I was told to leave Crystal Cove State Park by a ranger.

[Jared Lloyd]

Im just currious as to why she kicked you out instead of simply issuing you a permit on the spot? With the war at hand, many state and federal areas are finding themselves in desperate need for money to keep these areas open. This I understand. Is the permit situation in California park by park, or can you buy an annual photographers pass like a national parks pass? Theres also talk about requiring people to purchase passes to enter and use national forests as well - does anyone know anything about this?

[William Malacarne]

I Theres also talk about requiring people to purchase passes to enter and use national forests as well - does anyone know anything about this?

Adventure Pass....National Forest Southern Calif. Here is the link as it is much easier than trying to write it all. I off hand do not know if this is also at other places.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sanbernardin...-options.shtml

Bill M

[Amy DeStefanis]

The question Art mentions that he found on the application for a permit makes it sound like it's professional EVENT photographers that the state is trying to ensure have gotten permits.... It sounds as if they are trying to keep large events (movie crews? large photo shoots for magazines with models/makeup/hair, etc? even weddings?) under control.... But somewhere along the lines, the purpose for the controls has run amok.

Who wants to volunteer to get arrested and find out? :D

[BillPelzmann]

The question Art mentions that he found on the application for a permit makes it sound like it's professional EVENT photographers that the state is trying to ensure have gotten permits.... It sounds as if they are trying to keep large events (movie crews? large photo shoots for magazines with models/makeup/hair, etc? even weddings?) under control.... But somewhere along the lines, the purpose for the controls has run amok. ..... :D

I agree, Amy. This is a classic example of how a well intentioned regulation gets twisted, and why such regulations need to be clearly written to avoid such an outcome. Where are those lawyers when you need them...:D

[Jason Hahn]

Not to hijack your thread, but last year I called the powers that be in Tallahassee to find out what the requirements were for professional photographers in Florida State Parks. According to the folks I talked to at that time, there were no limits on photographing in Florida Parks or on running photography workshops for profit. Then this past fall in Falling Waters State Park, we were told that pro photography was not allowed. I told them that I was trold by Tallahassee that it was okay, but they didn't care. Not sure what the right answer is, but I would be curious to know what other Florida photogs have run into.

Jason

[Jared Lloyd]

professional photography was not allowed period?!?!?

[Christopher Hill]

Perhaps we should look at this a bit differently.

Parks don't belong to us as individuals, they belong to a population as a whole. As owners of a resource, the population can reasonably expect individual users of that resource who wish to make a profit from it to pay for its usage. To manage that resource, the population's representatives (the appropriate government) regulate its commercial use through permits and fees that cover expenses above and beyond the normal cost of upkeep (the normal upkeep is, of course, payed for by the owners through their taxes and through the entry fees - if any - charged all users).

So it's really not an issue of "Are you a professional photographer?" or "Is that professional equipment?" but rather "Will you be using these images you are taking to make a profit?"

If we can't seem to see this clearly, is it so hard to understand that a park ranger wouldn't? If there is a problem where people who use these parks for profit claim they are just doing it for personal pleasure to avoid the hassle of a permit or the cost of a license, is it really surprising that rangers employ a form of profiling based on the cost of the equipment being used to weigh the veracity of such claims?

That said, my personal feeling is that taking pictures is a far cry from other private uses of public resources like cutting down trees, grazing cattle, mining for ore, or drilling for oil. No damage is done by pressing a shutter button (I'm not addressing the act of getting to the place where the picture was taken, however). The object photographed isn't physically degraded from such usage and the idea of recovering the cost of usage purely from the photo is misplaced. I think the idea that someone who made a few dollars (or even many dollars) from an image he took should pay a usage fee is more about jealousy of a sort than it is about real economics. I have no desire to have to apply for a permit and possibly pay a fee to take pictures for pleasure just because at some date in the future I may decide to enter one of my photos in a contest with prizes, or even sell a copy of it to someone. Like most of you, I think it's entirely wrong-headed - any fees or permits should be firmly based on unusual usage, inconvenience, or cost above that normally incurred by a typical user of the park.

[David Kennedy]

It would seem that the only way to get a straight answer to any of the above would be to get arrested and find out what the law actually is....

Hmm....maybe if we create a legal defense fund first........

I do recall in 2006 when new rules were put in place by the NPS, but clearly those were for federal lands, not state and local lands. The NPPA had a brief piece here, and Michael Reichmann's interpretation (scroll down for May 2006 updates) was that:

Photographers doing any commercial still, film or video work in National Parks in the US should be aware of new rules which take effect in two weeks time. They mean that a permit will be required and fees will be charged. Fine Art and other non-commercial photographers should not be affected, but I've had enough run-ins with NP staff and rangers in the past to know that the sight of a tripod and pro level gear is going to elicit some heated debates in the days ahead. And, if you've ever tried to argue with a state trooper over a speeding ticket, you've already had a dress rehearsal for how those conversations are going to go.