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Thread: Head Angle Fine Points

  1. #251
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    AG for me too :) I have made you guys too smart. AH is good but AG is clearly better and more engaging. The main point again is that there is no one best head angle, just a best head angle for a given pose.

    ps: Excellent points raised by all especially by Mike immediately above.
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  2. #252
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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    Here is a new quiz. This is image AI.
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  3. #253
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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    And this is image AJ. Both are wigeons on ice.

    Based on head angle, which image do you prefer and why?
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  4. #254
    AlvanBuckley
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    Hi Artie,
    I'm not seeing an image for AJ...
    so, since AJ has no head I think the HA in AI is superior!

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    Thanks Alvan, How about now? :) Thanks for catching my brain typo!
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  6. #256
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    Looks good now.
    I'm going to keep my vote for AI.
    In AI the left foot is forward resulting in the body being parallel or slightly turned away from the viewer, but the head is still parallel with the sensor. I find that more pleasing and better as a portrait photo.
    In AJ the right foot is forward and so the bird is turned toward the viewer and the head is turned towards the camera as well. Although there seems to be more engagement I don't like the head angle in AJ as much as in AI.

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    I like AJ
    The Wigeon is making eye contact with you and the slight head turn makes me feel like I'm having a special little moment with the lovely looking bird.

    In AI it looks like the quaker is just marching on by and I feel disassociated from it.

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    Personally I like AJ gives me contact with the bird. Now saying that AI appleas to me also, because the bird is on ice and it is looking where it steps to keep from sliding, just I do when walking on ice :D

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    AJ for me. The head is turned just a bit toward the camera. The give away for me was the position of the beak relative to the body

    //jon
    Jon Saperia

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    What do you all think of the light on the face in the two images ??? There-in lies the key here for me :)
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  11. #261
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    The light/shading of AI is better I - it is a bit darker which makes the colors nicer. I did not notice that until you pointed it out. That said, I think the difference could be made up in post processing

    /jon
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    Jon, I am confused by this:

    "The light/shading of AI is better I - it is a bit darker which makes the colors nicer."

    All that I asked about was the light on the face....
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    I think the difference is very subtle but the eye and surrounds are a little brighter in AJ. As I've learned everyone love bright eyes and a well lit face.

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    In AI the head is just about parallel to the back of the camera and though that was the original standard, it does not work here. o me, the face of the bird looks dark, even slightly turned away from us. With the head of the bird in AJ turned slightly towards us the face and eye are lit perfectly. As I have been saying from the start head angle is more about how the light strikes the bird's face and eye than it is about rules or guidelines :)

    For me it's AJ by a mile.

    And the winner is, Chris Martinez. Well done Chris. 2nd place to Myer. :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    head angle is more about how the light strikes the bird's face and eye than it is about rules or guidelines

    I'll put this in the memory bank!!!:D

  16. #266
    BPN Member Jon Saperia's Avatar
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    Hi Artie,

    To recap, my choice was AJ and stayed that way.

    In response to the point about lighting, now that I look at the question is was one of those 'who's buried in Grant's Tomb" type questions. What I liked about the light on AI was the slightly darker feathers on the forehead.

    Keep making us think.... Thanks very much for this.
    /jon
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    Artie, I agree with your choice. But I think its because of the species. For wigeon hen(its my favorite hen to shoot), I also find that unless the head is perfectly lit, it does not look very good...because of the dark eye and the darker feathers around it. If this was a different species, I think I'd have chosen the other image because I think that HA goes better with the walking pose.

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    Unfortunately, I missed the voting on the Wigeon pair, but I'd like to share my thoughts anyway, if that's ok.

    I agree with Artie's choice of AJ rather than AI, but I'm still concerned about the separation of HA and lighting considerations. I think it's possible to have a pair of images in which the one with the better HA doesn't have the best lighting. For example, if the Wigeon had rotated its head such that its eye pointed skyward, the lighting on its face may have been even better than in AJ, but its 'twisted' HA may have resulted in a less pleasing pose. In fact, the reason AJ has better lighting than AI is largely due to the fact that the dominant lighting was from over Artie's right shoulder. Therefore, had the bird been walking from left to right, a head-turn towards the camera would have reduced the facial illumination.

