In Flight AND OPEN FOR A DISCUSSION.

VinceRossi · 10-04-2010, 12:01 PM

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**Joel Eade** · 10-04-2010, 02:16 PM

Hi Vince,

I don't thnk you're being negative or causing any trouble, and I agree with some of your points. Not everyone has access to pro gear but you CAN make good images anyway and posting images, reading critiques and tutorials on this site is a great way to get you there! Just keep shooting and studying, I am far from a pro but my images are immensely better over the last year because of this forum. The critiqiue process is not a negative one, only suggestions to help you improve.

With regards to this particular image: I like the position of the bird in the frame pretty well, the pose is good and I think the head angle is OK given the position of the bird's body. The image is suffering a loss of detail, it could be because of several things. Here are some of my ideas not intended to be negative but only things I think might improve things for you.

1. The shutter speed is a little slow for bird's in flight (most folks are using 1/1250 and up)
2. I also wonder if this is a big crop because the background seems somewhat noisy.
3. Do you think the autofocus locked on the bird's feet rather than the body and you didn't get a sharp image as a result?
4. Your 70-300mm lens might not focus as quickly with a 1.4TC and the image quality might not be as good, I don't know this lens.
5. IMHO there is nothing wrong with using shutter priority or aperture priority but for flight images with a light colored subject going across a dark or variable background it is very difficult for the camera to get the right exposure, that is why manual mode is used so often. Your image does look a little dark, I have not looked at the histogram but if it was underexposed that would be another potential reason for detail loss.

In manual mode you can meter off the subject with the central sensor only and don't be afraid to push the iso up to get a fast shutter speed. Take time to check the histogram to make sure you're not blowing out the highlights but getting some data in the box farthest to the right.

Please don't get frustrated and keep going.....we are all at different points in the learning process and there are plenty of folks far beyond my abilities who are helping us out here every day.

Joel

**Joel Eade** · 10-04-2010, 03:24 PM

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**Joel Eade** · 10-04-2010, 03:25 PM

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**Myer Bornstein** · 10-04-2010, 03:27 PM

Joelyou did not post your makeover it be nice to see it.

**Maureen Allen** · 10-04-2010, 04:00 PM

Vince, I read your post a couple of times. I understand the points you're making. When I first signed up for this site, I thought to myself "I'll never post a photo of mine there.". But I eventually did.

I want my the quality of my photo's to improve. They need it :D

When I commented on your last post, I sat there and really thought about what could be done differently to improve the shot. That will help me the next time I go out looking for egrets. My feeble attempt at that critique was certainly not meant to be harsh or judgmental, just a lesson for me on what to do in your situation. I have more pictures of egrets with blown highlights, half wings, prominent backsides and ridiculous backgrounds than I can count. I try to learn from them, but it's not really second nature to me at this point. By coming here, I can benefit from the knowledge of people whose work I admire. Maybe I'll get there, but maybe I'll just have fun trying. As long as I continue to see improvement in what I'm doing, I'll be happy.

I don't view this forum as a place where people are saying "ok, it's not perfect so yuck" but rather a place of gentle mentoring. I don't want everyone to say "oh, nice shot" when many of mine are not and I know it. The fact is, you're trying to improve your work just like the rest of us and, at least for me, coming here is a big step in that direction. The critiques are interesting and enlightening. Of course there are always issues you can't control, but maybe there are ways to avoid situations on your next time out. In one of my posts, someone graciously pointed out that I included some "poo" behind the bird. I laughed all evening about that - mostly at myself for not seeing it. And I can tell you for certain that the next time I go to photograph an ibis, I'll make sure he's not standing in a bit of something awful he made.

The photo you posted of the snowy egret is a lovely pose. Just getting him in focus is a trick. Those guys move quickly and are a little difficult to predict. Congratulate yourself on how well you did, take heart in Joel's generosity in providing suggestions to improve it and see if next time it can be even better.

Best regards!

VinceRossi · 10-04-2010, 04:32 PM

thanks for the come backs with info. Joel your comments are well taken and I like your repost. Yes it was a large crop. The reason I lost the detail was because I had to get rid of the noise in Topaz Deniose. Yes I think the TC is slowing down the focus and it was kind of hard getting him inflight.and hand held.

I hope more people will get involved with this post.

