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Thread: Is this site dying out or are my stats wrong?

  1. #51
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    James-
    Hard to say for sure, because (checking right now) I can't find a link that explains what is available to members and what is not. I know of one example that I mentioned before: I can't post an item for sale. That one doesn't make sense to me, since it seems like having a robust marketplace with more items to sell would actually benefit all your members too, especially given the obvious eBay competition. So that's one.

    Another I remember is that there is a limitation on how you can post images, but that one was easy to work around using inline linking. I understand that's to save on hosting costs, and that makes sense to me to charge someone if they want to host here as opposed to linking elsewhere.

    I seem to recall in the past that I've run into issues limiting the number of private messages I can send or receive and limitations on posting images, but I haven't run into any restrictions lately. Partly that's because I stopped posting images for the most part. I am not a professional, so I tend to do all my photo stuff in batches of time. While I understand the posting restrictions, the fact is that it would easier for people like me to be able to post several at once as opposed to one a day in any forum.

    At the end of the day, it's a business decision for Art and the people who run the forum, and I respect their right to run it however they want. As I said a couple of times before, the membership fee actually did deter me from signing up initially. It was only the second time I came back and realized that the fee only prevented certain features that I signed up. So, perhaps the issue is that the membership benefits aren't well-explained. Maybe if you make clearer that the forum is free but membership has extra benefits? Just thinking out loud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Mills View Post
    Hi Chris, first off if you sell on Ebay there is a fee attached.(paypal also) Here the sale is between buyer and seller with no fee attached. It can't be cheaper.
    Secondly,if you spend thousands of dollars on camera equiptment and don't see value in a small fee(under $30 per year) that gives you an immense amount of personal info and much much more there isn't more to be said.
    Remember, all sites aren't created equal....
    Dave, you continue to miss my point, so I won't reiterate; you can re-read if you want.
    Last edited by Chris Sloan; 09-22-2010 at 02:41 PM.

  3. #53
    BPN Member Chris Ober's Avatar
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    Ebay selling fee examples:
    1) Opening bidding at $1 with a $900 reserve price. IF it sold for $1000 and had a buy it now price set for $1200 the fees ebay will soak you for are $64.25.
    2) Opening bidding at $1 with no reserve or buy-it-now, IF it sold for $1000 the fees ebay will soak you for are $50.25.

    Yeah, Ebay is a WHOLE lot cheaper :)

    http://www.rolbe.com/ebay.htm
    Last edited by Chris Ober; 09-22-2010 at 02:39 PM.
    Chris


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    Chris,
    Ask around, I'm a very calm guy who is "slow to anger" but you are making my neck throb!

    You said:
    "Again, I'm not being critical of anything; I enjoy the site and am still able to derive some value from it at the non-paying level." italics by James

    You just said that what everyone here who tries to help photographers improve their art are worthless.
    That statement is a slap in the face to every true participant, free or paid on this site.

    I'm sorry you feel that way.
    Last edited by James Shadle; 09-22-2010 at 02:59 PM.

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    No one seems to be understanding what I'm saying, and I'm clearly not doing a good job of communicating it, so I'll summarize it this way. First, James, I neither said nor implied anything of the sort regarding anyone being worthless. Frankly, I think that's a grossly unfair way to characterize what I said in any context, but I certainly apologize if that was the way it came across.

    This thread started with a concern that this site might be declining in usage. I'm simply offering one possibility to consider about why that might be occurring, and I'm offering a context for that opinion. I'm not saying the site isn't valuable. It is, or I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't be spending this time on this thread. I'm just saying that a fee-based membership model for some of the features of this site is unusual, and that might be part of the issue. That's all I'm saying; nothing more, nothing less, and certainly nothing critical of the choice to use that model.

  6. #56
    Avian Moderator Randy Stout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Sloan View Post
    You misunderstand what I am saying. I am not complaining, I'm simply saying that I do not see enough value to become a paying member. That's not a complaint, it's just a statement of my opinion, backed up by the fact that I'm not as of yet a paying member. As I noted, there are tens of thousands of forums like this around the web, the overwhelming majority of which are free, and many of them also have moderators who volunteer their time. In that context, charging a fee simply for access to a forum like this, however valuable, will be perceived as unusual by a potential new member. So, while I understand your perspective on the business model, that doesn't make it any less unusual relative to what most internet users would be familiar with.

    To give you a specific example, non-members are not permitted to post items for sale. I had a couple of nice lenses that I wanted to sell recently and was told no, I can't post unless I subscribe. So, I sold them on eBay. It was cheaper and probably fetched me a better purchase price.

    Again, I'm not being critical of anything; I enjoy the site and am still able to derive some value from it at the non-paying level. I'm simply offering an opinion that the membership fee may be hindering the growth of the site.