    To respond strictly to the original question, namely "Based on head angle, which image do you prefer and why?", I would try to force myself to ignore lighting and other considerations. My thinking would therefore be as follows. In AI, the HA is pretty much 'field guide style' and therefore basically good, but perhaps lacking in interest/engagement. Compared with AI, the head in AJ is turned slightly towards the camera, resulting in a greater sense of rapport/engagement. In fact, for my taste, this is just the right amount of rotation in this plane. However, the head is also rotated in the vertical plane such that the bird's bill is pulled closer to its chest. I feel this rotation results in a slightly awkward, twisted pose and I would have preferred that the bird had kept its bill-tip up more as it turned toward the camera. Nevertheless, on balance, I feel the increased engagement outweighs the slight awkwardness and would therefore choose AJ on a pure HA basis.

    Obviously, if choosing which of the two images to publish, HA would be one of many considerations. For me, given the two similar images AI and AJ, the other key differences are:
    1. AJ has better facial illumination, as already mentioned.
    2. AJ has a better overall pose, because the bird in AI looks unstable, as if falling forward.
    3. AI has motion blur in one foot, which can be good in some types of image but doesn't add anything here.
    4. AJ has some strong lines in the legs and feet, 'square' on the trailing leg and diagonal on the leading leg.
    5. The leading leg/foot in AJ are positioned very elegantly.
    6. AJ has a cleaner background adjacent to the head (although the white patch in AI can be fixed in post-processing, there is always a risk of introducing artefacts).

    I therefore agree that AJ wins overall by a mile, but not just due to the HA difference.

    Looking forward to the next pair!!

    Mike.

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    Agree, but my reactions to various image differences are more on a gut level rather than an analytical basis :) We do, however, usually wind up in the same place. Here I have already deleted AH.
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  20. #270
    BPN Member Jon Saperia's Avatar
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    I like the evolution of this thread even if it seems like we are moving away from HA only discussion. Several times Artie and others have pointed out other important factors. In the end, it is all the different factors (yes some are more important than others and some can even be fixed on the computer) that help us decide what is a good image vs. one that is a stand out.
    /jon
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    I agree 100% :) I will try to come up with the next quiz asap :)
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    Hi, Jon.

    Sorry if I'm mentioning other factors apart from HA.

    My intention in doing so is twofold:
    1. to try to clarify the distinctions between HA and other factors (e.g. lighting).
    2. to try to position HA considerations in relation to broader considerations (e.g. in terms if significance in specific situations).

    I agree that the discussion shouldn't go 'off topic'.

    Kind regards,
    Mike.

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    Hi Mike,

    No worries. I was not at all suggesting this was off topic, but rather a good evolution of the thread that Artie started. I think he posted that he agreed with the evolution. I do not want to put words in his mouth but I think he would say that a bad Head Angle spoils a picture for him, but that HA, while critical, is not the only factor as we have been discussing.

    My read of his post is that his next challenge may ask about several factors - but he can speak for himself :-)

    I am finding this very useful in several respects. I think I am getting better at knowing 'when not to take a picture' and when I do, I can more effectively and rapidly determine if it is good or not. Unfortunately I am now a better critic than photographer. The other thing is I think I can look at other work and know what works and what does not work better so if I post any comments, I think they will be more constructive.

    /jon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Atkinson View Post
    Hi, Jon.

    Sorry if I'm mentioning other factors apart from HA.

    My intention in doing so is twofold:
    1. to try to clarify the distinctions between HA and other factors (e.g. lighting).
    2. to try to position HA considerations in relation to broader considerations (e.g. in terms if significance in specific situations).

    I agree that the discussion shouldn't go 'off topic'.

    Kind regards,
    Mike.
    Mike, I welcome all of your comments. To me there is no "off topic." Posts are like conversations, if it interests you, go there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Saperia View Post
    I am finding this very useful in several respects. I think I am getting better at knowing 'when not to take a picture' and when I do, I can more effectively and rapidly determine if it is good or not. Unfortunately I am now a better critic than photographer. The other thing is I think I can look at other work and know what works and what does not work better so if I post any comments, I think they will be more constructive.

    /jon
    Jon, I like these words a lot. They succinctly summarise the benefits of analysing and critiquing as many images as possible.

    For a UK-based community with several thousand members, I go through over 1000 bird images every week, from which are selected a ranked 'top 20' list and an overall Photo of the Week. For the latter, I do a write-up explaining why it was selected. Having done this for nearly four years now, I know what you mean about being a better critic than photographer! As you say, though, it certainly hones your own instincts. My main problem is getting time in the field to put this into practice.

    Mike.

