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    Default trying to learn flash photo

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    This is a Costa Hummingbird at a feeder. I wanted to have as little subject movement as possible, thus the feeder pic. I am trying to learn how to use my flash with hummer photography and also how to reduce noise.
    Canon 7D
    100-400
    1/100
    cloudy WB
    f7.1
    400 mm
    250 iso
    taken with a tripod
    It is a gray day here.
    This shot looks underexposed to me as well.
    I would love some suggestions on technique for using flash. Thanks so much for looking.
    Nancy

  2. #2
    Julie Kenward
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    Nancy, this is definitely underexposed...open up a levels adjustment and look at the histogram. See how there is barely any data on the right side until almost the midpoint? Then see how you have a high spike on the left side where the dark tones are? That means that the blacks are so black you're losing detail.

    I opened your image in ACR (Adobe Camera Raw) and readjusted the exposure sliders until the spikes on the histogram were in check and midtones were more full in the center. It appears you were a full stop too dark on your exposure. Can you tell me more about what your camera and flash settings were? And were you exposing for the blacks or for the whites?

    Two other things just to keep in mind...

    Your crop here leaves the tip of the bird's beak very close to the edge of the frame and, generally speaking, we prefer there be more room in front of the bird than behind them (so more image is needed on the right side here in order to feel better balanced.) I realize you were probably trying to crop out as much of the feeder as you could but wanted to make sure you understood that it was a bit tight there.

    Also, you have a good body position - he's turned towards you - but his head turn is looking back. If you can get an image of him with his head straight on or towards you even a bit that will always make for a stronger image than one where he's looking past the focal plane of the sensor. It gives the viewer more of a chance to make eye contact and connect emotionally with the bird.

    Here's a lightened version of the image. If you aren't shooting in RAW format you might think about doing so - it really gives you more opportunity to correct exposure in post-processing.

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    Hi;

    Jules info is very good. You could have made more room for the beak on that kind of feeder as the tube is quite a ways in from the edge.

    I extended the Right Side just to show the effect of the extra room, not the greatest example as there was not a lot of room to do a first class job.

    With one flash mounted on your camera without a special power extender you still need to set up the ISO and aperture so that your speed is around 1/500s. Don't how how your flash works, but I set mine to Fill flash TTL and start with -30. The HB itself will absorb lots of light, so if you can catch it backing off from the feeder (I use a single tube with one feeder port so I can direct the HB where I want it. Take down any other feeders I have up to also help in isolating the HB) After my first shot at -30 I use that as a starting point and adjust accordingly.

    Your exposure was actually very good other than being underexposed, and I think you are off to a fabulous start. Your Costa's color is right on with the throat brilliant.

    Hope this helps

    Gus

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    This is the Feeder I use, when photo appears. click to enlarge. I captured the Costa's early this morning with excellent light coming up over the mountain behind me.

    Gus
    Last edited by Gus Hallgren; 12-04-2010 at 06:26 PM.

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    Hi Nancy.

    Keep it up. I am curious to see how you make out.

    Dave

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    Nancy, Nice job with the sharpness and the lighter version really makes it stand out. I'm not a fan of the feeder and would encourage you to set up a perch. That way if you get a keeper it's a keeper!:)

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    Hi Nancy, Hats off to you for venturing into the flash element. I can't add another skill to my plate bc its overwhelming enough!!! But in due time. Beautiful colors and dreamy BG, keep practicing.

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    Nancy, as a starting point try this. Manualy set your camera to 1/250 ss, f8. Set your flash manualy to 1/60.

    I use this from 5-7 ft away with a 300mm, the shorter the duration of your flash the faster the effective shutter

    speed. There are alot of variables involved so experiment with your rig. I live in south Mississippi so I have to

    wait now until next april for the hummingbird return. They are my favorite bird subject.

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    Thank you for helping me. I realized after I shot I didn't write down the flash settings:o
    Using this flash reminds me of my first months of working with the dslr camera. I do not have a feel for what flash settings to start with.

    I'm also trying to check the sharpness of my lens. I am at the end of my warranty and am thinking of sending it in for calibration.

    I use Photoshop Elements for PP, but didn't do anything with this image. I was just practicing using the flash for exposure this time. I'm lucky to have hummers year round, but I need to learn how to use my equipment better before I can make great images.

    Learning to use the histogram is something I am also working on. Should the peaks be more toward the center of the histogram? When you say the tones were in check, what does that mean? I was aiming for the eye and to try to expose the purple, but there was some back lighting as well. I always aim for the eye, but often miss. I was shooting in the evaluative mode. I do not think I was changing the exposure compensation on the camera, but I'm not sure. I realize now that I need to write all that stuff to evaluate the usage of the flash with the camera. At the photo expo I bought A. Morris books and am working through those too which should help. But I'd love any suggestions.