    (Also, just by way of background, I'm a startup lawyer and I work with online businesses for a living, so I also have some business experience for offering that opinion.)
    Chris:

    Having spent a significant amount of time and money to learn how to do bird photography, BPN has to be the best investment I ever made to improve my skills. The ROI has been tremendous.
    Obviously as a moderator, I am biased, but it only took me about two visits when I started visiting the site to realize that the information and learning possibilities here were well worth the investment.
    We all have differences in "perceived value". To me, information/education has a very high value. If I had to skip a couple of meals to pay for the membership, I would consider that a worthwhile investment! Time is limited for me, so I want the highest signal/ratio I can find, and BPN clearly is the leader there. (I like your choice of terms, since I am an amateur radio operator as well)

    I do very much value your input!

    Cheers

    Randy

    I am sorry that we haven't shown you enough value to merit the investment. Rest assured, we will keep working to make the site better.

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    Randy-
    Thanks. I do think the way the membership fee is explained or the forum is characterized may be something that could be easily fixed. Is there a link somewhere that explains clearly what is free and what is only available to members? I couldn't find one a few minutes ago, but I could have easily missed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Sloan View Post
    You misunderstand what I am saying. I am not complaining, I'm simply saying that I do not see enough value to become a paying member. That's not a complaint, it's just a statement of my opinion, backed up by the fact that I'm not as of yet a paying member. As I noted, there are tens of thousands of forums like this around the web, the overwhelming majority of which are free, and many of them also have moderators who volunteer their time. In that context, charging a fee simply for access to a forum like this, however valuable, will be perceived as unusual by a potential new member. So, while I understand your perspective on the business model, that doesn't make it any less unusual relative to what most internet users would be familiar with.
    Chris, I invite you to post links to all of the nature photography sites that both offer critiques of your images and host your images for free. To my knowledge, there are none.

    An annual membership at one of our competing sites is $40 (lowered from $50 in response to our opening here), and $49. Both of those are places where your images will receive many "Big Congrats" and "Great Image" comments.

    So from where I sit you comment is a totally baseless complaint. And your comment about perceived value leaves me scratching my head.
    BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.

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    I give up. I can't say enough that I'm not complaining. I'm trying to offer some constructive thoughts on how to address the perceived issue, and I"m failing miserably. No one seems to think the issue I'm raising is a concern, so let's just drop it.

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    I do not want to directly comment on the side discussions going here, but it is actually the passion being shown here by people that makes this forum so rewarding and such fun. In fact based on this thread alone I now subscribed as a full member! :) Well actually it is because I hope to have much more time to participate and get out and take pictures following a terribly hectic year, but also because of the general passion as well.

    Concerning critiques and assumed derogatory comments, perhaps BPN should introduce a sliding scale of sensitivity to critique that displays by member's posts ;). I personally, while not posting a great deal this last year, have tried to keep up with other posts, and in that time have seen nothing that I would deem derogatory, offensive or otherwise. This is a critique forum after-all, so not all posts will be filled with jovial appraisal. Perhaps this is just me, but a little verbal jousting and tongue-in-cheek homour, mixed with excellent images, advice and critiques is a perfect mix.

  11. #61
    BPN Member Chris Ober's Avatar
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    There was a detailed list that was inadvertently misplaced sometime during the upgrade. Thanks for pointing that bit out. I'll add it to the list of things that need to be fixed still :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Sloan View Post
    Randy-
    Thanks. I do think the way the membership fee is explained or the forum is characterized may be something that could be easily fixed. Is there a link somewhere that explains clearly what is free and what is only available to members? I couldn't find one a few minutes ago, but I could have easily missed it.
    Chris


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    Chris,
    I do agree that I need to make the differences between membership and being a participant more obvious.

    I will work on consolidating the information that has evolved over the last 2.5 years into one up front / can't miss location.

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    BPN Member Chris Ober's Avatar
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    I like this guy already....give the man a raise! James, you can teach it alongside the Sliding Shadle Shiny Scale. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben_Sadd View Post
    Concerning critiques and assumed derogatory comments, perhaps BPN should introduce a sliding scale of sensitivity to critique that displays by member's posts ;).
    Chris


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Chris, I invite you to post links to all of the nature photography sites that both offer critiques of your images and host your images for free. To my knowledge, there are none.
    Art, since you asked me in your response to my private message to respond to this, I will respond to this. You may well be correct that there are no such sites, but I never said that there were and it isn't germaine to my point. My point was that there are lots and lots of sites like this offering content in the broad sense (i.e. not limited to photography) that are entirely free, and so a fee-based site may be a deterrent for a new member who is used to that in the general sense. The way the thread has evolved, I think the problem is simply a (current) lack of clear info on the benefits of membership vs. being a participant.