VinceRossi · 10-04-2010, 04:36 PM

Joel I meant to comment on your Photoshop adjustments. I am not that good with masking----some sort of mental block with using it. I wish I could get over it. Also I never can figure out what part of the histogram is for part of the picture. Thanks again.

Lance Peters · 10-04-2010, 06:19 PM

Hi Vince - First want to say this is a very good thread - hopefully lots will read it even if they dont comment.

Here are my thoughts.... and these are NOT JUST FOR VINCE.

1. Any critique given is NEVER EVER a personal attack - once you realize that any advice offered is a learning opportunity and can move beyond thinking it is any sort of personal thing - your skill levels will rapidly improve. I can remember when I first started posting here and posted a Image I was proud of - Artie was kind enough to comment on it and pointed out some problems with it that I had not even considered - for the first moment I was disappointed - then I realized - One of the finest Nature photographers has just offered you advice on how to improve your images - How Great is that - try getting that sort of help in any other photography discipline - yeh you will get it and you will pay thousands of dollars for the privilege of attending a seminar with 20-30 other people.

2. It is often said the hardest thing is - To know when NOT to push the shutter button. Following a few simple guidelines (Like sun at your back) increase your chances of creating a pleasing image. These are the basics understanding them so that you know why they are guidelines will improve your images - Like "Sun at your back" Why - so there is even illumination on the subject.

3. Keeper rates - You see fantastic images posted here - but dont forget - A LOT MORE IMAGES WERE TAKEN for every one you see posted, and as your skill level improves you become more choosy with what you keep. I will often post a less than perfect image here simple for that reason. My keeper rate might be 2-10 if I am lucky.

4. Equipment - whilst I agree with Vince to a certain degree - I also dis-agreee - Great Images can be created with virtually any camera - comes down to knowing the strengths and weakness's of your equipment and maximizing your opportunities - If you dont have a super telephoto lens - try to shoot somewhere were you can get closer to the birds - When traveling I often find Botanical gardens good - Birds are tamer and allow close approach so a super tele becomes less of a need.

5. Sometimes there is nothing you can do about a less than ideal BG - I am not a big fan of replacing entire backgrounds in Photoshop and strive to get the image in camera - sometimes the BG is what it is - and I will usually say that when I post.

6. All that matters at the end of the day is ------------------------ "THAT you like the image and you had fun making it"

7.BIF can be challenging and the KEEPER RATE IS LOWER!!

Just my thoughts off the top of my head!

p.s. Nice explanations and comments by Joel!!

**Doug Brown** · 10-04-2010, 06:31 PM

I had all sorts of good things to say until I read Joel's comments. Now all I can add is ditto what he said. :) But I will try to elaborate a little. There is no question that having the right equipment helps, especially for BIF (birds in flight). The AF on a 70-300 is relatively slow to begin with, but when you add a TC you pay a big penalty in the AF performance department. If you can afford it, a 400mm f/5.6 lens is an excellent 'budget' lens for bird photography. It's relatively small and light, and both AF speed and sharpness are awesome.

My opinion about critiquing differs from yours. We obviously have essentially no control over our subjects as you point out. But we do have control over which images we present to others. I specialize in flight shots and I have many more frames with the wrong head angles, bad wing positions, and not-quite-there sharpness. But you won't see me posting those images for critique. If I get 5 out of 100 real keepers, I'm a happy camper. I do spend hours and even days in the field trying to get the perfect frame of a given avian subject. Not everyone is that dedicated, but it does take time to get some good frames. Just because we don't have control over our subjects doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for visually pleasing images. Fashion photographers have control over their subjects but you don't see images in magazines with the model's eyes closed or his/her head pointed away from the camera (unless it's by design).

Now onto your photo. This image was shot at 135mm; no real need for a TC at that focal length when you've got 300mm at your disposal using just the bare lens. Image quality will be better and AF will be faster. You do mention that this was a significant crop; don't forget to use your zoom to put more pixels on your subject. Your shutter speed is definitely slow for flight; you'll have more success with flight shots in better light. The bird does look dark as presented. Getting a proper exposure in constant light with a consistent background shouldn't be that hard in one of the priority modes. Just take some scout frames of your subject against the background you want and adjust your exposure. As long as the light stays constant you should be good to go. But remember that things get more complicated if you start out taking pictures of the bird against a bright sky background, and then the bird moves down to a dark water background. You'll need to adjust your exposure at that point. This is why some folks (myself included) prefer manual exposure for flight; I dial in the proper exposure for the bird and as long as the light is constant, I don't care what background the bird flies in front of. The bird will always be properly exposed.

