Best equipment for bee eaters in flight

[marco peschiera]

Hi everybody,

I need your help !

An example image is at http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ad.php?t=66636

I start this topic explaining my canon equipment....
400 5.6
( had the 300 f4 but too slow AF for bird in flight )
( tryed the 300 2.8 )
500 f4
1.4x - 2x
Mark IV

I would like to take as more as human possible ( or even more ) a picture with a full frame of a bee eater in flight without cropping.

So in my 20-or more days making picture of bee eater i realize the follow considerations:
1) The 400 5.6 is much better than 500 f4 or 500 f4 + 1.4x because is easier taking a good picture with a 400 5.6 and the bird at 10meter than with 500 f4 or 500 f4+1.4 at a bee eater at 20meter
as well with a 500 f4 i must use a Wimberly that doesn't help at all to frame the bird correctly.

2) I tryed to use extension tube of 12mm on my 400 5.6 ( limited AF at 8,5m to infinity )
So the AF will became somethink like 6meter to 14meter.
anyway the AF is too slow to keep a full frame bee eater in the photo with a bee eater at 6-7meter about.
I have hundred of picture with the bee eater in flight at 7m ( so is FULL in the FRAME ) but not focus right.

3) I tryed the king of the autofocus ( the 300 f2.8 ) BUT
-If i use 1.4x the AF is just a little SLOWER than 400 5.6
-the LENS is too HEAVY to more FAST following a bee eater.
-If i use the lens without any converter is starting the problem that the bird is too far....
So to take a full frame picture i need the bird at 4-5meter and not 6-7meter....

4) the best AF in these picture is using 45 points automaticaly.
These because the background is always sky.... and because i can't put the central point on the subject properly.

5) I'm just thinking now that i can try to Modify the AF correction putting a completly FRONT FOCUS so actually the AF of 400 5.6 is too slow when the bird is caming close to me ... and with the front focus i can take it in focus.
I'm actually thinking that my problem is about the delay of the camera to take the picture....
So... i have in focus the subject... i press the shutter.... the time between i press the botton for making the picture and the picture is really taken.... ( 100ms or somethink like that need it to move the mirror and the other think in front of the CCD ) the bird is not in focus anymore....
So 100ms are too much in these case.... ( a bee eater at 7meter distance with a markIV and 400 5.6 )

Remember that i'm trying to have a bee eater at a distance of about 6-7meter flying FAST, very FAST....

So my question is:
-The 400 f4 DO is faster AF than 400 5.6 ??
-Does exist a camera with faster AF than markIV ? ( I think NO )

Please response if you really tried one or more times to make picture of bee eater in flight....
because what i'm asking is only valid for bee eaters in flight...

Thanks to all the forum and thanks on all of you for your suggestions and experience!!!

[David Stephens]

Marco, you've tried all of the top prospect lenses and you've arrived at the excellent 400mm f/5.6L. I think at 10-meters that I can't argue with you. The 500mm f/4L IS will indeed require a tripod and Wimberley for most of us and these will be hard birds for us to follow with a 500mm any closer than 20-meteres. The 500mm plus 1.4x extender is going to be close to impossible to follow at that close range.

Are you tracking with both eyes open? I hadn't realized that I was closing my free eye and opening it was a major revelation. Still, there are limits to how accurately you can track with a super-tele vs. the 400mm.

So, are you looking from agreement from us, or is there another alternative that you'd like to explore?

[marco peschiera]

Hi David, nice to know your opinion,

Absolute agree that with a 500 you can't follow closer than 20m ( I would say 15m... but anyway you don't have the bee eater in full frame perfectly in focus )

Absolute agree that with a 500 and 1.4x you can't frame it closer than 25m... so as well not in full frame...

Yes, i'm keeping my left eye open that can help me to track the bird better when is going out the frame ( from the other eye looking in the camera with the 400 5.6 )

Well i never give up in my life if i really want somethink so ......
I'm think to became ingenear in optics so i can create the lens that i want....;);););)

Please help me ........
I'm really really interesting on the opinion of Arthur Morris and Chris van Rooyen

Let's see how can help me....

[marco peschiera]

Forgot to say that a very important think that can help is the WIND !!!

Yes, the wind... if is going in the direction against the bee eater they are going very very slow ( because against the wind ) and they are quite easy to take....

I will post now some bee eater with the moon.... Look in avian picture...

[Roger Clark]

Marco,
You don't say what AF mode you are using. Are you using servo mode? If not try that.

