Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Cormorant vs Garibaldi

  1. #1
    Alfred Forns
    Guest

    Default Cormorant vs Garibaldi

    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    Here is a good example of one image I decided to keep, it is a 50% crop and the original is not completely sharp. Was using the 200-400 with a 1.7X and don't think I ever got the af point on the bird itself.

    Like it for just what it is, a cormorant eating a garibaldi, don't know if they go after them often? but the color caught my eye.

    Going back to the crop how much etc, great point by Arash on what different cameras can do as far as quality. The 1DsMk4 should be coming out? at some time and will be interesting to see what happens !!! ... for this I wish I could have open the lens for more shutter speed and even raise the ISO, action lasted a second .. notice the dof from one corner to another .. if that was a full frame the dof would have been more limited.

    My point has been like comparing the capture to a dive .... they have degrees of difficulty ... a reverse 4 ½ in pike position from a three meter springboard is more difficult than a bellyflop ... but now as painful :D:) ... btw pray we don't ever get into difficulty factor for taking pictures !!!

    Comments welcome and much appreciated

    Nikon D300
    200-400 1.7X
    f 8.0 1/250 sec
    ISO 640
    Av +1

  2. #2
    BPN Viewer Dave Leroy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Delta, BC
    Posts
    3,789
    Threads
    380
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    It is amazing what birds will capture and eventually somehow swallow.

    Thanks for the post and explanation Alfred. I had missed your comment about dof in Desmond's post and Arash's comments, so went back and reread. I have a better understanding now of identifying a large crop although still tricky and needs lots of experience.

    The reread lead me to a question which I posed to Arash on Desmond's thread.

  3. #3
    Alfred Forns
    Guest

    Default

    Heading over there Dave Btw I have learned a lot about sensors from this discussion and have a better understanding of what can be done !! ... and in all of these as Arash and Desmond pointed out you need to start with a razor sharp perfect image !!

  4. #4
    Forum Participant
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Posts
    1,353
    Threads
    90
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Very interesting behavior, love the contrast between the red fish and the bird, and the ripple in the water is nice too. Wish that the bird is turning more toward you.

  5. #5
    Super Moderator arash_hazeghi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    San Francisco, California, United States
    Posts
    18,553
    Threads
    1,320
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Wow! that is one big and colorful fish, prey is more interesting than cormi itself!!! great catch Al, they swallow so fast, I tend to miss a lot!


    Very good points by Al, cropping totally depends on how sharp and noisy the original file is, D300 has an older Sony sensor which is relatively noisy so 50% crop is too much at 640 ISO, with a camera like 5DMKII you can get away with much tighter crops at higher ISO.

    here is an example:



    5DMKII + 500 f/4 + 1.4X TC, f/7.1 1/2500sec ISO 1600.
    New! Sony Capture One Pro Guide 2022
    https://arihazeghiphotography.com/Gu.../Sony_C1P.html


    ------------------------------------------------
    Visit my blog
    http://www.arihazeghiphotography.com/blog

  6. #6
    Super Moderator arash_hazeghi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    San Francisco, California, United States
    Posts
    18,553
    Threads
    1,320
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    and this is what the FF was like, it's like a 10% crop :eek:
    New! Sony Capture One Pro Guide 2022
    https://arihazeghiphotography.com/Gu.../Sony_C1P.html


    ------------------------------------------------
    Visit my blog
    http://www.arihazeghiphotography.com/blog

  7. #7
    BPN Viewer
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Boynton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    7,726
    Threads
    640
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    arash, kudos on the processing. top notch. but i have to say, i dont think that's photography. i dont care how many megapixels you have. i know the web presentation looks great, but can you print it? and does it give you the same kind of satisfaction as it would if you had gotten the same bird full frame? it's kind of like playing Tiger Woods 2010. anybody can sit in front of a computer with a joystick and play st andrews, pebble beach, or where ever and shoot a 64, but can you pick up a set of sticks and go out to the real course and do the same? it's just not the same thing. the latter takes a lot more time and discipline. i think the same applies with nature photography.

    i'm not arguing, trying to make anybody look bad or trying to be negative at all. i'm just saying.:)