What draws a lot of folks to bird photography is the challenge of mastering their gear, the challenge of getting an incredible image of a difficult subject, and the challenge of learning how to post process to take that image to the next level. If it was easy, people would get bored quickly.

Julie Kenward · 10-04-2010, 07:01 PM

Vince, you've received lots of good remarks here about your image so let me talk about the other points you mentioned.

First, Lance is right - you can't take a critique personally...EVER. I remember I posted a photo back when I first joined and nobody saw my point of view. I emailed my father and said, "What's up with that? Nobody liked it!" My father remarked that 1) it is always my opinion that matters most and 2) You can't sell what others don't like. ;) So now I balance between what I like and what others "see" - and I've become a much better photographer because of critiquing. It should open your mind to how others see your work and then, at the end of the day, you do what is right for you to do regarding any image you create.

Another key lesson for anyone in photography is that it's not the price of the gear that makes you a better photographer but...having the gear match the discipline you're hoping to pursue IS important. It's very hard to take good bird photographs with less than a 400mm lens. It's also hard to take a good macro image without a macro lens and it's not aways easy to take a good landscape without a wide angle lens.

Figuring out what you want to do and then finding a way to buy the gear you need to do that is a key component. My longest lens was a 70-200mm until last year so my bird photography was done in my backyard beneath my birdfeeders. I adapted what I owned to what I wanted to do. Now I own a 400mm and that is still too short in many cases but at least now I can get decent images at a lake or pond setting without cropping 70% of the image onto the floor. Find the type of photography that you're passionate about and then do what you need to do to get the gear. So far I've sold a life insurance policy I wasn't using and a few other personal items as well as shoot portraits that I don't really enjoy - but the money from that gets me the gear to what I do love.

The last thing I'd say is don't compare apples to oranges. Look at your images from six months or a year ago, not to what everyone else is doing. Are you getting better? Are the images stronger right out of the camera? Are you doing less and less in post-processing? Are you finding the places that give you better light...better angles? Then that's what it's all about! I can look back over the three years that I've been shooting and I can't believe how much I've grown as a photographer - and it's only because I jumped in, posted the images, waited for a response, thought about what they said, took that information back into the field, tried it again...you get the picture. ;) Practice, practice, practice! And yes lots of time with no images happens. It's never wasted, though. It's always a learning experience of what not to do next time.

Best wishes to you. Don't get discouraged. Keep firing away but do so with what you have to work with and make the most of that!

**Joel Eade** · 10-04-2010, 08:10 PM

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**Doug Brown** · 10-04-2010, 08:23 PM

Awesome Joel!

**Desmond Chan** · 10-04-2010, 08:46 PM

Another newbie here, but...

Originally Posted by VinceRossi

All I am saying is having the better equipment does help.

OK. My last post was taken with a micro 105 lens.

What I don't understand is how the statements are made for Head angle, wing position, rule of thirds etc.

If you're wondering why people talk about those things, I'd say it's because by experiences - not necessary yours or mine - many have discovered that when the bird is in certain pose, it looks better, and when the bird is situated around certain spots in the photo, the overall composition of the photograph looks better.

I often feel that the critigues are given as though we were using a studio and we are POSING the birds. I know the intent what I don't understand is the way the critigues are offered. I feel at times that critiques are given forgetting what situation we are in ----without control----of the subject.

No, no. It may sound that way but, you can see them as suggestions on what you could watch out and try next time. Having said that, quite a few bird photos are photographed under a set up situation. Some people use recording and bait to lure the birds. I suppose to a certain degree you can say the photographer does have some influence on the movement of the bird and could then move to a better spot to take the shot if required. For the rest of the mortals like us, it's luck.

Are we supposed to wait hours and hours for the right picture

Maybe not but, unfortunately, sometimes if you want to get the shot, the answer is yes.

to get the head angle right and get the catch light in the eye.