    I see what you mean about the choice of crop. I often crop too tight and need to remember that in PP. I always shoot in RAW and hope to get CS5 and or Lightroom.
    I am a teacher, so I'd like to get them while I can still get my discount. However, I'm still trying to figure out Elements.

    Thanks so much for this great help. I will experiment more and write everything down. I like the lighter version. My goal is to get great hummer shots with plants, in the air and at our fountains. It is a labor of love, and a frustration at the same time.:)



    Quote Originally Posted by Julie Kenward View Post
    Nancy, this is definitely underexposed...open up a levels adjustment and look at the histogram. See how there is barely any data on the right side until almost the midpoint? Then see how you have a high spike on the left side where the dark tones are? That means that the blacks are so black you're losing detail.

    I opened your image in ACR (Adobe Camera Raw) and readjusted the exposure sliders until the spikes on the histogram were in check and midtones were more full in the center. It appears you were a full stop too dark on your exposure. Can you tell me more about what your camera and flash settings were? And were you exposing for the blacks or for the whites?

    Two other things just to keep in mind...

    Your crop here leaves the tip of the bird's beak very close to the edge of the frame and, generally speaking, we prefer there be more room in front of the bird than behind them (so more image is needed on the right side here in order to feel better balanced.) I realize you were probably trying to crop out as much of the feeder as you could but wanted to make sure you understood that it was a bit tight there.

    Also, you have a good body position - he's turned towards you - but his head turn is looking back. If you can get an image of him with his head straight on or towards you even a bit that will always make for a stronger image than one where he's looking past the focal plane of the sensor. It gives the viewer more of a chance to make eye contact and connect emotionally with the bird.

    Here's a lightened version of the image. If you aren't shooting in RAW format you might think about doing so - it really gives you more opportunity to correct exposure in post-processing.

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    Hi Gus,
    I have been enjoying your hummer shots. They are great.
    I was having a terrible time getting the shutter speed up. What AP do you use?
    We have another flash (my husbands) 430 flash which I want to try with this flash. Maybe I should use them both off camera. My back yard gets a lot of lightand sky backgrounds, because we are on a hill. I tried drapping a green blanket behind the feeders.
    I wasn't able to open you feeder link. I use a variety of Perky pet feeders, but have had to take some down due to the swarming of the bees. Right now I can only use the ones with the tiny holes. I have given the bees their own feeder in another section of the yard, so that may help.
    I'd love to hear more about your technique. Do you use a flash often? I have taken a lot of hummer pics without the flash, but the backlighting issue has ruined many of them, so I thought I'd learn to use flash. Especially on gloomier days. Thanks for your help. I like how you changed my image. :)
    nancy

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus Hallgren View Post
    Hi;

    Jules info is very good. You could have made more room for the beak on that kind of feeder as the tube is quite a ways in from the edge.

    I extended the Right Side just to show the effect of the extra room, not the greatest example as there was not a lot of room to do a first class job.

    With one flash mounted on your camera without a special power extender you still need to set up the ISO and aperture so that your speed is around 1/500s. Don't how how your flash works, but I set mine to Fill flash TTL and start with -30. The HB itself will absorb lots of light, so if you can catch it backing off from the feeder (I use a single tube with one feeder port so I can direct the HB where I want it. Take down any other feeders I have up to also help in isolating the HB) After my first shot at -30 I use that as a starting point and adjust accordingly.

    Your exposure was actually very good other than being underexposed, and I think you are off to a fabulous start. Your Costa's color is right on with the throat brilliant.

    Hope this helps

    Gus

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    Gus, can you tell me the name of your feeder. I have attached blossoms to my feeders which helps sometimes too.

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    Thanks Dave. It is going to be a process with lots of practice for sure.
    Nancy


    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Leroy View Post
    Hi Nancy.

    Keep it up. I am curious to see how you make out.

