep the TCs II until such time as I purchase a "new super-telephoto lens"

    Thanks again; now I will decide whether to spend $2000 going from the old f/4 to the new f/2.8.
    Last edited by Jay Gould; 12-20-2010 at 10:22 PM.
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    Yes! :) Wish that I could say it ain't true, but....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Yes! :) Wish that I could say it ain't true, but....

    "but............." ??

    Say it; I have generally but not always relied upon your advice.
    Cheers, Jay

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    Jay. This was not a big stretch.... Wish that I could say that it ain't true but it is.... The new TC cannot talk to the 70-200 II.
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    From my understanding, there may be some (perhaps very minor) optical improvement when connecting the 1.4X III and the 2X III to an older style telephoto lens (and I think Don's earlier post in this thread hinted at that). Of course, as we know, that would be the limit of the improvement as the new extenders only "talk" to the four NEW lenses. In my case, I do not have any 2X yet so I wonder whether or not it is worth just going for the new version. I think probably it is, especially if getting one of the new lenses down the road is a possibility and the $200 difference in price is not prohibitive.

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    Lifetime Member Jay Gould's Avatar
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    Dan, bluntly, I am neither Morris, Brown, et al - the pros! - nor am I willing to settle for less than reasonable. For me, the 2.0 is indispensable; double the focal length for a reduced IQ that most of the time I can hardly see, and less acquisition speed is a good trade today.
    Cheers, Jay

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    Everyone should also read this other TC thread:

    http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...verters-to-me-))

    It has a link to a Canon article describing the new lenses and TCs. (Thank you Mr. Morris!) There is one brief statement at the end which is what Dan is talking about: "Anomalous dispersion glass elements are used in both new extenders to effectively reduce chromatic aberration to the greatest possible extent. This results in higher resolution and contrast, especially when the new extenders are used with IS II super-telephoto lenses."

    The question left open is how much resolution and contrast are improved for older lenses. It says there is some, but of course Canon prefers that folks replace their TCs and lenses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Busby View Post
    From my understanding, there may be some (perhaps very minor) optical improvement when connecting the 1.4X III and the 2X III to an older style telephoto lens (and I think Don's earlier post in this thread hinted at that). Of course, as we know, that would be the limit of the improvement as the new extenders only "talk" to the four NEW lenses. In my case, I do not have any 2X yet so I wonder whether or not it is worth just going for the new version. I think probably it is, especially if getting one of the new lenses down the road is a possibility and the $200 difference in price is not prohibitive.
    As seen by Dan's comments above it would seem that folks are not getting the fact that the communication between the new TCs and the new super-telephoto lenses will only benefit the accuracy of AI Servo AF. As I understand it the communication will in no way affect image quality with static subjects. Furthermore, the question is, will image quality "improvements" when the new TCs are used with the older lenses be seen by the human eye (or will folks need a microscope...)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Gould View Post
    Dan, bluntly, I am neither Morris, Brown, et al - the pros! - nor am I willing to settle for less than reasonable. For me, the 2.0 is indispensable; double the focal length for a reduced IQ that most of the time I can hardly see, and less acquisition speed is a good trade today.
    Jay, I have no clue as to what you are trying to say above...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lillich View Post
    Everyone should also read this other TC thread:

    http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...verters-to-me-))

    It has a link to a Canon article describing the new lenses and TCs. (Thank you Mr. Morris!) There is one brief statement at the end which is what Dan is talking about: "Anomalous dispersion glass elements are used in both new extenders to effectively reduce chromatic aberration to the greatest possible extent. This results in higher resolution and contrast, especially when the new extenders are used with IS II super-telephoto lenses."

    The question left open is how much resolution and contrast are improved for older lenses. It says there is some, but of course Canon prefers that folks replace their TCs and lenses.
    Hi Alan, YAW. Please call me artie. You are of course correct about the question left open.

    I have heard that each TCs is going for $499 from Hunts and B & H. Can anyone verify that? It's quite a price increase.

    The big remaining questions are what will the 500 II and the 600 II weigh and what will they cost. Right now I am planning on purchasing one of each and keeping the 800 at least for a while. I will be able to rent one of the two II lenses on IPTs.
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    Yes, B&H is asking $500, $499.99 to be exact. Do a search for on their web site for "canon extender iii". I don't know about others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Jay, I have no clue as to what you are trying to say above...

    Dan should get a 2.0!

    And, at my stage of development, I am willing to accept a bit of compromised IQ and acquisition speed that you and other professionals would not accept, for the extra focal length.

    BTW, thanks for saving me some bucks making sure I understood that there is no practical reason to upgrade my TCs since I do not have one of the big four.
    Last edited by Jay Gould; 12-21-2010 at 10:55 PM.
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    YAW but you continue to make incorrect assumptions as follows :):

    Whenever you use any TC the speed of initial focusing acquisition is slowed an image quality in terms of sharpness is reduced. I have been using both the 1.4X and 2X TCs for decades. Therefore this assumption: ".... that you and other professionals would not accept..." is obviously incorrect.