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    Chris, You stated clearly that there are lots of sites like this that are free. Period. As I said, there are not. In fact, there are no sites anywhere nearly as good as this for any amount of money.
    BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Chris, You stated clearly that there are lots of sites like this that are free. Period. As I said, there are not. In fact, there are no sites anywhere nearly as good as this for any amount of money.
    Yes, I did. And by "this" I was referring to online member/forum content sites in the broad sense, not nature photography sites in the specific sense, as I noted in my previous post. I have no doubt that you are correct about sites like this one in the specific sense, and that's why I'm here and not elsewhere; it's a great site. I was simply making a comment about the business model and how it might impact a prospective member in the absence of better clarification, nothing more and nothing less.

    This whole thread is a problem with communicating in writing and not in person. If we were having this conversation over beer, nuance and tone of voice would have eliminated any of these miscommunications and I would have been able to communicate my comment more clearly.

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    I have never posted anything on this site. I have been watching and learning for a few months now. I will say this, I have seen some excellent photography and learned a great deal from the people who take the time to critique. To the people who take their time to respond and to the people who run this site, thank you. I will begin posting my own images soon and I will become a paying member. Thank you for your time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben_Sadd View Post
    Concerning critiques and assumed derogatory comments, perhaps BPN should introduce a sliding scale of sensitivity to critique that displays by member's posts ;).
    In a effort to try to lighten the mood I present the following:

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    Quote Originally Posted by jack williamson View Post
    I will say this, I have seen some excellent photography and learned a great deal from the people who take the time to critique. To the people who take their time to respond and to the people who run this site, thank you.
    Here here!

  20. #70
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    Hey Jack and Chris......Thanks!!! This is what keeps me going as a mod!
    Mike......too funny!!! I do wonder how many people will chose red?;)

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    Roman, if it had purple for "crying at my own inability to communicate effectively", I would choose that one. ;)

  22. #72
    Christopher C.M. Cooke
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    I decided to leave this up for a while to allow many others to comment, as it is only through a fair representation of the many members that have replied that will help those that complained to read them, agree or disagree and make up their minds as to what course they wish to take.

    That I was asked to make the original post was for two reasons, 1) some folk do feel intimidated (I am not ) on this site and this is not something new and was further exaggerated by the recent retirement of some very respected members which has driven a wedge between present admins and past admins not necessarily my opinion but I am the Devils advocate here. I find is sad that this has errupted out of the blue on a site that I have always felt had a warm fuzzy feel to it unless you (like someone I know) persist in having "Busy backgrounds" and thus incur the wrath of Artie.:)

    2) A few of the folk do not have a great grasp of English so the penmanship was to be mine.

    Two points on a personal nature, one relating to a comment by a Mr. Mills about the cost of being a member of this site, have a look at my join date and member number and compare it to yours, please don't try to insult me on matters of money and loyalty as you would be wasting your time. I took one look at this site and joined up forthwith and will continue to happily pay my 5 Big Macs worth in the future as I have no intention of leaving the ship even if it sails through a few small gales.

    The second relates to a good post by James but I just wish to point out to James that some who made the observations are closer to him than he may think, no names no pack drill James.

    I knew when I posted this on their behalf that it would incur some rancour but as an old friend and fellow ex Lawyer Jay Gould can attest we are very hardned to rancor as we made a very good living from it.

    Reading what I have read, I hope will go some way to allay the fears of those who worry about this site, some I know intend to leave, (I am not one of them) some have already found other sites and are testing the waters there and some have gone off to search out our recently departed Admins out of great respect and loyalty to some fine folk that most of us owe a great deal and (This IS my opinion,) have left a gaping hole in this site.

    My point of view is simple. I have long since ceased to regularly post my Avian images here as they did not fit into the style and quality of the images that grace this site but I get as much if not more pleasure from looking at the wonderful work that is so common to this site and the forums that I do participate in I enjoy and I read just about everything there is to read here.

    I share my work with some members privately, partly because I can give them much larger Images to work with and partly because we have a different and private relationship and I have learned much more from our private conversations that would be possible from the small (yes I do understand bandwidth) images posted here, I have this site to thank for their friendship.

    I hope but doubt that the replies will satisfy all the concerns expressed to me, possibly we will lose some members possibly time will heal any wounds.

    I hope this helps if not, C'est la vie.

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    Publisher Arthur Morris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack williamson View Post
    I have never posted anything on this site. I have been watching and learning for a few months now. I will say this, I have seen some excellent photography and learned a great deal from the people who take the time to critique. To the people who take their time to respond and to the people who run this site, thank you. I will begin posting my own images soon and I will become a paying member. Thank you for your time.
    Hey Jack, Thanks for your kind and supportive words. We look forward to seeing your images somewhere down the road.
    BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher C.M. Cooke View Post
    I decided to leave this up for a while to allow many others to comment, as it is only through a fair representation of the many members that have replied that will help those that complained to read them, agree or disagree and make up their minds as to what course they wish to take.