One issue with using all AF points is the different AF points will sense different focal positions, like wing tip, tail, head. Some of your soft images might be due to the camera choosing the wrong AF point. If so, then limit the AF to a single AF point or a small group.

Roger

[arash_hazeghi]

Marco,
A few points.

1) For close range flight forget about tripod you have to be hand hold.

2) You can certainly track these birds using 500mm hand hold, I regularly track fast shorebirds (Avocets and stilts fly fast and erratic) at ~20ft distance, it is tough but practice will get you better eye to mussel coordination, you should get to a point where you can look at the bird and then raise the lens aligned with your line of sight very very quickly, if you try to search for the bird you will miss!!!

This shot is 90% full frame with the 5D2, the Avocet was almost at MFD.



3) Do not use TC or extension tubes as you will lose light and AF will become slower (With any camera)

4) The best AF settings and technique will depend on the BG, sky is much easier than busy BG so practice getting them against plain sky first. For busy BG you need to use prefocus plus other techniques (I use intermittent tracking, locking the AF immediately with AF-ON button when I feel camera will lose AF, then I quickly release AF-ON just before I am ready to take the photo and fire off a short burst 4-5 images at a time)

5) Do not use all 45-points AF in MKIV, it is unstable and you will miss, even when BG is plain sky, it also makes focus slower because camera needs to process data from all 45 points. For sky BG I prefer "surrounding AF points" in CFn III settings, this will use 8 or 11 AF points around the selected point depending on if you have single or double point selected.

6) For sky BG I prefer maximum AF speed so I set tracking sensitivity to fast, since there is no BG distraction camera will not lock on BG but will drive the lens quickly enabling you to track fast moving subject at close range, but do NOT use "fast" setting for mixed BG as it will make the AF unstable.

7) do not mess up with micro adjustment, it will not help you get a better flight shot.

8) I don't think using 400 DO will solve your problems.

9) practice practice that is the key:)

Hope this helps

[arash_hazeghi]

Forgot to say that a very important think that can help is the WIND !!!

Yes, the wind... if is going in the direction against the bee eater they are going very very slow ( because against the wind ) and they are quite easy to take....

I will post now some bee eater with the moon.... Look in avian picture...

That is a very good call, I try to situation myself upwind so birds will slow down when flying towards me :)

[arash_hazeghi]

Marco,
One more point, at first when practicing do not take a burst of images, Just try to follow and track the bird in the finder keeping it centered. Observe the bird in the finder and notice how the camera tracks/loses AF at different points during flight and what is the flight path like. This will give you a good understanding of the camera's AF, try to just track the bird and take one single photo when you think it is in perfect focus. You will see that the photo gets sharper and sharper as your tracking improves.

Tracking fast birds is really tough and can be frustrating! sometimes they fly so fast AF just can't keep up, keep in mind it is not possible to make a sharp photograph in all conditions :)

[marco peschiera]

>>Are you using servo mode?
:eek::eek:Obviously !!! I did 30.000 picture at bee eater in flight ! Do you think i'm using ONE SHOT ???

>>1) For close range flight forget about tripod you have to be hand hold.

Ok, we agree

>>2) You can certainly track these birds using 500mm hand hold, I regularly track fast shorebirds (Avocets and stilts fly fast and erratic) at ~20ft distance, it is tough but practice will get you better eye to mussel coordination, you should get to a point where you can look at the bird and then raise the lens aligned with your line of sight very very quickly, if you try to search for the bird you will miss!!!

I'm sorry i can't understand what you mean...

>>3) Do not use TC or extension tubes as you will lose light and AF will become slower (With any camera)

For TC we agree, for extension tubes 12mm i'm not sure....
and if it's true who much i lose in AF ? 10% ??

4) The best AF settings and technique will depend on the BG, sky is much easier than busy BG so practice getting them against plain sky first. For busy BG you need to use prefocus plus other techniques (I use intermittent tracking, locking the AF immediately with AF-ON button when I feel camera will lose AF, then I quickly release AF-ON just before I am ready to take the photo and fire off a short burst 4-5 images at a time)

Absolutly agree.... i have sky background....

5) Do not use all 45-points AF in MKIV, it is unstable and you will miss, even when BG is plain sky, it also makes focus slower because camera needs to process data from all 45 points. For sky BG I prefer "surrounding AF points" in CFn III settings, this will use 8 or 11 AF points around the selected point depending on if you have single or double point selected.

MMMM... really really interesting... maybe exactly what i need.... REALLY REALLY THANKS...
I will tryed out in the next days....