    YAW on the saving$, but the jury is still out as far as whether or not the new TCs will improve IQ with the older lenses. I am just suggesting that folks be cautious there until the facts are clear.

    Do check out the related thread here. You will see that lots of folks are jumping to conclusions.
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    Folks - I see that B&H and Adorama have stocks of both the 2X III and the 1.4X III as of today.

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    Lifetime Member Doug Brown's Avatar
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    Just got both of mine today. I hope to take some sample frames later this afternoon. I'll post impressions and samples later.
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    The 1.4x III arrived on Friday.

    Jay -- the 1.4x III does NOT mate with a 2x III.

    Its just too tight -- you might force it but it might not come apart.

    More then enough reason to keep the II"s

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    Publisher Arthur Morris's Avatar
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    That is amazing Don in light of the fact that they state that stacking the two TCs is "not recommended." That's a far cry from "is physically impossible."

    Thanks for sharing.
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    Lifetime Member Doug Brown's Avatar
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    Here's a sample 100% crop from the new 1.4x taken this afternoon in less than ideal conditions. I took this image straight from DPP to PS, cropped it, and saved it for web. To get to the proper file size I had to go down to 60 quality. I've been doing some controlled testing at home, but I'm not yet prepared to make any conclusions yet. The detail in this frame is excellent IMO. It may be possible to stack this with the 2x, but I wouldn't try it (I got the new 2x today also).

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    Canon 1D Mark IV, 500mm + 1.4x III, f/7.1, 1/250, ISO 800, manual exposure, tripod
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    A tripod yet... I am impressed.
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    Lifetime Member Doug Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    A tripod yet... I am impressed.
    It was a moment of weakness!!! :p Just trying to be scientific.
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    Understood and good plan!
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  42. #42
    Daniele Morasca
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    Thanks for the pics Doug.

    The quality seems to be really good, but how much better than the "old" mark II TC?

    Could you try to get the same subject with same lens and different TC (II vs III)?

    By the way impressive detail even at 60% compression.

    P.s. personally I would like to see a comparison on 2x TC III vs 2x TC II on a prime like the 300 2.8 or 400 2.8.
    Unfotunately the TC III are not arrived in EU yet. :_(

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    Lifetime Member Doug Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniele Morasca View Post
    P.s. personally I would like to see a comparison on 2x TC III vs 2x TC II on a prime like the 300 2.8 or 400 2.8.
    Unfotunately the TC III are not arrived in EU yet. :_(
    Check out the Deep Green Photography blog for $20 bill tests comparing the new and old 1.4x and 2x on my 500 f/4, both wide open and stopped down 1 stop. The results aren't up yet but will be sometime in the next week or so.
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    Publisher Arthur Morris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brown View Post
    Check out the Deep Green Photography blog for $20 bill tests comparing the new and old 1.4x and 2x on my 500 f/4, both wide open and stopped down 1 stop. The results aren't up yet but will be sometime in the next week or so.

    Just checked. Could not find any $20 bills. Strange that this thread has died with more folks having the Series III TCs....
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    The discussion didn't die -- it just dropped off here.
    To summarize where it moved to:

    One test was pointed to with a 200mmF2L IS lens (arguably not one that we would typcially use in bird photography) (using ISO1233):
    TCIII vs TCII results:
    1.4x: No noticable difference in sharpness or contrast but TCIII tests showed reduced barrel distortion and CA improvement so that only residual CA of lens was apparent. Yet CA can be removed with latest DPP.
    2.0x: III Slightly sharper than II. Greatly improved when wide open.

    Pointers were given to images of Doug Brown's $20 for 1.4x II vs III at two f stops and CA comparison with and without DPP CA cleanup.

    A Finnish tester showed comparisons of Kenko, Canon TCII and TCIII.

    No difference in AF performance between TCII and III when used on current lenses (not including to be released 300 II and 400 II)..no surprise here.

    Axel Hildebrandt noted the lock to the camera on his new 1.4X III was failing and he'd return it. No one else reported a similar failure.

    Google and you can find the discussion. Since no one has the capability(or maybe Roger could do this for us???) of generating the MTF curves, we'll have to wait until Canon publishes these (hopefully they'll do more than report TCIII's with 300 and 400 II lenses).

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    Publisher Arthur Morris's Avatar
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    The word on the $20 bill street is that there are as I predicted no appreciable differences in sharpness with the old and new TCs and the old lenses. And yes, no surprise at all on similar comments on AI Servo SF performance with old lenses assuming that that is what was inferred.

    The big questions for me remain:

    How heavy will the 500 and 600 f/4 IIs be?

    How good (if it is possible to determine) will the series III TC be with those two lenses.... TBD.
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