    Dave

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    Thanks Denise. I totally agree with you on the comp. I do not like feeder pics either and have used flowers and perches, but it is much harder to get them still. It seems whenever I am set up at one plant or perch, they trick me and go to another . They should know I'm the one who plants all the plants and sets out the feeders for them LOL

    I was also trying to check on my lens for calibration and sharpness. I've been frustrated with it sometimes, but that is most likely operator error. I've had it a few years and wonder if it needs calibration and cleaning. I can't shoot all the time due to work, but it still has had a lot of use. It also is a bit slow to AF for hummers. Once I learn a bit more about technique, I will be better at the behavior shots. I hope.
    :)

    Quote Originally Posted by denise ippolito View Post
    Nancy, Nice job with the sharpness and the lighter version really makes it stand out. I'm not a fan of the feeder and would encourage you to set up a perch. That way if you get a keeper it's a keeper!:)

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    Thanks for your kind words. I'm right there with you on the steep learning curve, but it sure is fun.
    Happy shooting.
    Nancy

    Quote Originally Posted by annmpacheco View Post
    Hi Nancy, Hats off to you for venturing into the flash element. I can't add another skill to my plate bc its overwhelming enough!!! But in due time. Beautiful colors and dreamy BG, keep practicing.

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    Thank you so much for the starter setting points. Do you have the 300 2.8? I was dreaming about that lens at the photo expo, along with the 500mm and a 70-200
    The 100-400 is a bit slow to AF. I will work with those settings and keep a log of how I change them. Thanks.
    Nancy

    Quote Originally Posted by jack williamson View Post
    Nancy, as a starting point try this. Manualy set your camera to 1/250 ss, f8. Set your flash manualy to 1/60.

    I use this from 5-7 ft away with a 300mm, the shorter the duration of your flash the faster the effective shutter

    speed. There are alot of variables involved so experiment with your rig. I live in south Mississippi so I have to

    wait now until next april for the hummingbird return. They are my favorite bird subject.

  16. #16
    Julie Kenward
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    Should the peaks be more toward the center of the histogram? When you say the tones were in check, what does that mean?
    Nancy, the histogram will be different each and every image but unless your image is all dark or all white, there should be a good balance of "data" all the way across - except for the spikes on the end. With this particular image I would expect that there would be some darks (because of the darks on the bird), some whites (because of the white on the feeder and bird), and the rest should be midtone data (meaning, if the image were in black and white, the BG and the other areas of the image would be middle gray - or close to it.)

    There is much information on how to understand and read a histogram both here in the Educational forums and on the web and the easiest way to learn to understand it is to convert one of your images to black and white and think of it in terms of lights, darks, and midtones. In your original image, there was very little light- to mid-tones because everything was underexposed (as evidenced by the spike of data on the left side of the histogram) so opening a levels adjustment and moving the midtone and highlight sliders in to the left will bring up those areas, pulling your exposure up with it. Remember, though, that if you blow the highlights or the blacks (either end) it's going to be a challenge to recover those in post-processing. Getting the exposure right in the field and verifying it on the histogram of your camera will help you to adjust your settings as you go along.

    Hope that helps a little!

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    Yes that does. Thank you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Julie Kenward View Post
    Nancy, the histogram will be different each and every image but unless your image is all dark or all white, there should be a good balance of "data" all the way across - except for the spikes on the end. With this particular image I would expect that there would be some darks (because of the darks on the bird), some whites (because of the white on the feeder and bird), and the rest should be midtone data (meaning, if the image were in black and white, the BG and the other areas of the image would be middle gray - or close to it.)

    There is much information on how to understand and read a histogram both here in the Educational forums and on the web and the easiest way to learn to understand it is to convert one of your images to black and white and think of it in terms of lights, darks, and midtones. In your original image, there was very little light- to mid-tones because everything was underexposed (as evidenced by the spike of data on the left side of the histogram) so opening a levels adjustment and moving the midtone and highlight sliders in to the left will bring up those areas, pulling your exposure up with it. Remember, though, that if you blow the highlights or the blacks (either end) it's going to be a challenge to recover those in post-processing. Getting the exposure right in the field and verifying it on the histogram of your camera will help you to adjust your settings as you go along.

    Hope that helps a little!

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    Nancy - beautiful bird, and in the lightened version can really see all the really lovely sharp details - everyone has given you great advice - setting your camera to manual - 1/250th sec like Jack said and then playing with the flashes to get the light you need - was a big help when my husband taught me to do that for flash/hummers.

    can't wait to see more pics - we only have Anna's (which we love) and sure would love to see some of the other ones that you and Gus have...