    That I was asked to make the original post was for two reasons, 1) some folk do feel intimidated (I am not ) on this site and this is not something new and was further exaggerated by the recent retirement of some very respected members which has driven a wedge between present admins and past admins not necessarily my opinion but I am the Devils advocate here. I find is sad that this has errupted out of the blue on a site that I have always felt had a warm fuzzy feel to it unless you (like someone I know) persist in having "Busy backgrounds" and thus incur the wrath of Artie.:)

    2) A few of the folk do not have a great grasp of English so the penmanship was to be mine.

    Two points on a personal nature, one relating to a comment by a Mr. Mills about the cost of being a member of this site, have a look at my join date and member number and compare it to yours, please don't try to insult me on matters of money and loyalty as you would be wasting your time. I took one look at this site and joined up forthwith and will continue to happily pay my 5 Big Macs worth in the future as I have no intention of leaving the ship even if it sails through a few small gales.

    The second relates to a good post by James but I just wish to point out to James that some who made the observations are closer to him than he may think, no names no pack drill James.

    I knew when I posted this on their behalf that it would incur some rancour but as an old friend and fellow ex Lawyer Jay Gould can attest we are very hardned to rancor as we made a very good living from it.

    Reading what I have read, I hope will go some way to allay the fears of those who worry about this site, some I know intend to leave, (I am not one of them) some have already found other sites and are testing the waters there and some have gone off to search out our recently departed Admins out of great respect and loyalty to some fine folk that most of us owe a great deal and (This IS my opinion,) have left a gaping hole in this site.

    My point of view is simple. I have long since ceased to regularly post my Avian images here as they did not fit into the style and quality of the images that grace this site but I get as much if not more pleasure from looking at the wonderful work that is so common to this site and the forums that I do participate in I enjoy and I read just about everything there is to read here.

    I share my work with some members privately, partly because I can give them much larger Images to work with and partly because we have a different and private relationship and I have learned much more from our private conversations that would be possible from the small (yes I do understand bandwidth) images posted here, I have this site to thank for their friendship.

    I hope but doubt that the replies will satisfy all the concerns expressed to me, possibly we will lose some members possibly time will heal any wounds.

    I hope this helps if not, C'est la vie[/I].
    Hi Chris, Thanks for dropping by. I do not understand several things that you mentioned but such is life I guess. I would love to have you explain some of them but your attitude above seems to be kiss off. If I am wrong please let me know and I shall ask for clarifications.

    The one thing that I cannot fathom are your (or your pals' ???--it is hard to tell who was speaking when one goes back to your original post) statements as follow:

    "Many of the comments that friends and members have made to me are the commercial direction that the site appears to be going.

    The many questions asked, seem to be directed to an advertising mode and the once great philosophy of photography for the greater good of the art appears to have been sacrificed to expensive and unaffordable to most, guided tours that though wonderful, are out of the range of the majority of members."

    I ask again, what in the world are you (or they) talking about? Please provide even a single link and show me what whomever is talking about. The stuff about forsaking the "once great philosophy of photography for the greater good of the art" for a more commercial approach is--to put it bluntly--pure bs. Was that your concerns or the concerns of your running mates. If the latter, please have them chime in here.

    Lastly, if folks prefer to hear "Big Congrats" for their poor images rather than receive honest critiques they are free to leave. As several of us have indicated, we are staying true to our course here.
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    Publisher Arthur Morris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Kes View Post
    .....

    You cannot expect BPN to be your mother, who will like whatever you shoot.
    All well said and thanks for your support. The line that I left above cracked me up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Tracy View Post
    In a effort to try to lighten the mood I present the following:
    Thanks for converting the "Sliding Shadle Shiny Scale" to the "Sliding Shadle Sensitivity Scale".
    Leave it to Chris to drop a line that inside on 9500 people.

    Way back in the day I offered a discounted workshop for members of Photomigrations.Net .
    Chris, Deb, Debbie, Mike B and Bill Horn were there (who did I miss?).
    We were covering exposure theory and I explained how scene tonality affected reflected meters. I then went on to explain that reflectivity of the metered area also affected the meter.

    Before I was done explaining, our own Chris Ober dubbed my reflectivity theory the "Sliding Shadle Shiny Scale"

    The workshop was a hoot and yes, Chris does own and use a camera;)

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    Chris,
    You lost me here. Please help me understand: "The second relates to a good post by James but I just wish to point out to James that some who made the observations are closer to him than he may think, no names no pack drill James."

    Thanks

  28. #78
    Christopher C.M. Cooke
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    Artie,

    What I said about being the "Devils Advocate" is the point, I wrote on behalf mostly of others so lets clear up one point my personal disappointment was the departure of two (and now possibly more) folk for whom I had an extraordinary respect and who like so many others recieved their benign guidance when I needed it and the way many of us felt about way of their leaving.

