wild and free versus hand of man
I know this may raise some feathers but I think it should be addressed.
1.
is not a photo of a bird of prey that is baited a hand of man really should be if the prey is in mouth I would like to see this as a question or a vote maybe.
2, also if there is cloning out of objects or added features like wing extensions and such I belive this also to be a hand of man element
Just my 2 cents
thanks
John
Hand of man are things like Fences, Walls etc... Man made structures/items
I know as I asked the same question, I thought as you.....
here is a link http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ead.php?t=3763
Last edited by Pete Woods; 03-08-2008 at 11:21 AM.
We are using the VISIBLE hand of man as the guideline.
Otherwise we'd have to go on a honor system, who is to determine if a bird other than Owls was baited? Fish is used too ;)
I agree Fabs but a photo showing what is easily seen as a mouse which would never be in the wild would in my opinion definately a hand of man element
Or a bird with a cut up fish also.
as far as i know ginso knifes are not sold to birds
Last edited by john crookes; 03-08-2008 at 11:51 AM.
Point taken John !!!
The reason we stabished the categories was for a broader view which I think its serving its purpose very well If you are uncomfortable posting a certain image in one category then place in the other
We are not going to split hairs on this issue I like the overall functioning for both and don't fell we need any changes
the division works well for me as defined.
Most are noting in the techs that subject was "baited"
On that issue, which forum matters not at all to me.....only the image
For that matter if I approach a bird that takes flight....can't call that hand of man
The gray area is that there is a sort of stigma attached to the hand of man forum that it is not really wildlife photography and that is why you have a ratio of about 10 - 1 of post int the wild and free as opposed to the hand of man.
I feel that there are times that hand of man can be taken to far too like when a shrike has impaled a insect on a string of barbed wire. with this forum that would be hand of man but in reality it is nature at its best making do of what is at hand.
on the hand a baited object would be dismissed in almost every contest of wildlife photos
the standards were set by the PSA and almost everyone follows those standards
I do not agree with either entirely
I feel that htere are plenty of wild and free avian subjets that just happen to be near a hand of man element
that is why they are wild and free they choose where to go not us
Au natural please. I don't believe any of us should be baiting birds or grizzle bears or alligators for that matter. Capture them as you find them, and keep their world undisturbed .
Go to a zoo or private facility to shoot those birds you can't find or wont work for in the field. But please don't bait them.
Shoot well folks,
Peter
This waqs not meant as a put down of baited subjets . On the contrary i believe it is a viable way to achieve a photograph that would not have happened any other way. I believe that it is the hand of man though and is the utmost hand of man photograph
As I said before this is my opinion and I was just trying to get a general feel from the forum. That is the idea of a forum to let the participants speak their piece and let others chime in as they feel fit
John
My personal guide - and I don't expect anybody else to follow this necessarily - is that if I went out and took a photograph of a bird in its natural habitat without artificially creating the scene, it's Wild and Free. If the bird's natural habitat happens to include something man made, then personally I wouldn't see an issue with it being Wild and Free, as that's where the bird lives.
If I were to bait (I don't bait, unless you count bird feeders in my yard), or if I post pictures of birds on my deck, I would put them in Hand of Man. I have, for example, a branch tied up to my deck so that the birds can use it as a perching point next to the feeders. The pictures look fairly natural - after all, it's a branch the bird is perched on - but since I put the branch there, I go for Hand of Man.
I guess to me I view the difference to be a matter of the level of interference with the bird. That may not be the intent from the forum creators, but that's my personal perspective.
I'm interested (disappointed?) though to read that there is some kind of stigma attached to Hand of Man. :(
As a user of both forums I think they're working well.
Only possible nit is with banded birds which in most cases are wild and free except when in fairly obvious captive situation.
Probably simplest to leave well alone.
Ian Mc
John there is no stigma place to hand of man? What are talking about?
We are just having two separate galleries and no implication one is any better/worthy than the other. There are more entries in wild and free because there are less birds to photograph with the hand of man. Simple!!
JH a bird with "Hand of Man" will not go into the wild and free gallery. It has nothing to do with the bird being or not wild and free. I has to do with the way it is classified for purposes of posting. Its actually very simple. Also I don't see where the stigma comes in. There is no stigma.
Can't remember the person's name but we had one student last year at on of the IPTs that had raptors around Central Park. The images were all with man made elements and as appealing/good as any that I have seen. Makes me want to go to NY and shoot. All of those would go in the hand of man gallery. Again is just a way to present images. No indication it is a lesser image on anyones part that I'm aware.
Originally Posted by john crookes
We feel the separation is working well as for now and see no reason why we should change it.
Thanks you for sharing your thoughts.
Stigma may have been a strong word and the folks in the bpn forum are far from viewing one type of image better than another. What was meant was that the general public views a captive subjet photographed in a different view than one photographed in the natural surroundings. By placing Hand of man in the same forum it gets lumped into that same view whether it is fair or not. With only 300 and so posts in that forum is is getting not nearly the attention that some of the photos should be getting.
I would dare say that when a guest views the forums that the guest do not nearly look at the hand of man forum as it should be.
I post in both and I have no complaints about the way it is seen within the community I only state that which I se happen in the outside and sometimes it can carry over to our own feelings
John
I in turn was referring to John's post earlier in the thread,
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote