Help needed, please

[Elmar Venter]

I would like to make a print of this picture and I would value any input and comments to improve it. I have taken this picture at the Storms River Mouth on South Africa's Garden Route. It forms part of the Tsitsikamma National Park. To my mind one of the most scenic spots in South Africa. It was a splendid golden sunrise.

Canon EOS 50D
Lens 17 - 40mm
f11
2.5 seconds
ISO 100

[Dave Mills]

Hi Elmar, Agreed, very splendid sunrise! I like how you framed the image with a rocky area on each side. The fog bank in the backround adds interest along with a beautiful sky. The longer time exposure added to the pleasing silkiness of the water.If this were mine I would print it...nice job...

[Klaus von Schwanebach]

Hi Elmer, you captured a beautiful moment. I think you also have a very good cloud formation, but it is overexposed.
Can you add a filter over it in postprocesing?, (if you have the capabilities). It will bring out more cloud detail.
Well done!

[Roman Kurywczak]

Hi Elmar,
If so incline...it may be better to post the image B4 PP'ing......the shadow appear a bit blocked and it does appear a bit bright. First thing to do is probably a reverse s-curve and taking down some of the brightness. A multiplied layer on the sky (check Robert's tutorial)....may also help bring the wow factor.......as the comp looks very good!

[Arthur Morris]

I disagree with Roman and know that I am right There are lots of over-exposed pixels so the first thing that you need to do is to start over with the RAW file and see if you can produce a file without any overexposure. There are lots of great tutorials in Educational Resources on saving the highlights, the reds, and the yellows. All would help here. The problem is that nobody reads or studies them.

Multiplying a layer cannot help when there is not detail to start with.

There is lots to like about the image: nice shapes and colors.

Also, as presented, the rock on the left looks way over-sharpened to me.

How are you converting?????

[Ramesh Adkoli]

Beautiful image, Elmar. I like the tonal range of warm colors and like the details on the water and rocks. The slow shutterspeed has added to the effect. Nicely done. I agree with Artie in that the image is over sharpened: you see halo on the edges of the rocky hills. You might crop a bit from the top and open up the dark areas on the right and left. TFS.

regards,
ramesh

[Elmar Venter]

Thank you very much for everybody's feedback. It is always great to learn on this forum.

I must admit that I am slightly confused. I will really appreciate your help with the following questions:

1) What is meant with clipping? My understanding is that when the far left or far right bars on a histogram goes right to the top some detail in the blacks/whites have been lost. When I opened the image in ACR there were very little flashing highlights, which I recovered completely in ACR.

2) I went back to educational resources and checked the post on yellows by Nancy. I opened up the "all colours histogram" for this image and noticed that there are some greens to the far right (not right to the top of the histogram).

What do you suggest?

Artie - thanks for pointing out the oversharpening. I applied an "unsharp mask" three times - first at radius 1, then at 0.7 and then at 0.3.

[Robert Amoruso]

Elmar,

It seems that you know how to use ACR for recovering highlights but see this post for some additional information: http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ad.php?t=39984. I can also recommend Artie's Digital Basic's PDF for extensive information - how I got up to speed with digital workflow. See it here https://store.birdsasart.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=252.

The reverse s-curve can be used to lower contrast if needed (more here: http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ad.php?t=20434).

In the sky, the yellows look blocked up. If those are not clipped (that is the flashing highlights - see the first link for more on this), then do a Hue/Saturation correction and desaturate the yellows.

You got the oversharpening mentioned.

Overall great composition (I like that the rock on the lower left is in the frame and not clipped) plus the light is wonderful.

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Elmar,

re:

Thank you very much for everybody's feedback. It is always great to learn on this forum.

YAW. That's why we are here :)

I must admit that I am slightly confused. I will really appreciate your help with the following questions:

1) What is meant with clipping?

Clipping refers to light or dark tones that hit against either edge of the histogram.

Above is a histogram with (seriously!) clipped highlight areas as are contained in your image. Note that on the right side of the histogram the light tone are hard up against the edge of the histogram. These clipped highlights do not contain any data and thus they contain no detail. Our goal in almost all cases is to avoid this scenario. (See the next two panes).

My understanding is that when the far left or far right bars on a histogram goes right to the top some detail in the blacks/whites have been lost.

That is either incorrect or mis-stated. When they go to the top, it shows that there are lots of that tone. When the go to either edge that is what shows clipping/lost detail, and over- or under-exposure.

When I opened the image in ACR there were very little flashing highlights, which I recovered completely in ACR.

If that is true, and there were no flashing highlights visible when you held down the ALT key and the Recovery Slider, then you introduced them afterwards either while processing your image or while creating the JPEG.....

2) I went back to educational resources and checked the post on yellows by Nancy. I opened up the "all colours histogram" for this image and noticed that there are some greens to the far right (not right to the top of the histogram).

Again, it is the stuff touching the edges that are the problem... Not the stuff touching the top. Many of your problems here undoubtedly are a result of over-saturated REDs and YELLOWs....

What do you suggest?

Going back to the ER and studying the various threads including the last pane here:

http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ad.php?t=39984

Then go here for a guy with your exact problem: http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...768#post398768

Be sure to read the whole thing!

Artie - thanks for pointing out the over-sharpening. I applied an "unsharp mask" three times - first at radius 1, then at 0.7 and then at 0.3.

Sharpening for the web should be done so that they image does NOT look oversharpened on the screen...

I wrote Digital Basics just for folks like you. In addition to the lessons above there are dozens and dozens more....

See below for two more histograms....

[Arthur Morris]

Here is a histogram with seriously clipped shadows.

[Arthur Morris]

And here is what we are striving for: A histogram that is pushed to the right with no clipping at either end.

[Elmar Venter]

Thanks Artie, you are very helpful. I feel a bit ashamed as I do have Digital Basics. I will spend some time reading it over the holiday period.

I went back to the raw file and rechecked everything. I use BreezeBrowser to initially view my photos. In this view the photo shows very little flashing highlights and I guess this is also what shows on the back of my camera screen as I am constantly aware working in the field checking for flashing highlights and making the necessary adjustments. When I open the file for editing in ACR it shows a lot of red when holding down the ALT key. This relates to the red channel that is clipped. Could I have avoided blowing the red channel while working in the field?

As part of the conversion of the image posted above I was aware that the red channel was problematic and I did some work on it. Now that I have the definition of clipping correct, the histogram of the converted image posted shows clipping only of the green channel (to the right side of the histogram). The red channel appears to be OK. Am I misinterpreting something?

Thanks for all the help!

[Robert Amoruso]

Elmar,

Artie brought up a good point, you can introduce clipping during post processing (s-curves, hue/saturation, etc.). For images with saturated colors like this one, I will initially convert with the highlights not pushing the edge. What I mean by that is in ACR and using the Exposure and/or REcovery sliders and holding down the ALT key, you see the clipping on the screen in the color that is clipping. I move the slider to turn the screen black, release the ALT key and then look at the Slider setting. I will then move the slider to push highlights down further on the histogram.

I will also desaturate some in ACR for reds and yellows as needed. I then open the image in PS and process it. I will check the histogram in Levels once I am done to be sure no clipping exists (you can do similar in a curves correction).

As I mentioned before, if saturation is the issue, reduce it and watch the detail reemerge.

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Elmar,

re:

Thanks Artie, you are very helpful.

:) and YAW.

I feel a bit ashamed as I do have Digital Basics. I will spend some time reading it over the holiday period.

Good plan. And all of those threads in the ER too! There is a common misconception that you can simply print Digital Basics, put it under your pillow, and learn from it!

I went back to the raw file and rechecked everything. I use BreezeBrowser to initially view my photos. In this view the photo shows very little flashing highlights and I guess this is also what shows on the back of my camera screen as I am constantly aware working in the field checking for flashing highlights and making the necessary adjustments.

That is good.

When I open the file for editing in ACR it shows a lot of red when holding down the ALT key. This relates to the red channel that is clipped. Could I have avoided blowing the red channel while working in the field?

That is a very complex area that I spoke about at length during my program on Long Island last night. If you underexpose the image enough to prevent any clipping of the RED channel the image will be grossly underepxosed. And if you lighten it it will turn to mud. Be to expose so as to minimize clipping in the RED channel while still having the image look acceptable. Then follow the steps in the REDucation tutorials in the ER with regards to adding CYAN to the REDs and reducing the RED SAT and adding BLUE to the YELLOWs if need be and then desaturating the YELLOWs. (Options there would include using either a CYAN or a BLUE Photo Filter to do the same.

