photoshop or Lightroom??

[Don Hamilton Jr.]

Good Evening: Thought i'd inquire from folks in the know. As i learn, and listen more; I'm entertaining which software program to purchase for processing, and editing. I currently own LR2.5, however seems most folks in the know are using the CS2- CS4 programs. Since this is an expensive investment, i'd like to inquire .
Thks for your input.
Don

[Alfred Forns]

Hi Don You actually need both :) LR has gotten to a point you can even do some local changes ending up with a fine looking image but most will require the final touches in PS if you want the best you can turn out.

[Robert Amoruso]

Though I have LR, I rarely use it. I use PS3 or PS4 depending upon which computer I am on. My workflow requires the more advanced capabilities of PS and I am not really interested in having two different workflows between two different programs.

[Don Hamilton Jr.]

Al, and Robert, thks for your input, sounds like i need to go in that direction, several folks have echo'd the same as you! I wonder if this software, might have some reduced costs around the holidays!'
Don

[Robert Amoruso]

Al, and Robert, thks for your input, sounds like i need to go in that direction, several folks have echo'd the same as you! I wonder if this software, might have some reduced costs around the holidays!'
Don

I doubt it. Adobe does not need to put PS on sale to sell it.

[Fabs Forns]

Hi Don, I have both Lightroom and CS4 and choose not to use Lightroom because I am perfectly happy and comfortable with ACR, the default converting from PS. I have enough software as it is to complicate my routine even further.
Having said that, Lightroom is an excellent program, developed by the same people who put out PS.

If you do not want to go overboard in expenses, get PS Elements and a book called Unleashing the Power of Elements. Elemenets does not have the ability to work 16 bit files as far as I know yet.

[Jeff Donald]

Elements can indeed edit 16 bit files, but has very limited 16 bit filters and of course no real ability to do layers easily (though it can be done as well).

[Fabs Forns]

Thanks for the clarification, Jeff.

[Danny J Brown]

If you have a teacher in the family or even kids in school you can get Adobe CS4 Student edition for $199.99 with proper documentation at the Academic Super Store website. My wife is a school teacher and we got LR II for $99.99. There is no difference in the programs other than the student editions are less expensive.

[Fabs Forns]

Just make sure if you are going to get CS4, to get the extended edition. Some features will not be available otherwise.

[Jeff Donald]

If you have a teacher in the family or even kids in school you can get Adobe CS4 Student edition for $199.99 with proper documentation at the Academic Super Store website. My wife is a school teacher and we got LR II for $99.99. There is no difference in the programs other than the student editions are less expensive.

Student Editions are never eligible for upgrades. A new copy must be purchased when it becomes necessary to upgrade PS because of new camera bodies not working in ACR.

[Danny J Brown]

Hi Jeff: The LR II I purchased there for $99.99 came with free upgrades - its now LR 2.5. Perhaps it wasn't a student edition, but just cheaper for teachers and students. I was planning on using Canon DPP as my RAW Converter, as I do with LR II, into CS4 Extended so I wouldn't have to worry about upgrades for a good while. Do you think there would be any problem with that? Just wondering because I haven't purchased CS4 yet.

[Jeff Donald]

When LR 2.x goes to 3.x you'll need to buy an education version again. Incremental upgrades are free. Photoshop is currently 11.0.1 and the upgrade from 11.0.0 was free. When PS moves to 12 (CS5?) you'll need to buy the education version again, or buy the full version to be eligible for upgrades. The restrictions on the Education Version (Student/Teacher Edition) is contain in the EULA. The EULA is the legalese that you have to agree to before you can install the software.

[Danny J Brown]

Thanks Jeff.

[Roger Clark]

Student Editions are never eligible for upgrades. A new copy must be purchased when it becomes necessary to upgrade PS because of new camera bodies not working in ACR.

Perhaps things have changed. I got photoshop as a student version (when they moved to a limit of two copies max on machines--I had 3 machines), and I've upgraded just fine ever since, currently at CS4.

Roger

[Doug Brown]

I use both LR and PS CS4 in my workflow. I find them both indispensable. Lightroom 3 is in beta right now and you can download it for free.

