Comments in Avian (please vote)

[Fabs Forns]

I have noticed as of lately that there are a lot of people that start threads (post a pic to get critique) and are either shy or feel unqualified, or why not, lazy to leave feedback on others.
We moderators have been discussing this, and while some think that one comment that covers everything should be enough, others think that a one liner agreeing or disagreeing with the critique still has a lot of value.

Before we take the pulse of what YOU would like to see as comments to your image, let me remind you again that a ratio of 5 comments to others for every image you post in considered the average expected and the minimum courtesy to your fellow posters. We are all qualified to comment as long as we have eyes and taste. Many times a fresh, untrained eye sees more that we lost in techs.

What do you prefer?

For those who do not feel qualified to critique, here some suggestions:

http://birdphotographers.net/forums/...ad.php?t=57601

[Stu Bowie]

Hi Fabs, this topic has probably been discussed on many an occasion. Straight to the point - if one posts an image, share your duties by posting comments on others. What I would like to see on mine - a mixture of varied comments, as different folks will notice different things. Sometimes we all hope for plenty of comments, but maybe on the day, the image is just not hitting the score. I dont lose any sleep over it, and move on to improve where I didnt succeed.

[Kiran Khanzode]

I don't shoot many birds but I do want to extend an observation of the Mammals section that I have for BPN. I notice that there's plenty of moderators, but they are rarely seen in any user threads (Except Harshad Barve, I must say). I think the change you are suggesting here needs to start from the ground up, from the owners/moderators ---> to the end users.

As for the poll, I don't care for the number of comments (never an indicator of success for me). Number of comments can vary based on 'n' number of reasons.

I would rather have 1 unique meaningful comment that covers a different thing/suggestion/+ve/-ve (from users) rather than 20 users telling me the same thing :-).

[Jay Gould]

While we all like the attaboys, attaboy/great image/successful capture/etc without more does not, IMHO, fulfill the purpose for BPN in that they are not educational comments. At my level of photography, no matter how good/great the image it can ALWAYS be made better and I am here because I want to become a better photographer. I believe there are lots of YOU that can help ME become better. Thanks in advance for teaching me to become a better photographer.

[Bob Pelkey]

I'm guilty of viewing a lot of images and not commenting on them. I had the impression that positive comments were not welcome until I did further investigation of previous posts that indicated you simply need to say why you like an image instead of simply stating "nice shot."

[Todd Frost]

We all need our ego stroked from time to time no matter who we are. That said there are many sites to give you that, this site was set up as more of a educational site first and foremost and it has been very beneficial to myself and I'm sure to many others. I believe pats on the back as well as critiques are important, without the occasional pat one can be discouraged, without the meaningful critique one may not learn. I for one appreciate the comments received on my images (may not always be what I want to hear) and I hope my comments on others images are received in the spirit of learning as well. We all see thing in a different light and when we feel we cannot learn from someone else we need to take a closer look and check the ego.
Todd

[Deborah Hanson]

As I am relatively new to the forum and digital photography, I am in need of comments that help me with improvement of composition and technique. Although I am glad to hear that someone likes what I have taken (who doesn't), what I really appreciate are the comments that explain what I could've done while taking the photo to improve from square one.
The question for me becomes if I am qualified to do that with others photos - no, I don't think I am. I do comment tho and when I comment I do try to add what I like (line, flow, movement, etc). However, I don't know if that's what others are looking for. Also, when I comment about little things that distract from the image for me, I am concerned that I am contradicting what is an acceptable practice that I haven't learned yet.

Deb

[Fabs Forns]

Thanks all for your opinons.

Deb,

I have brought up an older thread and see if it helps you with what to look for, both as to what to comment on and on what to strive in your photos:

http://birdphotographers.net/forums/...ad.php?t=57601

Have a great day!

[Deborah Hanson]

Fabs-
Thanks for link. I had read before and found it helpful. However, I still feel that my comments are superficial (sharpness, detail, etc) because I don't possess the depth of knowledge of photography that many of you have. Also, I am currently reading both of the books by Artie and looking for the others that have been recommended.

I decided to use this forum because I was hoping that the comments would have a constructive aspect (not just 'great shot' or 'you're the man/woman'). For example, the comments that you made on my last post (they were very much appreciated) really helped me sort through some of the technical stuff that will help me (hopefully) make better images out-of-the-camera as opposed to shooting hundreds and coming home and hoping for one that can be fixed in photoshop.

With that said, I do continue to try to comment within my limited range.

Thanks again
Deb

[Dennis Zaebst]

Fabs, I am quite new to this forum, but I admit I am guilty of doing exactly what you say, posting and not commenting on others' posts. I'll try to do better in the future, and thanks for the timely reminder.
Dennis

[Bryan Hix]

If you want to see if your "ratio" is on track or not, go to your profile page and look under your statistics tab. Look at the number of threads you started and divide that into the total. It's a rough snapshot because maybe it isn't all photo critiques, but at least you can tell if you need to step up and comment some more.

My expectations of posting a photo here is an honest critique. If it really needs work or isn't appealing to you, then say so. If there are good things and improvements that could be made, mention both. If everything is covered in one post, great (unlikely, but great if it happens). It does means a lot to me when a moderator makes a comment. You might not know exactly what to comment on technically if you are new or just don't know how to communicate it, but who cares? Say you like the perch, or that the snow makes the photo, or that a leaf is distracting to your eye. Just give your opinion regardless. If I see 10+ comments and they cover everything, I personally move on to one without as many comments.

Make it a habit to post something, then comment on 4 or 5 others.:)

[Jeff Parker]

I don't feel it's constructive to say "I agree with what everybody else said". Yet, unless I catch a post before more than a couple of comments have been made, that's generally my sentiment.

[paul leverington]

Maybe if people DON"T read what others have posted first, their own comments will be pure from their own mind and heart. Also they won't have to worry about whether or not they are repeating. A lot of times people don't post because they figure someone else has already said what they would have said. But there's power in ten people saying the same thing over one or two.

Then there are comments from the very experienced who no longer worry about their own egos on any particular shot and are after making a shot better in any way possible. I have the same attitude as Jay does above in that whatever someone sees--tell me about it please! What I'm saying is we all need the encouragement sure--but the beginner really needs it more. People who know they can get good stuff are looking for that thorough introspective in their pictures. Thats why Arties comments mean a lot. You sense the honesty very distanced from any pride factor. It's serious artistic discussion. I value that and definitely want to see more.

A one liner is fine if it conveys at least what it made the viewer feel. Even a totally new rookie can do that. So if they have no idea why a shot works or doesn't, they definitely know if it made them FEEL something.

Taking an image apart and discussing the constituent parts is the best. For those who are tough enough to take it, advertising they want that might get people to be more forthright and honest about what they think. But if people don't know if that would be welcomed or know for a fact that the person who posted an image is overly sensitive in general, they'll most likely say little.

I think the person who posts an image--if they truly are looking for improvement--has more a responsiblity to express to everyone that they REALLY want folks to pick apart the shot. Just saying comments are welcome is rather diluted from commonality and leaves others not sure how much they meant it.

Paul

[Jay Gould]

I have the same attitude as Jay does above in that whatever someone sees--tell me about it please! I have the same attitude as Jay does above in that whatever someone sees--tell me about it please!

Great minds :eek: think alike! :p :D

[paul leverington]

Hee-hee!!

[Bryan Hix]

The amount of people who have voted in this particular thread as a percent of those who have viewed this thread, comes out to just below 8%. If you look at most posts in the first week of posting, it comes out to about 4-7% comments versus views. I just did a quick sample (about 25 posts) to pull those numbers, but from what I see if you can get 5% of people that view your thread to actually comment in the first week or so, you can feel pretty good. If members or moderators feel that there should be a higher ratio of comments versus views, then I would suggest diving into the numbers to look for trends to figure out how to increase the amount of comments. If it's a big concern, why not just calculate each member's ratio of started threads to comments and put that number on each of our profiles for all to see (it's pretty much there already)? I guess it depends on what the goal of this site is for the folks who manage it.

[Rob Miner]

Why are we placing bird picts on this forum? Are saying that each is an artful expression? A good commercial rendition? Is this one a pict that was intended to be a "wall hanger?" or just a bird I ran into this A.M. and thought you might want to look at it.

Having a meaningful statement by each member for the picts submission to this forum would be greatly appreciated and alter how I would critiques a given pict.

As a learning member, I would appreciate direction to make my next pictures better. Do you see a conformation no, no or the over use of Photoshop? etc.

After all is said, I really like this forum, I have learned much from each of you as members and would like to Thank you for your help. Special kudos for the forum publishers and forum moderators.

Rob.............

[Richard Stern]

I too am guilty of this, and when I think of it, I try to comment on others' work. I too agree with Jay's comments. But I have another related issue - a fellow photographer has told me he's not going to subscribe to BPN because it's the same people over and over again who post images and comments, and it seems cliquey. To some extent I agree with him, although personally I learn a huge amount from the forum, and intend to stay and participate. But I see there are 7791 members at the moment, and it certainly seems to me that there are only a few dozen regular contibutors. Isn't that a rather low ratio, and couldn't more "lurkers" be encouraged to participate more actively?

Richard

[Jim Fenton]

What I'd like to see is for folks to really start looking at the images they are critiquing and instead of giving glowing comments, really, really look at them.

People probably don't like my comments cause I try to nick pick real things that possibly could improve an image...just as if it were mine.

By all means, we all miss things and in most cases could improve on certain aspects...I wish folks would make believe they were processing the images and really think about them.

I don't know how many times I've seen "couldn't get any better than this" when there are obvious things which could be improved on.

I get a tad nervous commenting on some of the big guns images but...we're all supposed to be here to learn and help one another improve...correct?

Honestly..it's almost to the point where you can't expect thoughtful critique and when you do so yourself, it immediately gets lost in the "great shot...couldn't be better!" posts.....so is it even worth posting????