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    Agree with you Jon and Mike. Teaching is one of the best ways to learn.

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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    Based on head angle, do I keep this image, Image AK?
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  28. #278
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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    Based on head angle, do I keep this image, Image AL?
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    I say keep AJ. The head is just slightly turned towards the viewer.

    Ditch AK. The head appears to be turned away a little bit. The top of the birds head is out of view. It just "feels" odd.

    Just my gut feelings I can't really explain why more thoroughly. Hopefully better(technical) explanations will come with time.

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    AJ was the last quiz :)
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    OOOPS:o

    AK is the keeper

    AL goes in the bin:cool:

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    I pick AL because the head in AJ is slightly turned in a CCW direction & therefore the eye looking down. In AL the head is more parallel with the sensor plane. The HA in AJ is less parallel to the sensor plane.
    Andrew

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    I pick AK the bird isa coming in for a landing and the head is slightly turned and looking at where it is going to land

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    I say AK - stared at these a bunch. The head angle pointing down just a bit for the landing as already noted helps. It has the effect of making the eye pop a bit more from what I see. The angle causes the hole head down to the shoulders to have a more pleasing shape.
    /jon
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    If they were mine, I would keep both:) but I prefer AK where the osprey is focused on its nest and landing. The head on AK looks like it may be rotated a couple of degrees away from us thereby showing a bit of the top of the head but there is also more detail in the feathers on the neck. To me it's just a more interesting photo. Now if the nest wasn't there and we just had the 2 shots of the osprey side by side on a blue sky bg, my guess is more of us would prefer AL.

    Rachel

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    Based on head angle alone I would probably choose AL. However, I do not think it is the best image of the two.

    My vote is for AK - the Osprey is focused on his target landing area and the head is angled in a dramatic way. The talons are also very clearly separated from each other and the background (unlike in AL where they are crowded together). Detail is more visible on both wings, tail feathers are separated.

    thanks
    Charles

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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    I deleted both as the heads are turned away from the plane of the sensor. AL is the better of the two as far as head angle but the head is turned away just enough to get the image deleted.

    I did however keep this one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    I deleted both as the heads are turned away from the plane of the sensor. AL is the better of the two as far as head angle but the head is turned away just enough to get the image deleted.
    I thought that might be the case with these examples. However, the question is: Which image has the better HA? as opposed to Which image should I delete or keep?
    Andrew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Merwin View Post
    I thought that might be the case with these examples. However, the question is: Which image has the better HA? as opposed to Which image should I delete or keep?
    Sorry Andrew, I gotcha! See panes #279 and 280. Here is what you will find:

    Based on head angle, do I keep this image...?

    You gotta read the test questions carefully :)
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    But Artie, keeping a shot is all a matter of personal choice and largely dependent on what else you have in your files. I don't have any osprey shots nearly as good so would have kept them but if I already had your last posted shot, then my answer might be different. :)

    Rachel

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    Understood, Rachel, but my point is the neither of the two original images posted would make me happy and I am hoping that folks who did keep either one would be less than thrilled because each image has a less than ideal head angle :).
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  42. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Sorry Andrew, I gotcha! See panes #279 and 280. Here is what you will find:

    Based on head angle, do I keep this image...?

    You gotta read the test questions carefully :)
    Oops! My bad :o

    So then, of the 2 images, which HA is the best; AK or AL?
    Last edited by Andrew Merwin; 12-14-2010 at 01:53 PM.
    Andrew

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    As a former teacher, I am good at tricking folks :)

    Both are bad, the second one not as bad as the first which is worst.
    BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.

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  44. #294
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    Geez I was totally wrong:o But I've learned something!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Martinez View Post
    Geez I was totally wrong:o But I've learned something!!
    That is always the plan :)
    BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.

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  46. #296
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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    This is image AM.
    BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.

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  47. #297
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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    This is image AN.

    Which image has the best head angle for this pose? And why?
    BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.

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  48. #298
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    I like AN for two related reasons. First, the head in AN is turned a bit more toward the camera causing the eye to engage more. Second, the light seems to give a bit depth and highlight to the eye in AN which makes it more interesting.

    /jon
    Jon Saperia

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    I think AN has the better head angle and the head is upright and seems to make a stronger pose. AM seems to be turned away a little and head is down.

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    I agree with Jon for the exact reasons he mentioned. I also think that the nose is a little higher and this gives the bird a stronger posture, like "I'm the boss"

    AN

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