    As regards commercialism, as you know I have enjoyed all my purchases made through BPN and the guidance to other outlets by members here so no complaints from me there.

    The folk who complained had availed themselves of services provided in the USA, nothing whatsoever to do with the Aussie end and some of these folk are from other countries outside the USA and availed themselves of services when they visited the US. I have advised them to take the matters up with the people involved personally as I do not intend to enter further into what is really their business.

    My own observations is that the site is definitely going through a Hiatus on some forums and there does appear to be a little less appreciation shown by members to some who post images on the Avian forum.

    Every good site in whatever field has at some time or another had its "moments" I suspect the leaving of our senior members shook may of us to the core more so as to we don't really know what caused the breakup and as this is a privately owned site it is the right of the owners to keep those matters private.

    Reading the messages posted in this thread has also given me some concern as I could sense that some wished to speak their mind a bit more but were not comfortable to do so, also indicitative of a "family breakup"

    "I ask again, what in the world are you (or they) talking about? Please provide even a single link and show me what whomever is talking about. The stuff about forsaking the "once great philosophy of photography for the greater good of the art" for a more commercial approach is--to put it bluntly--pure bs. Was that your concerns or the concerns of your running mates. If the latter, please have them chime in here."

    It is not normally like you to be rude but I consider that statement to be personally offensive and certainly unnecessary and Artie what rubbish is this "running mates" this is a friendly forum and I never resort to political chicanery and "Chime in here" will just about guarantee that they won't and may well isolate others I totally fail to see the sense in that statement, especially as the author of "Birds as Art" a book and DVD that I treasure.

    I see no future in pursuing this as it appears to be deteriorating into personal attacks and I will have no part in that.

    Sorry one point I left out I believe was started by Dave Mills was the matter of membership fees, everyone who talked to me is a paid up member not one made any mention of fees being any concern at all and it never even occured to me until I read this thread that anyone could possibly complain about the value of the very moderate fee charged for the wealth of information supplied.
    Last edited by Christopher C.M. Cooke; 09-22-2010 at 09:10 PM.

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    Publisher Arthur Morris's Avatar
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    Hey Chris, Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
    BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.

    BIRDS AS ART Online Store: we will not sell you junk. 35 years of long lens experience. Please e-mail with gear questions.

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    Mr Cooke, If you read the threads carefully I was responding to Mr Sloan. You both happened to be named Chris so I can understand the mixup.
    Mr Sloan was very clear about his concern regarding a membership fee hurting the site and I was attempting to show the value of the site to counter his statement.
    I can't believe I'm even discussing $20.

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    Having no/little beef in that particular debate I DO wonder why Akos' post was deleted. JR

  32. #82
    Ken Watkins
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    I certainly hope not, I have learnt more from this site in two years than I could ever have found elsewhere.

    I must confess to not having posted in a while as I have been away in Southern Tanzania and Northern Zimbabwe. I now intend to post lots as I have lots, I only hope I have enough time.

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    Not to churp in with my 2 cents and risk sounding like a peace loving Canadian (Iam scottish by the way so not the peace hugging type :)) but it simply sounds like the forums are going through a bit of a change since a few big and well respected names moved on to knew things. We cant expect folks like the Forns etc to simply stay loyal to one site forever, people need a change. Unfortunetly they left big shoes to fill so why don't folks start being proactive about filling these shoes rather than complaining? This is a place of people opinions so people aint always going to see eye to eye and comments will be misinterpreted.

    I joined about a year ago and thanks to the critique and comments folks proivded my photography has improved ten fold. I am not posting this to brown nose but I see myself as the sort of amatuer who stands to learn a lot from the caliber of photos and critique available through this site and for $20 I can't complain.

    My site contains photos taken since joining BPN last October and I spent over a year prior to joining this site fumbeling about with so many unanswered questions.

    I am also a long way from being a so called expert so it looks like I'll be around for a while.

    My work in progress site and facebook page...

    http://jmdouglasphotography.zenfolio.com/

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/J-M-Do...50570641630962

    Jamie

    I am certainly much happier with my photography since joining this site a year ago so I will definetly be renewing my membership.
    Last edited by Jamie Douglas; 09-23-2010 at 12:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joerg Rockenberger View Post
    Having no/little beef in that particular debate I DO wonder why Akos' post was deleted. JR
    It had nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Several comments back I encouraged everyone to stay on topic.
    If Akos is serious he can send me a PM, he knows I'll be happy to speak with him about it.

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    Jamie,
    You said: "This is a place of people opinions so people aint always going to see eye to eye and comments will be misinterpreted."
    Art is an opinion business! And you know what they say about opinions;).

    You hit the nail one the head (as several have). Thanks for the comments.