[Jean Chang]

... But I see there are 7791 members at the moment, and it certainly seems to me that there are only a few dozen regular contibutors. Isn't that a rather low ratio, and couldn't more "lurkers" be encouraged to participate more actively?

Richard

I was thinking the same thing. It's really disheartening to post a photo, and see 50 or 60 views, but no comments. Okay, I know that "Great shot!" doesn't cut it, but even a sentence as to what's good or needs work. (But that makes me afraid that someone may look at my shot and say it could be improved by deleting it. :D)

Jean

[Kurtis Diffenbaugh]

I started posting on here because I love the thoughtful critiques as opposed to some other sites where there are no real critiques....that being said sometimes it's difficult for me to express why I do or don't like a shot, which in the past often led me to say nothing, I am now making an effort to at least say something.

Also, sometimes it's difficult to make it on here consistently, but I am changing that, re-prioritizing and making my visits more regular.

Thank you for the link (...Art of Critique...), I will read it once I have a moment.

[Kaustubh Deshpande]

Lot of good points discussed here.

Personally, I dont mind repetitions. I think there is a logical reason why number of comments is less compared to number of views.
(A) At BPN, we are discouraging plain 'superb shot' comments. which is a good thing IMO and I prefer it to be that way. Am sure lot of us do and that is why we hang out here.
(B) Because of point(A), people write good descriptive stuff.....appreciative as well as suggestive. In 7-8 comments lot of stuff is covered( compared to say 7-8 comments on many other forums) So after that, lot of folks who look at the photo must be thinking they dont have anything different to add....and hence moving on to other photos.

If one were to look at 'number of words written per posted photo', am sure BPN will be much better than many other forums.

As Fabs said, it would be good if everyone posts a 5-6 comments per photo that they post....without being shy.

Just my 2 cents.

[Kurtis Diffenbaugh]

Kaustubh nailed it with some other things I have thought but forgot to say.

[Mark Young]

I'm very new to this forum and I'ld like to add a couple of points, hopefully they will be of some use.

As a person new to photography and new to this site, I've tried to adhere to the 10 comments per image posted rule. But due to my current very basic level of technical ability and understanding, I don't feel that I can offer too many constructive comments.

At the moment my comments are mostly just focused on the subject and the composition. Because I feel that these 2 criteria are the ones that I understand and appreciate the most. Other technical aspects that I don't really understand very well, or know much about like apeture, exposure, metering, ISO settings etc I don't comment on as I'm not very confident or experienced in those areas.

That means that any comments I make, I try and do so only with those area's I feel I understand and which I am comfortable enough with to comment on, which is a very limited range, for the time being.

My personal preferences would be to have many comments rather than to have only 1 precise one. I've noticed in some threads the difference of opinion on a particular element of an image has generated quite good and helpful discussions.

[Jackie Schuknecht]

I try to make five comments for each pic I post. I feel comfortable in OOTB, ETL, and a bit in macro. When it comes to avian I feel that everybody is so technically advanced above me that I don't feel qualified to make too many astute observations. I have read your link, so all I can do is really say if I like the comp, lighting, pose, all the pretty basic stuff, which I don't feel is really helpful to very many people in Avian.

[Jim Fenton]

This almost exact comment seems to crop up regularly lately....and as seen in this thread..

http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ad.php?t=58839

"personally I wouldn't change a thing".

Seriously....I think that most would agree that there has never been and will never be an image posted here by anyone which couldn't have some improvement made to it.

If everything were that perfect, this site wouldn't even need to exist since nobody would have anything to learn.

[Grace Scalzo]

When I post an image and four or five people say "I agree with the above critique", then I have to ask myself, is there really something to consider, or is the lemming principle at work? 9 times out of 10 it is the former, so I think that a one-liner can be helpful. Same with composition. If several people chime in with suggestions, then even if I don't agree with their ideas, I revisit my image and see what it may be that is causing discomfort. I do agree that the ratio of views to comments needs to go up. And nothing wrong with admiring an image and sharing our compliments, either.

[Kaustubh Deshpande]

This almost exact comment seems to crop up regularly lately....and as seen in this thread..

http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ad.php?t=58839

"personally I wouldn't change a thing".

Seriously....I think that most would agree that there has never been and will never be an image posted here by anyone which couldn't have some improvement made to it.

If everything were that perfect, this site wouldn't even need to exist since nobody would have anything to learn.

Jim, I am afraid I have to respectfully disagree with you here. IMO every post in every photo need not have suggestions. I certainly dont think that is the expectation here. As long as the poster articulates what he liked, it is within the guidelines. And the entire post was as follows:

"To my eye you have perfect exposure, and I love the environmental comp in this shot. Personally I wouldn't change a thing."

I learnt something from that comment( knowing what other folks liked is as important as knowing what they did not like, I think)....as I did from your comment. I was not going to reply to this as I might come across as defending my own photo...but believe me I am not doing that. I am going to take your suggestion and will take a second look at the sharpness on the bird. Same with black details and yellow highlights. really appreciated.