[arash_hazeghi]

I sometimes use LR to make proofs, but not much more. I like using manufacturer software because it uses proprietary demosaic and sharpening algorithm optimized for each camera and it reproduce accurate colors by reading the embedded white balance and color profile information, in the case of Canon it is free and blazing fast too! I convert to 16Bit TIFFs and then do final touch up and edit in CS3.

[Jeff Donald]

Just for claification here is Adobe's policy on who can buy the Education version of Photoshop:

Who can purchase and use the Student Editions?
Only full- or part-time students enrolled at a higher education establishment, defined as an accredited public or private university or a college that grants degrees requiring not less than the equivalent of two (2) years of study, or students enrolled at an accredited public or private school providing full-time instruction are eligible.

Other individual end user purchases — eligibility
Qualified examples

Qualified individuals who acquire Educational Software Products for their own personal use but not for further distribution or transfer and who have presented to reseller Appropriate Identification of current status as:

Students enrolled in grades K–12 at an accredited public or private primary or secondary school providing full-time instruction

Full-time or part-time students enrolled at a higher education institution defined as an accredited public or private university or college (including community, junior, or vocational college) that grants degrees requiring not less than the equivalent of two (2) years of full-time study

Full-time or part-time faculty and staff employed by an accredited K–12 or higher education institution
Other qualified examples as listed by Adobe from time to time on its website or in other written communication

No Longer A Student?

An important note about upgrading your software: Your personal investment in Adobe products may continue to be valuable, even if you no longer meet the qualifications for Adobe education pricing. Contact the online Adobe Store or your local reseller for information about upgrades to commercial versions of your products.

All offers and prices are limited to residents of the United States and Canada who are qualified Adobe education customers. Prices are estimated prices in U.S. dollars. Actual pricing may vary. Prices are subject to change without notice. Contact your local Adobe Authorized Education Reseller for actual pricing details.

When the student is no longer a student they can upgrade to a full version of Photoshop by paying the difference in the two products. The current price for CS4 Extended is $349 for US students. They can upgrade to the non-education version by paying $350. When CS5 comes out the student would pay $350 to upgrade to the non-student version and pay the then current upgrade price. There is no upgrade from one student version to another. If a student owns CS4 and wants CS5 (when it comes out) they must either upgrade to a full version (and then upgrade) or purchase a Student Edition of CS5.

Student Editions cannot be sold or transferred to another student. In other words if a family wanted to hand down a copy of CS4 from one student child to another, that would not be permitted. Only the orginal purchaser can use the product. Student Editions do not come with printed manuals, but the manuals are contained on the DVD in electronic form. US Student Edition may be used for commercial purchases, non-US versions may not be used for commercial purposes. Sorry for the lengthy reply but this topic is often very confusing and there is a lot if misinformation on the web. I even had parents that were told the wrong upgrade policy at the university store and then yell at me when the student couldn't upgrade to the newest version.

[Don Hamilton Jr.]

jeff, thks so much for this information... I do have a son in College, and one in highschool... however it sounds like the"Blocked" upgrade is the bottleneck for future upgrades, does anyone know if the student CS4 extended, will do all that is needed, vs non student version, which allows upgrades?
Thks for this wealth of information!
Don

[Danny J Brown]

I sometimes use LR to make proofs, but not much more. I like using manufacturer software because it uses proprietary demosaic and sharpening algorithm optimized for each camera and it reproduce accurate colors by reading the embedded white balance and color profile information, in the case of Canon it is free and blazing fast too! I convert to 16Bit TIFFs and then do final touch up and edit in CS3.

Hi Arash:

Thanks for addressing my original question (Thread #12) clearly. I will continue with Canon DPP as I've used it for years as a RAW Converter and I will convert to 16Bit TIFFs for use in Adobe CS4 Student Version-Extended which I will purchase tonight. I'll keep LR 2.5 around and use it as needed for quick operations. By the way, for printing photos for sale as 8 x 10's (framed and matted) I rarely ever go beyond processing in DPP itself and I print on my Canon Pro 9000 MK II right from the edited RAW file (embedded JPEG I assume). Thanks again my good sir.