  36. #86
    Christopher C.M. Cooke
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    Mr Cooke, If you read the threads carefully I was responding to Mr Sloan. You both happened to be named Chris so I can understand the mixup.
    Mr Sloan was very clear about his concern regarding a membership fee hurting the site and I was attempting to show the value of the site to counter his statement.
    I can't believe I'm even discussing $20.
    In which case I apologize I assumed that it was directed at myself which came as somewhat as a shock as I consider membership here as my best investment in the USA. :)

  37. #87
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    I want to say this,
    We are in a transition period. The new forum software package is not complete and I have yet to notify our members of some of the many new features.
    My work load has increased as you can imagine and that has prevented the completion of the above. The net result is all of the exciting features I should be implementing are temporally on the back burner.


    Several staff members have stepped up to take on additional responsibilities and have been lifesavers. Before long we will have additional qualified, energetic folks on staff (Jim Neiger is already on board).

    Let me tell you about the staff that we have right now. Most, if not all of our staff members were "strongly encouraged " to leave BPN by some in the small group that moved on.
    I received PMs and emails from our remaining staff members telling me in no uncertain terms they would not abandon our members. No matter how "strongly they were encouraged " to defect, they were staying because they made a commitment to you.
    In addition to expressing their commitment to you, they wondered how anyone could walk away from you and your BPN learning experience.

    I can not tell you how proud I am of our staff!!!!!!

    We are not going anywhere but up. As I said we are in a transition period, during a traditionally slow time of year.
    Once I have added additional staff members, we will finish the forum software and announce with tutorials the new member features.

    One final note. When I approached those who would become my partners with my idea for BPN, it was to be totally free. Thank goodness they talked some sense into me.
    As I learned, a good hosting service is expensive. I was prepared to work for free (as we all do) but I was not prepared(or able)to spends thousands of dollars a year out of pocket to keep "the doors open".

    I knew as mention earlier, advertising can be an issue (we may need to add some in the future) with members so we knew coming out of the block not to count on ad income.

    So we decided to make all of the features necessary to learn photography free. For those who wanted to help support the site (THANK YOU!!) and have some added features and privileges we came up with a very affordable membership.

    Please understand - without paid memberships, there would be no BPN - NSN -NPN.
    Not only are our paid members supporting BPN, they are also supporting those who choose to use BPN for free.

    Again to those who have chosen to support us by buying a membership, Thank You!!

    It's 2:30 am right now(USA EDT). I'll get up for the day job in 3.5 hours from now.
    If I felt the least bit unsure of our course, commitment or chances, I would have been in bed several hours ago rather than writing this note;).
    Last edited by James Shadle; 09-23-2010 at 01:37 AM.

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    As a member of about 3 years and as one who posts/comments often at times with rests between, I just want to add my support to the continuation of the site. I am not posting quite as often as when I first joined because of scheduling conflicts with my photo op times but mostly because I have learned so much from this site that I can now be more judgmental of what I should post. I don't want to post photos just for the fun of it. I want to participate and learn--and that happens for me. I have found I can be more observant in my critiques, having developed a better eye. I am amazed at the detail others have gone to as they write helpful guidance for me. Sometimes I post a photo and get no comments except from the moderator who I think took pity on me---and that's ok. I re-look at that photo to evaluate why it got no response. Othertimes, I get many comments. I'm not sure what all prompted this long, long group of comments about maybe closing the site, but I for one hope it stays open. I learn so much from others' comments and from trying to generate my own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazel Grant View Post
    As a member of about 3 years and as one who posts/comments often at times with rests between, I just want to add my support to the continuation of the site. I am not posting quite as often as when I first joined because of scheduling conflicts with my photo op times but mostly because I have learned so much from this site that I can now be more judgmental of what I should post. I don't want to post photos just for the fun of it. I want to participate and learn--and that happens for me. I have found I can be more observant in my critiques, having developed a better eye. I am amazed at the detail others have gone to as they write helpful guidance for me. Sometimes I post a photo and get no comments except from the moderator who I think took pity on me---and that's ok. I re-look at that photo to evaluate why it got no response. Othertimes, I get many comments. I'm not sure what all prompted this long, long group of comments about maybe closing the site, but I for one hope it stays open. I learn so much from others' comments and from trying to generate my own.
    No worries Hazel, we are not going anywhere!
    The original question was asked by someone for someone else who thought forum traffic may be down.
    The thread then took on a life of it's own.

    There is not even a remote chance we are going away (much to the chagrin of the haters)

  40. #90
    Super Moderator Daniel Cadieux's Avatar
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    I see BPN as a thriving and growing community of eager, willing, and thankful members/participants/mods. Yes, there was a bit of a short-term stumble a little while back with key people leaving...but there is a renewed energy and BPN has become stronger than ever and will continue to grow. There will always be some disagreements and misinterpretations on any forums (I've seen those on the "other" sites too)...especially when dealing with critiques where opinions can and do differ. All part of the learning experience for all of us.

    This thread alone proves the site is not dying out, but rather alive and well!:)

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    I wish you guys would stop deleting Akos's posts - I'd be interested to read what he has to say...when I sat down at the beginning of my coffee break there was a short post from him a couple of panes above this one. A couple of minutes later it was gone. Whatever happened to free speech?? :confused:

    Here's my 2 pennies for what they are worth (please remember that I'm a Brit :D).
    I do think that this is a wonderful site for many reasons and I can't imagine that anyone would quibble over $20. If you can afford bird photography as a hobby then you can afford $20. But that issue has already been done to death in this thread.
    I also think that it is true that the resignation of the Forns has left an huge hole. It seems to me that they were broad-minded and showed real compassion towards those of us who are trying to learn, and I received so much encouragement from both of them to be true to my own 'voice'. Part of the reason that I have not posted lately (apart from lack of time - I won't post unless I have time to comment on other people's work) is that I feel that I get little encouragement of this kind. It seems to me that if an image does not conform to certain rigid nature photography standards then there is a view here that the image is of little value. This is simply not true - there are so many ways in which to enjoy an image.
    The Forns also brought humour and a sense of community spirit to the site, particularly in 'Friends and Family'. Learning should be fun - maybe we should all lighten-up a little :cool:
    Respectfully,
    Nicki
    Last edited by Nicki Gwynn Jones; 09-23-2010 at 06:28 AM. Reason: spelling mistake...add info

  42. #92
    BPN Member Chris Ober's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki Gwynn Jones View Post
    I wish you guys would stop deleting Akos's posts - I'd be interested to read what he has to say...when I sat down at the beginning of my coffee break there was a short post from him a couple of panes above this one. A couple of minutes later it was gone. Whatever happened to free speech?? :confused:
    If replies were kept civil, on topic and didn't try imply a comparison to Eastern European communism, (as the one I saw did) then I'm sure they wouldn't have been removed.

    In the US, and this site is operated in the US, our constitutional rights are guaranteed only when the government (and not a private citizen) tries to limit our freedoms. Since this isn't a government owned or sponsored institution, the free speech rights in the first amendment are not guaranteed nor do they have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki Gwynn Jones View Post
    Learning should be fun - maybe we should all lighten-up a little :cool:
    Nicki
    Well said! Let's get back to photography and stop the bickering. Please?

    http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...Net-Guidelines
    Last edited by Chris Ober; 09-23-2010 at 08:01 AM.
    Chris


    0 .· ` ' / ·. 100
    I have a high sarcasm rate. Deal with it.
    include('sarcasm.php')

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    Wow! I just spent the first 30 minutes of my morning at work reading this thread (don't tell the boss please!). I think one thing the members / potential members need to keep in mind is that the administrators of this site have built the site & community how they envision it. I enjoy the site and how they have built it. While I may not agree with every little thing that goes on here, I do enjoy it for what it is...the best nature photography site on the net in which I can get honest critiques on my images and some very worthwhile information that has greatly improved my photography skills over the last year!

    I view it like this, this site is like a business in which the moderators (ie business owners) can run it as they desire. If a potential member doesn't care for it, they are free to leave, just like you would not go back to a business in which you feel you were treated poorly or just didn't care for. It's frustrating seeing unhappy participants trying to tell the moderators what is wrong with the site and why they don't like it, which causes everyone to get defensive and from that, no good comes along...IMO, of course.

    I once had the belief that with so much free information on the net about photography, putting money into web sites such as this and also workshops (which I feel are mostly over priced) are a waste. However, after subscribing to a couple of the more popular photography magazines and seeing what uninformative information (just my opinion) they put in them along with ALL the advertisements, I feel that the money to join this site is the best bang for your buck.

    Let's all go shoot and stop the bickering!

  44. #94
    Connie Mier
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    I wish I had caught this thread earlier, my point will probably seem moot by now. I belonged to a previous forum prior to joining BPN over a year ago. I honestly believe that my photography skills have increased more this past year partly due to the thoughtful critiques that I have received from so many. My previous experience was flat, I received very little if any constructive critiques (despite posting on others).

    I came to this forum for one reason to learn so that I can improve my photography skills, period (networking and making friends are bonuses). I prefer direct comments. Might be that I am use to being peer-reviewed in my profession and have been raked over the coals a few times that I can say, "Bring it on!". And the genuine "pat on the back" comments are useful too because that tells me that the photo has some merit to it.

    The bottomline is, I'll use those critiques and helpful suggestions to my advantage. There is nothing personally advantageous about getting bent out of shape over a comment or lack of comment.
    Connie

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    Hey Folks, let's get a grip! There are thousands of us out there participating on this site & there is bound to be disagreement when that number of people interact. Could everyone take a deep breath before keeping this thread going?

    This is a valuable site and we should be concentrating on contributing to it's success, not tearing it down. And on the defense side, maybe being not quite so defensive could help. I know this site is dear to the developers/moderators, but this back & fourth is only making things worse. Let this thread die.