  8. #8
    Super Moderator arash_hazeghi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    San Francisco, California, United States
    Posts
    18,553
    Threads
    1,320
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by harold davis View Post
    arash, kudos on the processing. top notch. but i have to say, i dont think that's photography. i dont care how many megapixels you have. i know the web presentation looks great, but can you print it? and does it give you the same kind of satisfaction as it would if you had gotten the same bird full frame? it's kind of like playing Tiger Woods 2010. anybody can sit in front of a computer with a joystick and play st andrews, pebble beach, or where ever and shoot a 64, but can you pick up a set of sticks and go out to the real course and do the same? it's just not the same thing. the latter takes a lot more time and discipline. i think the same applies with nature photography.

    i'm not arguing, trying to make anybody look bad or trying to be negative at all. i'm just saying.:)
    Harold, I think what matters is the end result, these images are made in the field from a real bird, they are not generated by the computer so I don't think your analogy is a good one. Sometimes it is not possible to get closer to a bird, so you can't always get full frame, in these cases new technology is definitely there to help you.

    Cropping is just another digital manipulation, just like cloning, NR, etc. what matters is the end result, if you can produce high quality photos of birds that are aesthetically and technically sound, I don't think it matters how you arrive at it.

    Of course for submitting photos to a contest, all rules for cropping, cloning etc. should be followed :)
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 05-31-2010 at 02:41 PM.
    New! Sony Capture One Pro Guide 2022
    https://arihazeghiphotography.com/Gu.../Sony_C1P.html


    ------------------------------------------------
    Visit my blog
    http://www.arihazeghiphotography.com/blog

  9. #9
    BPN Viewer
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Boynton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    7,726
    Threads
    640
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    i hear you, arash, and agree to a certain extent, but the people that make the rules for the contests must have a reason for not allowing huge crops to be allowed. it's about the skill level it takes to get the shot in the camera. i chose BPN to learn to do just that. i have a long way to go, i know. but, i enjoy the challenge of doing it that way. i hope you can understand my view.

  10. #10
    Super Moderator arash_hazeghi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    San Francisco, California, United States
    Posts
    18,553
    Threads
    1,320
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by harold davis View Post
    i hear you, arash, and agree to a certain extent, but the people that make the rules for the contests must have a reason for not allowing huge crops to be allowed. it's about the skill level it takes to get the shot in the camera. i chose BPN to learn to do just that. i have a long way to go, i know. but, i enjoy the challenge of doing it that way. i hope you can understand my view.
    Good points Harlod,

    Contents generally have rules against not just cropping, but also cloning, blurring of BG and other enhancements, that's why they ask for RAW files. Of course the more you can get right in the camera the better.
    What I was saying is that cropping is no different than other digital manipulations. It makes tracking a bit easier and reduces chances of clipping the wings etc. but at the same time focus and exposure need be perfect. In contrast when a bird is large in the frame, errors in focus and noise will be covered up by the time you downsample the photo to 1024 pixels, so you can get away with photos that are to some degree soft and noisy, but if you want to crop there is no room for error, that's why people often get bad results when they crop.

    Getting close to a bird is not necessarily a skill, sometimes it is, sometimes it is not as it just happens that birds are close/friendly :) Some contests also have rules regarding natural settings and use of blind/audio for attacking the birds.

    I think for most people what matters is producing a nice photo, the way each person arrives there is a personal choice.

    Thanks for ideas and input
    New! Sony Capture One Pro Guide 2022
    https://arihazeghiphotography.com/Gu.../Sony_C1P.html


    ------------------------------------------------
    Visit my blog
    http://www.arihazeghiphotography.com/blog

  11. #11
    Lance Peters
    Guest

    Default

    Interesting discussion!!
    Can see both sides of the story - and certainly do crop myself!!
    My only point to add would be - the inclusion of the detail - THAT it is a large crop - in the posting info!!!

    Gotta remember this is ETL - Without this info being posted IMHO it gives a unreasonable expectation to new members - they see these great images really close up and aspire to create the same thing and get dis-heartened when they cant - no matter what lens they have.
    Think if its not included in the tech details -its a little mis leading.

    Just my two cents - And ill put my money were my mouth is and include it with the tech details of my posts in future.

  12. #12
    Fabs Forns
    Guest

    Default

    Getting close to a bird may not require special skills, but tracking one in the air with a super telephoto versus a wider focal length certainly does, and if we take to cropping heavily, those skills are most certainly not needed.
    Capture everything with an easy to track 200mm, crop it heavily and you are passing your skills as ones that are not there, IMO.
    Photography has not been till now about pixels, but about skills. Unfortunately, I see a trend towards the former.

  13. #13
    Super Moderator arash_hazeghi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    San Francisco, California, United States
    Posts
    18,553
    Threads
    1,320
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabs Forns View Post
    Getting close to a bird may not require special skills, but tracking one in the air with a super telephoto versus a wider focal length certainly does, and if we take to cropping heavily, those skills are most certainly not needed.
    Capture everything with an easy to track 200mm, crop it heavily and you are passing your skills as ones that are not there, IMO.
    Photography has not been till now about pixels, but about skills. Unfortunately, I see a trend towards the former.

    Fabs is right, Tracking is more difficult for sure, 200mm lens is a tough call!!! not sure can get anything useful out of cropping a 200mm even with the MKII, I always use the 500 + TC (700mm) to track, farther than that would need a 800mm with TC, not sure if I can hand hold well and AF will suffer at f/8. So cropping when there is no other choice :) otherwise minimum crop (most of my images are 60-70% at least, sometimes need to add canvas)

    Above was just an example what could be done with good sensor!!! Not an endorsement of photography doctrine :D
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 05-31-2010 at 04:24 PM.
    New! Sony Capture One Pro Guide 2022
    https://arihazeghiphotography.com/Gu.../Sony_C1P.html


    ------------------------------------------------
    Visit my blog
    http://www.arihazeghiphotography.com/blog

  14. #14
    BPN Viewer
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    1,797
    Threads
    248
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Hi Everyone, I have two cents...........

    I've been waiting for this discussion and its a good one.

    I am fairly new to photography and brand new to Bird photography. I must admit at times I do feel discouraged that I'll never be able to post the kind of wonderful images I see on this forum. Lance makes me feel a ton better, and I agree that when considerable cropping or cloning is done it should be stated.

    I personnally believe that if you are shooting for own pleasure and you disclose what you did in the way of alteration, others can simply enjoy the end result or not.

    I also believe that you shouldn't set the bar too high for beginners or those on the learning curve, or most will fail from simple discouragement. My wife said it best......when we took our kids for their first fishing trip we took them to a well stocked lake and did anything to get them a first day catch. I see nothing wrong with starting with a short lens (and crop) to capture birds in flight.............I can tell you I'm thrilled just a get something visible in the frame. I'm also learning exposure, proper lighting, composition et al...but first let me get a bird in the fame..........anywhere in the frame! As my confidence and skill grows so will the length of my
    lens and the size of the bird in the frame.

    All that said, for you pros and seriously skilled photographers, keep having at it, and let me know if you come to a solution. But Please, dislose if you manipulated the original! Your peers can rightly so, judge as they wish. And us beginners will have something to hope for...........

    My two cents,

    Jay Sheinfield

  15. #15
    BPN Viewer
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,940
    Threads
    288
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lance Peters View Post
    Gotta remember this is ETL - Without this info being posted IMHO it gives a unreasonable expectation to new members - they see these great images really close up and aspire to create the same thing and get dis-heartened when they cant - no matter what lens they have.
    Right on, Lance !

  16. #16
    BPN Viewer
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,940
    Threads
    288
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by harold davis View Post
    i know the web presentation looks great, but can you print it?
    But, Harold, it depends on what size of the print you want though. Using the data here:

    http://www.design215.com/toolbox/megapixels.php

    If a 6mp camera can make a good 10x7 print without crop, then I think if you have a camera of 60mp, you can cropp off 90% of the image and still could make a good print out of what's left (if my math is correct).

    does it give you the same kind of satisfaction as it would if you had gotten the same bird full frame?
    Probably not :)

  17. #17
    BPN Viewer
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,940
    Threads
    288
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    [snip] 200mm lens is a tough call!!! [snip]
    It really depends on how close is your target, IMO. I have shot BIF with a 17-50 zoom on a D300 and don't have to crop much out of it to get my image.

  18. #18
    BPN Viewer
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,940
    Threads
    288
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Sheinfield View Post
    I personnally believe that if you are shooting for own pleasure and you disclose what you did in the way of alteration, others can simply enjoy the end result or not.
    I read this somewhere and I'm paraphrasing here: "Photograph to please yourself first."