Sometimes it's luck and sometimes, you pay attention to where the bird is heading and only take the shots when it's flying either directly across in front of you or heading more towards your way. As for catch light, it depends on the direction of where the light is coming from and then, hopefully, the bird is not turning the head the other way :)

I think offering your best effort is where we should be and have some way of receiving critiques in a less severe way.

I think here they would like to help you to take the best photograph you can. And good photographs usually do seem to have some characteristics that makes them stand out from the rest.

I'd say photograph for yourself first. You do not need to have every single photograph of yours to be some award winning photograph. As mentioned, many of the photographs taken are not posted. But if you want to see if your photographs meet certain standards, post them. You may like your improvement :)

**John Chardine** · 10-04-2010, 09:34 PM

Not at all Vince. Good discussion is what BPN is all about! I've not read the posts above on purpose (I'll go read them after) so I apologise if I repeat what others have said.

I'll respond to what you said about critiques "given as though we were using a studio and we are POSING the birds". One thing you can say about BPNers is that they are field people. They are out in all conditions at all times of day, doing what they love to do. They know how difficult it is to make good images of wildlife. BPNers are not couch wildlife photographers who might indeed assume you are working in a studio and posing birds.

So, given this you can see and appreciate image critiques in a different light. What honest but gentle critiques at BPN do is push you to new personal skill levels. This can happen in jumps which you notice ("Eureka moments"), or subtly over time. And just when you think you have "arrived" you realise there is still a long way to go to excellence, and then you realise that in fact it's a never-ending journey with no final destination. At some point along this journey you might look back and find it hard to believe how far you have come. By the same token, when you look forward and consider some of the world class images that are posted here, it can seem a long and impossible road ahead. "How was that done?", "That's impossible!", "That bird must have been nailed to the perch!", "Backgrounds just don't look that good in nature!". All these thoughts, and then some, go through your head. But if you are a life-long learner, you will gradually build the skills necessary to make images that you once thought "impossible". The journey to your personal goals should be fun and engaging, but it probably won't be easy all of the time.

Think of BPN as a large group of people that nudges you towards excellence, and just when you are content, you get another nudge, and another, and another ..............!

"Nothing worth doing is easy".

**John Chardine** · 10-05-2010, 09:32 AM

Joel- I have to say how much I like the piece of art you created. Although I am not a big fan of what Fracalius does (and that's not because it doesn't run on a Mac!), in this case the result is outstanding! There is a very "stained glass" look about it.

**Michael Gerald-Yamasaki** · 10-05-2010, 11:27 AM

Vince,

Greetings. A couple of comments

Originally Posted by VinceRossi

I feel at times that critiques are given forgetting what situation we are in ----without control----of the subject. Are we supposed to wait hours and hours for the right picture to get the head angle right and get the catch light in the eye. I think offering your best effort is where we should be and have some way of receiving critiques in a less severe way.

When I first found this site I used to chuckle about the HA comments. Yeah, right, as if. Oh, Mr. Birdie could you look over this way as you fly by (toward me, of course). It hadn't occurred to me then that HA was important, so I wasn't looking for the opportunity or working for the opportunity to get the right HA.

So now at least I know when I'm taking a shot with a bad HA ;), and the bright noontime sun overhead or in front of me, and the bird's tiny in my view finder, and there's that gas truck in the bg, and the ground is littered with trash and bird droppings, and I'm at f/2.8 ISO 100 for bif on an overcast day... And I don't need to post the shot because I already know that:

the shadows on the head hide the eye,
harsh light makes dark shadows across the subject,
top light emphasizes the crown and shoulders, detracts from the eye and head shadow falls across the breast
bg clean up is tedious work and how do you hide a gas truck?
upping ISO would give me a faster ss to freeze motion and capture detail better
better dof would have gotten more in focus than the wing that the AF was lucky to catch... ;)

And maybe next time I'll go out in better light, take some test shots to figure out the best settings to get the ss and dof and noise characteristics (ISO) for the subject, approach the subject with the sun behind me, evaluate the subject's behavior for likely flight path, pre-visualize the bg, etc... so I can post the image to find out what else I can work on :)

As far as equipment goes... how's that song go? Love the one your with...

Cheers,

-Michael-

**Cheryl Flory** · 10-06-2010, 06:43 PM

Wow! You gotta love ETL forum!
This thread is awesome!
so much offered!
so much to learn!

no wonder this forum is my web home page. :)

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