[arash_hazeghi]

Hi Arash:

Thanks for addressing my original question (Thread #12) clearly. I will continue with Canon DPP as I've used it for years as a RAW Converter and I will convert to 16Bit TIFFs for use in Adobe CS4 Student Version-Extended which I will purchase tonight. I'll keep LR 2.5 around and use it as needed for quick operations. By the way, for printing photos for sale as 8 x 10's (framed and matted) I rarely ever go beyond processing in DPP itself and I print on my Canon Pro 9000 MK II right from the edited RAW file (embedded JPEG I assume). Thanks again my good sir.

Danny,
If you have the new Quad Core or i7 CPUs you will find that DPP has native multi-threading and runs way faster than LR, I just upgraded to Windows 7 64-Bit and it runs at least twice as fast as LR when rendering and converting 7D and 5DMKII RAWs. It is also "color-smart" with PIXMA printers so profile matching is easy. The only thing that I like about LR is the ability to generate a quick web gallery for people to see, but now with smugmug service I just batch process my files to HD res JPEG and upload them in one shot.

Best

[Don Hamilton Jr.]

Danny,, and others this is really great stuff, Sorry for another newbie question:
How does one take an image and send it to an outside company for printing, if one doesn't have printer capabilities. Seems that emailing a jpeg, is a waste off the awesome raw data. Does one burn a cd from your final LR, or CS post processing, and mail it, or what?
The digital learning curve is steep, but well worth it, compared to film expenses.
TIA
Don

[arash_hazeghi]

There is also another channel for obtaining Adobe software at low and legitimate prices. Adobe have academic software licensing program at select universities and colleges available to students, faculty and staff. The copies come in plain DVD and are copied on the spot with no box or anything just a paper that has a serial number on it, but it is the full version eligible for upgrade/support and install on up to 3 machines. I got the entire CS3 creative suite for $165 which I am still using. This is usually not advertised widely but if you are student/faculty/staff check with your school's IT department to see if they provide this service.

[Roger Clark]

jeff, thks so much for this information... I do have a son in College, and one in highschool... however it sounds like the"Blocked" upgrade is the bottleneck for future upgrades, does anyone know if the student CS4 extended, will do all that is needed, vs non student version, which allows upgrades?
Thks for this wealth of information!
Don

I don't think so. When I upgraded, I paid the full price upgrade and no problem. It seems that is what the policy states. So there is no student upgrade price you just buy the regular upgrade. You still save in the long run.

Roger

[Jeff Donald]

There is also another channel for obtaining Adobe software at low and legitimate prices. Adobe have academic software licensing program at select universities and colleges available to students, faculty and staff. The copies come in plain DVD and are copied on the spot with no box or anything just a paper that has a serial number on it, but it is the full version eligible for upgrade/support and install on up to 3 machines. I got the entire CS3 creative suite for $165 which I am still using. This is usually not advertised widely but if you are student/faculty/staff check with your school's IT department to see if they provide this service.

These are not technically Student Editions. The university will negotiate bulk licensing with Adobe. Many times these versions have a more restrictive license than the student edition. In my experience at several universities the university license version restricts the use to noncommercial work (if the work is not directly for the university) when no longer a student, faculty of staff. In many instances these versions do not need serialization or authorization via the internet or phone, to work. Thus they can be upgraded, but it is in violation of the EULA to do so. To obtain more information on university licensed versions you need to read the EULA and the restrictions contained therein.

[Jeff Donald]

I don't think so. When I upgraded, I paid the full price upgrade and no problem. It seems that is what the policy states. So there is no student upgrade price you just buy the regular upgrade. You still save in the long run.

Roger

There is an upgrade price and policy and it can be found on Adobe's site. You can also call Adobe to confirm what version you have and the upgradability of the program.

I just got off the phone with Adobe and they pointed me to pdf that has part of the licensing information.

Q: Can software purchased through the Adobe Student Licensing Option be upgraded?

A: Yes. Students are eligible to purchase the commercial upgrade for the product upon graduation. If they are still students, they must also purchase a separate copy of the new product through the Adobe Student Licensing Option.

Q: Are there any restrictions on student, faculty and staff purchases of software through the Adobe Student Licensing Option?