As part of the conversion of the image posted above I was aware that the red channel was problematic and I did some work on it. Now that I have the definition of clipping correct, the histogram of the converted image posted shows clipping only of the green channel (to the right side of the histogram).

I'd have to see that one!

The red channel appears to be OK. Am I misinterpreting something?

It seems that you are learning and getting on track.

Thanks for all the help!

YAW.

[Morkel Erasmus]

some interesting pointers all around here. I love the image as an image and do feel that if you take saturation on yellows and reds down you might solve the clipping entirely. I would be careful to sharpen THAT much on a landscape image - I have found that on web-posting size even sharpening twice on 0.3px tends to be too much.

the fall and quality of light in your shot is breath-taking! some TLC will make this a proud canvas on a wall...

[Elmar Venter]

Thanks Artie, your comments and advice have been really valuable. I went to REDucation - certainly worth the read. Here is the histogram of the image posted above - my interpretation is that the red channel is OK, the greens appear to be the problem:

[Elmar Venter]

Thanks Morkel, your comments are very kind.

[Arthur Morris]

Thanks Artie, your comments and advice have been really valuable. I went to REDucation - certainly worth the read. Here is the histogram of the image posted above - my interpretation is that the red channel is OK, the greens appear to be the problem:

Wow, the image looks way better even in Photoshop. Here is what I am gonna do: find a color wheel and see what the opposite of green is. Be right back.

[Arthur Morris]

Well, as it turns out, the opposite of green is red. I was gonna suggest adding a 10 or 5% RED Photo Filter but that would add RED which we were trying to reduce.... Try this: go to Selective Color, add some RED to the GREEN channel, and then check the histogram till you get it right (which seems likely at this point...)

[Elmar Venter]

Thanks Artie. It really is a priviledge to get such expert advice. It turns out that the "selective color" tool is not available in Elements. So what I did is to create a hue adjustment layer and I desaturated the greens, which pulled back the green channel (histogram posted in next panel). In addition I also did a shadows/highlights adjustment to recover a bit of detail in the dark areas. And then I backed off on the sharpening. Any comments on the revised image will be appreciated.

[Elmar Venter]

Here is the histogram of the image in the repost with the greens no longer touching the right.

[Roman Kurywczak]

I disagree with Roman and know that I am right There are lots of over-exposed pixels so the first thing that you need to do is to start over with the RAW file and see if you can produce a file without any overexposure. There are lots of great tutorials in Educational Resources on saving the highlights, the reds, and the yellows. All would help here. The problem is that nobody reads or studies them.

Multiplying a layer cannot help when there is not detail to start with.

There is lots to like about the image: nice shapes and colors.

Also, as presented, the rock on the left looks way over-sharpened to me.

How are you converting?????

OK,
I did read the rest.....so I'm cunfused.....you disagree with me because i said; "post image B4 post processing"????
Elmar,
Nice job following the advice.....many ways to get there....different approaches.....I think you handled alll the advice nicely!

[Elmar Venter]

Thanks Roman, always great to get advice from you. I will never regret the day I joined BPN.

[Arthur Morris]

Roman, (unless I misunderstood what you wrote which does not seem likely) I disagreed with your suggestions to use a reverse S Curve and to Multiply the highlights rather than to start over by reconverting properly. Multiplying or Linear Burning when there is no detail does not help... Ever.

Not to mention that you stated that the image seemed "a bit bright" when in fact it was groslly over-exposed with lots of clipped highlights.

And then again just above, "Nice job following the advice.....many ways to get there....different approaches."

You are implying that multiply and reverse S-curving could have helped an image that was presented as well over-exposed and I do not believe that to be the case.

See you soon at Barnegat!

Respectfully posted.

[Arthur Morris]

Thanks Artie. It really is a priviledge to get such expert advice. It turns out that the "selective color" tool is not available in Elements. So what I did is to create a hue adjustment layer and I desaturated the greens, which pulled back the green channel (histogram posted in next panel). In addition I also did a shadows/highlights adjustment to recover a bit of detail in the dark areas. And then I backed off on the sharpening. Any comments on the revised image will be appreciated.

Hi Elmar, Sorry that I almost missed your question. The repost is better but there is still a smattering of over-exposed pixels. I love the image design but would prefer it a bit darker (even though I was not there :))