6) For sky BG I prefer maximum AF speed so I set tracking sensitivity to fast, since there is no BG distraction camera will not lock on BG but will drive the lens quickly enabling you to track fast moving subject at close range, but do NOT use "fast" setting for mixed BG as it will make the AF unstable.

Ok, i'm doing the same...

7) do not mess up with micro adjustment, it will not help you get a better flight shot.

Ok, i'm thinking that actualy this could be a way .....

8) I don't think using 400 DO will solve your problems.

Ok, maybe can help.... 400 DO is an f4 and you can handhold well.
400 5.6 is f 5.6 so for sure there must be a difference in AF speed.
Both lens have a limiting AF from 8m to infinity.

9) practice practice that is the key:)

It's 1 year or more.... Anyway i will never give up !! I have all my life.... ( hoping i can reach 80 years old:):):))

>>Hope this helps

Absolutely thanks Arash, i think that in these 9 points the diamond one is the point number 5 (AF with central point and sorround 8 or 11 )

Actualy i think we shoul investigate more on the point:
3) extension tubes 12mm that slower AF
7) AF micro adjustement set on front focus
8) 400 DO

[marco peschiera]

Arash do you have a mark IV ? Just to be sure why i see some difference from 7d to mark IV.


Please have a look at http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/control...articleID=3107
in the middle of the page ( AF point expansion )

Maybe CFN III-8-3 is the solution !!!
Arthur Morris doens't explain this setting in his mark IV field guide.
Here at Canon page is explain quite well !
If it function as said from Canon would be FANTASTIC !!!:):):):)

Please all Photographer BIF came here in this thread !!!

[arash_hazeghi]

Marco,

I don't think using extension tube is a good idea for flight, light loss aside, it is more difficult to track birds at such a close distance, you might clip the wings and you will be forced to stop down considerably to fit the bird inside dof which will compromise your SS/ISO noise. the ideal flight distance for me is about 2XMFD or more so I can keep the bird centered in the frame, no camera will track well if bird is close to the border of the frame as opposed to center.

AF micro adjustment shifts focus plain by tiny steps, to achieve maximum sharpness for static focusing, the tolerance of AF mechanism in AI-servo mode for flight shots is larger than the MA range, so it is irrelevant for flight.

I owned 400 f/5.6 for 3 years and 400 DO for a short time (about 2 months) I did not see a difference in AF speed between the two, IMO the best flight lens is 500 f/4 naked which is what I use.

On the 500 I also find that AF will be faster when you set the limiter to 10m-inf or 4.5m-10m as opposed to full (4.5m-inf), so by limiting flight distance (either 4.5m-10m or more than 10m) you will make the AF faster.

Best

Arash

[arash_hazeghi]

Arash do you have a mark IV ? Just to be sure why i see some difference from 7d to mark IV.


Please have a look at http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/control...articleID=3107
in the middle of the page ( AF point expansion )

Maybe CFN III-8-3 is the solution !!!
Arthur Morris doens't explain this setting in his mark IV field guide.
Here at Canon page is explain quite well !
If it function as said from Canon would be FANTASTIC !!!:):):):)

Please all Photographer BIF came here in this thread !!!

Yes Marco, I have a MKIV and a 5D2, I no longer have a 7D the settings that I mentioned are for MK4, 7D has different settings. and I have seen the Canon article, it does explain the functions a little bit, you should also check the 1dMK4 white paper on Canon website which explains things in more depth
http://www.usa.canon.com/uploadedima...20IV%20WP1.pdf

checkout the autofocus chapter, pages 13-24.

But keep in mind that the target audience of this camera are mainly sports' photographers and the guides are primarily written for them, the suggested settings are not necessarily effective for tracking fast and erratically flying birds. As I mentioned CF-III-8-3 (All 45 points) is very unstable and does not yield acceptable results (IMO)

Best

[marco peschiera]

Ok really thanks Arash,

About the delimiter of 4.5 to 10 and 10 to inifnity or 4.5 to inifinity is the rule number 1 !!!
So obviosly i use it at 10 to infinity and on 400 5.6 at 8,5 to infinity.

May i ask you why you sell the 400 DO ??
Which was your impression ?
It wasn't good enought ? Or with the 400 5.6 you could do everythink as well ?

[marco peschiera]

I can't understand this:
>>AF micro adjustment shifts focus plain by tiny steps, to achieve maximum sharpness for static focusing, the tolerance of AF mechanism in AI-servo mode for flight shots is larger than the MA range, so it is irrelevant for flight.

Can you explain why is irrelevant for flight ??
Having the AF set on -20 so you have a completly front focus of 10cm about can be very relevant !!

[marco peschiera]

Dont' agree on:
>>I don't think using extension tube is a good idea for flight, light loss aside, it is more difficult to track birds at such a close distance, you might clip the wings and you will be forced to stop down considerably to fit the bird inside dof which will compromise your SS/ISO noise. the ideal flight distance for me is about 2XMFD or more so I can keep the bird centered in the frame, no camera will track well if bird is close to the border of the frame as opposed to center.

With the 12mm on 400 5.6 you have a reach of 6m to 14m..

having the subject at 10m with or without the 12mm is exactly the same...
The only advantage of 12mm is that if the subject is caming closer ( like 7-8m ) you still can have it on focus while without the 12mm you can't ! ( Or you can but setting 2.3m to infinity the delimiter, slowering the focus aquisition )

I Agree on
>>no camera will track well if bird is close to the border of the frame as opposed to center.

but who say that i want the bird close to the border ???
If i can keep the bird in the middle of the frame at a distance of 7meter the picture is amazing !!
Of course you can don't use the 12mm but the limiting of 3.5 to infinity will slower your AF aquisition.

So ... let's see what's going on !!
Bee eater please came close to me at 6m in flight and stop for few millisecond allowing me to make you a photo !!

Am i speaking with birds ??? I'm ****ed up !

[Alfred Forns]

Hi Marco One point that has not been mentioned is wind? You will have your best chances with favorable wind conditions !!!!! Strong winds with a good sun angle is a good recipe for good flight photography.

[marco peschiera]

Thanks Alfred,
wrote about wind on post n°4
>>Forgot to say that a very important think that can help is the WIND !!!
>>Yes, the wind... if is going in the direction against the bee eater they are going very very slow ( because >>against the wind ) and they are quite easy to take....

Alfred any suggestions about equipment ?
Which lens you prefer for bee eater ?

[marco peschiera]

Suggested by Arash I went again today to have a look on CFN III-8-2 ( So central point with point around )

And yes ! It function very very well ! ( a little better than with all 45 - i still have to understand by how much...)

Thanks Arash

[marco peschiera]

What i find very very useful is today is to change the n°of photo per second.
Today i was shooting at 6 picture a second instead 10 and was really much better !

[marco peschiera]

Actualy i think we shoul investigate more on the point:
3) extension tubes 12mm that slower AF
7) AF micro adjustement set on front focus
8) 400 DO

Anybody have ideas on these feature ?

[Roger Clark]

Actualy i think we shoul investigate more on the point:
3) extension tubes 12mm that slower AF

That and the idea that extension tubes cause light loss. All extension tubes I am aware of have no optics, so there is no light loss from optics. Extension tubes do result in greater magnification, and that magnification will spread the light out more, thus lengthening exposure time. For example, let's say your worked at 10 meters without the extension and 7 meters with. The relevant equation is b = F*a/(a-F) where b= back focal length, F= focal length (at infinity), and a= subject distance. At 7 meters, b=538 mm. At 10 meters, b= 526 mm. That equates to a light reduction of 536/526 squared = 1.038, or about 0.05 stop. Note that the magnification effect is also in play without extension tubes, just that getting closer with extension tubes magnifies the problem. But for the ranges you are working at, the light reduction is negligible.

A larger factor in my experience is that with an extension tube, with the added magnification, changes the rate of change of focus position, but the AF algorithm in the camera does not know about that rate change because it thinks the lens is at a different subject distance. That means focus error and hunting. That will translate to focus errors while tracking a moving subject. Thus BIF with extension tubes will have a higher rate of soft focus even if everything else were perfect. I think you would get higher percentage of sharp images without the use of extension tubes for BIF, and even with the bird is further away I think you would record more detail.

7) AF micro adjustement set on front focus

I think this is compensating for a problem by introducing another problem. Any AF system will lag as the speed of the subject goes up. so this might work. But it would work only for a given situation (bird coming toward you at a certain angle and velocity) As the angle changes and the relative velocity changes, a focus error will become apparent, so it won't work in all situations. Remember to set it back to normal for other, not as fast subjects!

8) 400 DO

I can't help on this one. I've never used the 400 DO.

I have the 500 f4 L IS and 300 f/2.8 L IS. If you read the Canon manual (e.g. the 1D4 manual) f/2.8 lenses have better autofocus with more sensors. Canon also uses the 300 f/2.8 for AF speed testing because the AF is so fast on that lens.

If you have or have access to the 300 f/2.8, I suggest trying it again with the single AF point and trying to keep that AF point on the bird's eye, which I know is extremely difficult on those fast small birds at close range.

Roger