    This is reply # 96 - is this a record?

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    Co-Founder James Shadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki Gwynn Jones View Post
    I wish you guys would stop deleting Akos's posts - I'd be interested to read what he has to say...when I sat down at the beginning of my coffee break there was a short post from him a couple of panes above this one. A couple of minutes later it was gone. Whatever happened to free speech?? :confused:

    Here's my 2 pennies for what they are worth (please remember that I'm a Brit :D).
    I do think that this is a wonderful site for many reasons and I can't imagine that anyone would quibble over $20. If you can afford bird photography as a hobby then you can afford $20. But that issue has already been done to death in this thread.
    I also think that it is true that the resignation of the Forns has left an huge hole. It seems to me that they were broad-minded and showed real compassion towards those of us who are trying to learn, and I received so much encouragement from both of them to be true to my own 'voice'. Part of the reason that I have not posted lately (apart from lack of time - I won't post unless I have time to comment on other people's work) is that I feel that I get little encouragement of this kind. It seems to me that if an image does not conform to certain rigid nature photography standards then there is a view here that the image is of little value. This is simply not true - there are so many ways in which to enjoy an image.
    The Forns also brought humour and a sense of community spirit to the site, particularly in 'Friends and Family'. Learning should be fun - maybe we should all lighten-up a little :cool:
    Respectfully,
    Nicki

    Nicki,
    Akos comments were off topic and I ask earlier in this thread that everyone stay on topic. Akos and I exchanged PMs about the matter and he understands why I deleted them.

    The Family and Friends forum was my idea, so I feel the way you do. It does foster a sense of community and it's fun. When the Forns left some of their close friends left also.
    Judy Lynn and Harold were our "Friends and Family" moderators. IMO that is why the educational side of BPN was unaffected, but it "feels" different.
    Let me assure you I'm working hard to get the feel back, like I said this is a transition period.

    Most have heard me state my goal for BPN to be the best place to teach and learn as well as a fun place.
    That goal has not changed.

    When without any warning or advanced notice, key staff members leave a forum it takes a little time to fill those shoes.
    Had I known in advance we would have prepared accordingly.

  47. #97
    Publisher Arthur Morris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardLaBella View Post
    This is reply # 96 - is this a record?
    Hi Rich, Good to see you here. Head Angle Fine Points currently has 147 comments. In time it will pass 1,000. There is tons of great free info in Educational Resources, our most under-utilized forum.
    BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.

    BIRDS AS ART Online Store: we will not sell you junk. 35 years of long lens experience. Please e-mail with gear questions.

    Check out the new SONY e-Guide and videos that I did with Patrick Sparkman here. Ten percent discount for BPN members,

    E-mail me at samandmayasgrandpa@att.net.










  48. #98
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    This is reply # 96 - is this a record?
    Still way off;).

  49. #99
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    This debate started innocently enough with a query about participation in BPN since the departure of two highly respected founders, the Forns, and a few other moderators who followed in their wake.
    Because of the timing of the original, legitimate query, its posting was understandably greeted with suspicion by our current leadership.
    As much as most of us would prefer to get back to photography discussions, this one shows that healing after a trauma takes time.
    Full recovery would occur much sooner if all who wish to speak would be permitted to do so, freely. If their remarks are hurtful or incendiary, so be it. Their intent will be transparent and their message diminished.
    The good news: everyone who has participated in this discussion has contributed to the strengthening of BPN.
    The better news: Thanks to the generous mentoring of Arthur Morris and the other artisan moderators, plus the engagement of image artists from all over the globe, the Internet's most prestigious avian photography community will thrive and prosper.
    Bill Jobes



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    Walk Softly and Carry a Big Lens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Jobes View Post
    This debate started innocently enough with a query about participation in BPN since the departure of two highly respected founders, the Forns, and a few other moderators who followed in their wake.
    Because of the timing of the original, legitimate query, its posting was understandably greeted with suspicion by our current leadership.
    As much as most of us would prefer to get back to photography discussions, this one shows that healing after a trauma takes time.
    Full recovery would occur much sooner if all who wish to speak would be permitted to do so, freely. If their remarks are hurtful or incendiary, so be it. Their intent will be transparent and their message diminished.
    The good news: everyone who has participated in this discussion has contributed to the strengthening of BPN.
    The better news: Thanks to the generous mentoring of Arthur Morris and the other artisan moderators, plus the engagement of image artists from all over the globe, the Internet's most prestigious avian photography community will thrive and prosper.

    Bill,
    So as long as the comments are on topic and civil they are allowed.
    Guideline #11 would take issue with " hurtful or incendiary".

    You were a newspaper man:), I'm adding the words hurtful or incendiary to guideline #11.
    James

    PS Bill, how about helping out in the new Photojournalism forum;).

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