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Thread: 500mm+TC Image Comparisons

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    Default 500mm+TC Image Comparisons

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    Note: I Reshot the graphics (now it's version 3) and have replaced the old one. I've also changed the related text. The remake was taken at 9 meters distance from the target.

    To learn more about the issue of usable TC combos, I made a systematic comparison of the various combinations of TC's with the Canon EOS 500mm f/4 and a Canon EOS 1D Mark III body. The rig was mounted on a Wimberley II head/ Gitzo 3541LS and rebalanced for each lens combo and locked down. I shot from a sitting position with the tripod legs retracted except for the largest segment, and set the tripod legs to a wide stance to increase rigidity of the mount. I set the camera to a 2-second shutter delay with mirror lockup to avoid variations in my holding technique and reduce mechanical vibration. The IS was at setting 2 and was allowed to stabilize before pressing the shutter release.

    My intention was to get an idea of the optimum combination for maximum reach and image quality. I varied the ISO settings in order to keep the shutter speed settings at 1/1000. Effective aperture varied depending on the combination used. All images were made at a distance of 9m from the target. I used a Speedlight 580 II in sync mode at +2/3 comp with flash extender.

    My in-camera sharpness setting was level 3, and I used the "shade" WB setting. Each image was collected in RAW format and transferred to CS4, where exposures were equalized approximately, and images cropped to the URC of the $2 bill. The crops were pasted to a new canvas with identifying labels (upper row in the graphic). I enlarged copies of the 500mm, 500mm+1.4x and 500+2.0x images to dimensions equal to those of the 500mm+stacked converter image for comparison (lower row of graphic). Finally, for BPN posting, the graphic had to be reduced to 60% of its size.

    Observations:
    1. At their respective 100% crops (bottom row), the bare 500mm lens, not surprisingly, delivers the sharpest, but smallest image.

    2. However, for prints enlarged to equal size (upper row), the 500mm+2.0+1.4 TC combination produces the greater resolution because it was formed by a greater number of pixels on the sensor. To increase the image from the 500mm the same dimensions as the 100% crop image of the stacked TC combo, the 500mm image had to be enlarged to 2x1.4x100 = 280%, considerably exceeding its pixel limitations, and resulting in the fuzziness you see here.

    3. In the stacked TC combo, IQ does suffer from the increased number of optical elements. A close look at the right edges of the "2" also reveals an increasing amount of chromatic aberration -- evidenced by the red/green halo. This effect is progessively more noticeable as TC elements are added.

    4. Adding TC's requires strong light to keep high shutter speeds for the 800, 1000, or 1600mm focal lengths because of the decreased effective apertures. Longer exposures combined with long focal length increases the risk of blurring from equipment shake and subject movement. Solid steadiness techniques are essential.

    5. For an active subject (like an Acorn Woodpecker), take into consideration the difficulties of quickly relocating and refocusing with stacked TC's when the bird suddenly flies to a different tree.

    6. On the 1DM3, all sensors will work with the 500mm and 500mm+1.4x combos, but only the central sensor will operate with the 2.0x or stacked TC combos. The AF response is much slower as well -- a disadvantage when working with active subjects.

    If you're not yet ready to invest your life's savings in a 600 or 800, the best IQ is achieved by getting close enough to your subject to achieve the crop/composition you want in-camera (wouldn't that be nice!). When that's not possible, perhaps my $2 bill experiment will help you make a more informed decision about the compromises you'll need to make. I've learned a lot by just going through this exercise -- particularly that I have plenty of room for improvement in my sharpness techniques.
    Last edited by Craig Markham; 02-06-2010 at 09:07 PM. Reason: Replaced graphic, updated text -- again, v3

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    Super Moderator arash_hazeghi's Avatar
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    Thanks for the post Craig, it's a pity the bill is so small in 100% crops (too far from the bill or maybe the crops got resized when you uploaded?) it's really hard to see the fine detail and also it appears to me that the 1.4X TC sample has some camera shake.

    I did a similar test with 7D but with 1.4X TC only, see this thread : http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ad.php?t=55413

    and I found that sharpness didn't degrade much with the 1.4, the difference is even more subtle with a large pixel camera like 1DMKIII. I saw a bit of increase in CA though. I look forward to testing the 2X as well. For me it will be the AF speed which will determine if I will user the converter all the time or not, as for 1.4X IQ seems to be very good and the 7D itself will make up for the 2X convector.

    Where do you get $2 bills BTW :) ?
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 02-05-2010 at 10:34 PM.
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    Axel Hildebrandt
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    They don't look very sharp. Have you tried to microadjust the Mark III? With 500 and 1.4x TC, I had to go to +4 for best results. Without TC, there was no microadjustment necessary.

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    Thank you for your thoughts, gentlemen.

    I've replaced the graphic (see above) with a new image, produced with a more streamlined, less image-degrading process. This further reveals some faults in my tripod technique (thanks for pointing that out in the 1.4x shot, Arash), and possibly, as Axel mentioned, a need for microadjustment.

    Arash, I intentionally made the images at a distance from the target that would simulate some of my long shots in the field. Of course that arrangement is more sensitive to camera shake. I created the equally-dimensioned row of images (essentially digital zooms) - so that the details could be compared within the BPN image limits.

    I collected the $2 bill when it was issued, and stored it flat, so there are no wrinkles. Not many in circulation anymore.
    Last edited by Craig Markham; 02-06-2010 at 03:13 AM.

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    Craig- if possible I would re-shoot using flash and any other technique to completely eliminate camera-shake, which I think is affecting the IQ of some/all the test images to some degree. In tests like this I use locked-down tripod, cable release, mirror lockup or Liveview, timed shutter release (10s) and I turn IS off.
    Last edited by John Chardine; 02-06-2010 at 06:32 AM.

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    I agree with John. The 1.4x image in particular shows a smear up and down, but all seem a little soft.

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    BPN Viewer Jeff Cashdollar's Avatar
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    Agree, all seem on the soft side, suggest use some of Axel/John's suggestions and rework test.

    Good ideal Craig.

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    Lifetime Member Jim Neiger's Avatar
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    The stacked TC images were not made at F8. They were made at F11 inspite of what the exif data says. To equalize your test you need to use F11 for all of the images.
    Jim Neiger - Kissimmee, Florida

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neiger View Post
    The stacked TC images were not made at F8. They were made at F11 inspite of what the exif data says. To equalize your test you need to use F11 for all of the images.
    Jim,
    That is certainly one valid way to do the test, but what that means is that with each TC combination, a different sized aperture will be used. It is equally good test (but a different test) to test wide open, so constant aperture diameter. After all, we do use our telephoto lenses wide open a lot. I have detected a small improvement in sharpness on my 500 f/4 if I stop down 1/3 stop. So, for example, with a 1.4x TC, I'll sometimes work at f/6.3 unless I really need the speed or shallow DOF.

    Roger

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    Lifetime Member Jim Neiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnclark View Post
    Jim,
    That is certainly one valid way to do the test, but what that means is that with each TC combination, a different sized aperture will be used. It is equally good test (but a different test) to test wide open, so constant aperture diameter. After all, we do use our telephoto lenses wide open a lot. I have detected a small improvement in sharpness on my 500 f/4 if I stop down 1/3 stop. So, for example, with a 1.4x TC, I'll sometimes work at f/6.3 unless I really need the speed or shallow DOF.

    Roger
    I wasn't really commenting on the validity of the test, I was pointing out that the tester didn't get what he thought he got which was F8 for all of the tests. I'm not too keen on controlled tests with subjects I wouldn't otherwise photograph. I like to compare lots of similar images that I have made in the field. It's the real world tests that matter to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neiger View Post
    I wasn't really commenting on the validity of the test, I was pointing out that the tester didn't get what he thought he got which was F8 for all of the tests. I'm not too keen on controlled tests with subjects I wouldn't otherwise photograph. I like to compare lots of similar images that I have made in the field. It's the real world tests that matter to me.
    I certainly agree with Roger's and your comments. True, the EXIF data ignore the presence of the 2nd TC when they're stacked. I knew that I had to be losing 3 f-stops with the stacked TC's, but neglected until my current update (above) to include that number in my chart data. Thanks for the heads-up. Regarding apertures, I consciously used the max apertures for each combo to simulate typical field use, as Roger suggested. As he said, it's just a different test (from one in which the apertures used are all f/11). For the flat target I used, DOF shouldn't be a significant factor in IQ, as long as the AF is accurate -- and I was testing for that for calibration purposes. A moderately reduced aperture can improve IQ when light conditions permit by reducing peripheral lens aberrations.

    I'm with you on preferring to field test in the real world; shooting $2 bills is pure tedium, but found it instructive on this rainy day. I used the opportunity to recheck my AF microadjustments and improved my 1.4x setting.

    Thanks to you and all for your helpful comments and ideas.

    --Craig
    Last edited by Craig Markham; 02-06-2010 at 09:40 PM.

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    Note that for 1D cameras, stacked TCs will still autofocus (I've used it many times).

    One disadvantage of the test on this page is the up-sampling comparison. Yet another way to compare the image quality so you don't resample is to move the distance to the target in proportion to the focal length. Here is how I did that test:
    http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/...ens-sharpness/

    Roger

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    The new crops are much more clear:), If the focus was perfect for all of these shots you don't gain anything by stacking converters relative to 2X only. The crop with stacked TC has no extra detail compared to the the 2X that I can see, but it has a lot more CA. Did you use regular AF mode or LV AF for this test? Usually LV AF is more accurate for static target like the bill although it seems that focus was correct for all of the crops.
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 02-06-2010 at 10:56 PM.
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    More what i expected :) thanks for redoing them.
    Rob.

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    Am I the only one who thinks the naked 500 looks the worse of the bunch ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Tracy View Post
    Am I the only one who thinks the naked 500 looks the worse of the bunch ?
    Yes, but that is because it is, as far as resolving detail on the subject, a shorter focal length, and that is exactly as expected. But the "naked" 500 is very sharp, otherwise it would not have such wonderful images with the TCs.

    Roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    The new crops are much more clear:), If the focus was perfect for all of these shots you don't gain anything by stacking converters relative to 2X only. The crop with stacked TC has no extra detail compared to the the 2X that I can see, but it has a lot more CA. Did you use regular AF mode or LV AF for this test? Usually LV AF is more accurate for static target like the bill although it seems that focus was correct for all of the crops.
    Thanks, Arash, I went back to the original image I made before downsizing it for the BPN posting and verified that the stacked TC still appears to give little improvement over the 2x alone, as you observed. On top of this, I think that the CA, slow AF response and slow exposure speed of the stacked TC seriously limits its usefulness. I did use regular AF, not LV AF. I normally don't use LV, so saw no reason to use it here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rnclark View Post
    Note that for 1D cameras, stacked TCs will still autofocus (I've used it many times).

    One disadvantage of the test on this page is the up-sampling comparison. Yet another way to compare the image quality so you don't resample is to move the distance to the target in proportion to the focal length.
    Roger
    Roger, thank you for the link to your lens sharpness tests. I've been following with interest your posts on sharpness and noise for some time now, and appreciate your work.

    Before I posted my "$2 test shots" for this thread on TC's, I initially varied my sensor-to-target distances so that the $2 bill filled the full width of the image for each combination, in effect similar to the procedure you described in your lens tests. However, I was more interested in simulating field conditions in which I would be unable to change my shooting distance appreciably. I decided it would be more useful to me to display the results for a fixed distance, with the target image size varying accordingly. I wanted to get an idea of the "IQ cost/benefit" to help me decide which combination would yield the best results from a fixed-distance position.

    As we all know, the longer the focal length of the combination, the larger will be the maximum size of the printable image of the target without "pixelation". However, the results of my test verified that there is a point of diminishing IQ stemming from cumulative optical limitations, decreased lens speeds and susceptibility to mechanical shake during exposure.

    In the field, the usual first basic choice for making the highest resolution image is to move close enough to your subject to fill the frame with your desired composition using a prime lens. When moving up isn't an option, I look to my TC's to increase my reach, but not beyond the point that it causes a net degradation of resolution. The results of this structured test give me a better idea of what may be possible in the field, and which tools can do the job.
    -- Craig

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