  19. #19
    Alfred Forns
    Guest

    Default

    Desmond You are mixing things that should be separate.

    First of all we all have different skill levels and suggesting a beginner tries to capture a difficult flight shot with very little crop is unrealistic, they should go ahead and do the best they can an enjoy photography, enjoyment is what is all about.

    I'm talking about a "top photographer" posting a huge crop and getting praises for the image? In my opinion it lessens the impact of the image quality aside.

    I don't think we will get to a consensus as to how much is too much. I do feel a responsibility to point out the differences and misrepresentations. Perhaps we should just say how much of the original image has been posted? No different than disclosing mayor stick removal? Hate to confuse a beginner that is unable to tell a big crop.

  20. #20
    BPN Viewer
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,940
    Threads
    288
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfred Forns View Post
    Desmond You are mixing things that should be separate.
    :confused:

    First of all we all have different skill levels and suggesting a beginner tries to capture a difficult flight shot with very little crop is unrealistic, they should go ahead and do the best they can an enjoy photography, enjoyment is what is all about.
    Agreed.

    I'm talking about a "top photographer" posting a huge crop and getting praises for the image?
    I knew.

    I do feel a responsibility to point out the differences and misrepresentations.
    Agreed as well.


    Perhaps we should just say how much of the original image has been posted?
    My low flight seagull shot is 35% of the full frame original. The reason that I took the shot with only a 105mm was I only had that lens with me and I had nothing else interesting to photograph at that moment ( I use the 105 as a walk-around lens on the streets). Just practising BIF shot was what I had in mind. Went home, zoomed in, checked the sharpness, looked pretty good, and decided to see if I could make something out of it...perhaps for a 4x6 print... and the rest is history :)

  21. #21
    BPN Viewer
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Auranagabad ( MS ) India
    Posts
    12,833
    Threads
    766
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Hmmmmmm , Interesting discussions as I have never shooted on slides ,My question to all here is

    In slide days how cropping was done or was not possible ,
    BTW excellent capture Alfred , fish is realy popping up
    TFS

  22. #22
    Super Moderator arash_hazeghi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    San Francisco, California, United States
    Posts
    18,553
    Threads
    1,320
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshad Barve View Post
    Hmmmmmm , Interesting discussions as I have never shooted on slides ,My question to all here is

    In slide days how cropping was done or was not possible ,
    BTW excellent capture Alfred , fish is realy popping up
    TFS
    Harshad, it is possible to crop negatives too, when you make prints in the darkroom, you can adjust the height of the negative retainer so only parts of the negative is exposed on the photo sensitive paper. crop, dodge and burn is three things you could do with film in the darkroom.
    New! Sony Capture One Pro Guide 2022
    https://arihazeghiphotography.com/Gu.../Sony_C1P.html


    ------------------------------------------------
    Visit my blog
    http://www.arihazeghiphotography.com/blog

  23. #23
    Alfred Forns
    Guest

    Default

    Desmond I never had a problem with your gull? Found the top shot interesting and usually prefer it to any other.

    It was posted for what it was and even mentioned it was a crop . Perfect !!!!!!

    My problem is with misrepresentation which is 100% opposite to what you did !! If all post were like yours .... we would not be having this discussion :) My garibaldi is a 50% crop, I took it, I said it and I'm proud of the image. Posted and explained the reason !

    Another good example is an oystercatcher in flight ... took me many tries to get one of those speeding bullets to take up a large chunk of the frame. Most of the ones I had were 75% crop approximately so I just left them as a record shot to enjoy for myself, if I had chosen to post one I would say it was a 75% crop.... but I don't like posting large crops. After many attempts in many trips I finally got one that was 70% or more of the frame and sharp. Gave me satisfaction and was proud of it ... the other was like Mick Jagger's song ..... no satisfaction !!! :)

  24. #24
    BPN Viewer
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,940
    Threads
    288
    Thank You Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfred Forns View Post
    Desmond I never had a problem with your gull? Found the top shot interesting and usually prefer it to any other.

    It was posted for what it was and even mentioned it was a crop . Perfect !!!!!!
    Thanks for the further clarification, Al ;)


    My garibaldi is a 50% crop, I took it, I said it and I'm proud of the image. Posted and explained the reason !
    You know what, I've adopted your 50% guideline. I'll still make little prints out of those larger crops though :D:D

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Web Analytics