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    Hi Nancy. A few things about histograms, from my point of view of course. I am assuming you are shooting RAW. First of all take a test shot and look at the histogram. Ignore everything thing other than the far right side of the histogram. The right side is absolutely the most important; this is where clipped highlights occur. Theoretically these are whites that contain no digital information. However in the real world it is possible to "recover" detail from this area if you didn't get too carried away. Use exposure compensation or adjust shutter-speed, etc, to get the histogram where you want it by taking test shots, and your good to go. Delete your test shots.
    Overexposed images contain more digital information than underexposed images. Compare file sizes of some of your own over and underexposed images, and you'll see what I mean. More information translates into more detail.
    The goal, which is quided by the histogram, is to overexpose images to the point the clipped highlight warning appears (the blinkies). A few blinkies, but not a lot, is perfect IMO. As you get more experienced in this type of photography, you will get a feel on how much overexposure your camera can handle, and some cameras can handle quite a bit.(which means recovery is more likely)
    In post processing you will take an image which actually looks "washed out" and drop the exposure to normal. If there are still "red areas" which Adobe Camera Raw uses as a highlight clipping indicator, use the "recovery" slider to eliminate them.
    Note; since when shooting you have shifted the entire histogram to the right, you leave out much of the darker pixels. These are where digital noise exists to the greatest degree, and since you have left them out of the capture, you have far less noise! This means you can shoot at much higher ISOs than you did when you didn't "expose to the right"! regards~Bill

    One more thing; you are only worried about the exposure being correct for your subject. If the background is too dark or light you have no choice but to deal with it is post-processing. Because the background will effect the histogram, and you aren't exposing for it, it is one reason the actual histogram graph is not very useful.
    Last edited by WIlliam Maroldo; 12-06-2010 at 12:00 AM.

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    Thanks Pat. I hope to take more this week end. The weather has been very gray here though..
    Quote Originally Posted by pat lillich View Post
    Nancy - beautiful bird, and in the lightened version can really see all the really lovely sharp details - everyone has given you great advice - setting your camera to manual - 1/250th sec like Jack said and then playing with the flashes to get the light you need - was a big help when my husband taught me to do that for flash/hummers.

    can't wait to see more pics - we only have Anna's (which we love) and sure would love to see some of the other ones that you and Gus have...

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    Bill, your explanation was very helpful. I have a terrible time with noise. Now here I'm going to show my inexperience. I thought if the image was a bit overexposed you didn't have enough information to work with. It sounds like just the opposite. If I am understanding you, if I have some clipping with a slight overexposure, I can use the recovery tool. I have used the fill light tool for underexposed some as well.
    I am going to do more test shots this week end. Work keeps me tied up until dark:)
    Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by WIlliam Maroldo View Post
    Hi Nancy. A few things about histograms, from my point of view of course. I am assuming you are shooting RAW. First of all take a test shot and look at the histogram. Ignore everything thing other than the far right side of the histogram. The right side is absolutely the most important; this is where clipped highlights occur. Theoretically these are whites that contain no digital information. However in the real world it is possible to "recover" detail from this area if you didn't get too carried away. Use exposure compensation or adjust shutter-speed, etc, to get the histogram where you want it by taking test shots, and your good to go. Delete your test shots.
    Overexposed images contain more digital information than underexposed images. Compare file sizes of some of your own over and underexposed images, and you'll see what I mean. More information translates into more detail.
    The goal, which is quided by the histogram, is to overexpose images to the point the clipped highlight warning appears (the blinkies). A few blinkies, but not a lot, is perfect IMO. As you get more experienced in this type of photography, you will get a feel on how much overexposure your camera can handle, and some cameras can handle quite a bit.(which means recovery is more likely)
    In post processing you will take an image which actually looks "washed out" and drop the exposure to normal. If there are still "red areas" which Adobe Camera Raw uses as a highlight clipping indicator, use the "recovery" slider to eliminate them.
    Note; since when shooting you have shifted the entire histogram to the right, you leave out much of the darker pixels. These are where digital noise exists to the greatest degree, and since you have left them out of the capture, you have far less noise! This means you can shoot at much higher ISOs than you did when you didn't "expose to the right"! regards~Bill

    One more thing; you are only worried about the exposure being correct for your subject. If the background is too dark or light you have no choice but to deal with it is post-processing. Because the background will effect the histogram, and you aren't exposing for it, it is one reason the actual histogram graph is not very useful.

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    Good morning Nancy, The number one thing to remember is not to get frustrated. Probably 95% of my

    attempts get deleted. Ansel Adams once said to the effect that he shot all year for three or four great

    photographs. With our equipment now we can shoot, shoot, shoot. I am still learning this stuff too but I do so

    enjoy it. I have Nikon equipment, 70-300 4.5-5.6, and in low light that lens focuses slow and I miss a lot of

    shots. I am on the verge of having enough for a 400 2.8, not the best length for birds but I need it for general

    nature and sports. I hope you have a great day.

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