A: Yes. Students, faculty and staff may only purchase one (1) copy of a particular product within a 12-month period. They may only purchase products for their own personal use and may not resell or distribute the product.

These versions are not upgradable while a student. Meaning if a student purchases Photoshop CS4 via university site licensing and CS5 comes out, their version of CS4 cannot be upgrade while still a student and they must buy a site licensed copy to upgrade. Once they are no longer a student, they are eligible to upgrade their university site licensed copy to the regular version by purchasing an upgrade for the regular version.

It may be that some very large universities my have a special license, Adobe seems to have moved away from that program in favor of greater standardization.

[Indranil Sircar]

Al, and Robert, thks for your input, sounds like i need to go in that direction, several folks have echo'd the same as you! I wonder if this software, might have some reduced costs around the holidays!'
Don

Adobe sometimes have promotions for users of Elements to upgrade them to CS4... i got my CS4 for $299.

[Jeff Donald]

Here is the link on the Adobe site for upgrading to Photoshop CS4. If your version of elements or PS is not listed, you waited too long and you'll need to buy a full version.

[Danny J Brown]

Danny,
If you have the new Quad Core or i7 CPUs you will find that DPP has native multi-threading and runs way faster than LR, I just upgraded to Windows 7 64-Bit and it runs at least twice as fast as LR when rendering and converting 7D and 5DMKII RAWs. It is also "color-smart" with PIXMA printers so profile matching is easy. The only thing that I like about LR is the ability to generate a quick web gallery for people to see, but now with smugmug service I just batch process my files to HD res JPEG and upload them in one shot.

Best

Yea, I have been using SmugMug for my web gallery for a couple years now and love it!

[Danny J Brown]

Danny,, and others this is really great stuff, Sorry for another newbie question:
How does one take an image and send it to an outside company for printing, if one doesn't have printer capabilities. Seems that emailing a jpeg, is a waste off the awesome raw data. Does one burn a cd from your final LR, or CS post processing, and mail it, or what?
The digital learning curve is steep, but well worth it, compared to film expenses.
TIA
Don

Hi Don: I should be getting off here because I'm not real strong on techs but I think that most people just send high-res JPEGs to places like MPIX and get prints of beautiful color and quality that would be hard to distinguish from other file sources. I know I did that for years before I purchased a printer. By the way, Canon printers, even the bigger ones are very affordable at $500 or less if you don't need to go more than 13 x 19. They have amazing rebates as well. I love mine!

[Linwood Ferguson]

It may have been clear further up but one point in case not...

Photoshop and Lightroom both use the same ACR engine for image conversion. If you turn on a feature called "write to XMP files" in Lightroom, you can share the results between them.

So if you use lightwoom to initially screen, cull and do a quick set of adjustments, when you open them in Photoshop from Lightroom those edits are already there. Alternatively, you could even switch entirely and use Bridge to get to photoshop (not the best option but some do) and they are also still there.

I was a die heard photoshop fan, and once I got lightroom I found I switched into Photoshop probably 5% of the time, if that. With the localized edits that got added to lightroom, even minor cloning and spot touchups became practical in Lightroom. Anyone who only experienced the 1.x versions would have a much, much higher percentage of time spent in Photoshop.

A big advantage of lightroom is that you can save edits of hundreds and hundreds of files and not notice the disk space, since unlike Photoshop where you will end up with huge TIFF's, you just have the original (unmodified) NEF plus a set of instructions. Disk space is obviously not the point of photography, but if you are not hugely aggressive at culling, it does become a challange. I tend to end up with just a few TIFF's here and there from dropping into Photoshop, the rest are NEF's.

[Jay Gould]

Love LR!

Also important to keep in mind that disc space can be reduced by converting to .dng instead of maintaining CR2 files. Also, now that Topaz Fusion is being released for Windows that means you can do noise reduction, sharpening, etc in LR to the original RAW image before conversion!

Unless you are doing graphics and OOTB type stuff LR is probably all you are going to need in the vast majority of images.

It is on my To Do list to play with DPP given all that Arash has said here and in the past about proprietary software.

That said, I am stuffing myself learning all I can about PS; currently working through Matt Kowalski's Layers tome.