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Thread: Scoop! Canon 1D Mark IV is Offical

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    Co-Founder James Shadle's Avatar
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    Default Scoop! Canon 1D Mark IV is Offical

    We got this up before dpreview !!!!

    http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...&modelid=19584
    http://www.canon.com.au/products/cam...arkIVBody.aspx

    Outstanding image quality
    - 16.1 megapixel APS-H CMOS Sensor
    - Dual DiG!C 4 Image Processors
    - 14-bit A/D colour conversion
    - ISO 100-12800 (L0, H1: 25600, H2: 51200,
    H3: 102400)

    High Performance Features
    - High speed & precision 45-point AF
    (39 cross-type points + 6 points)
    - Capture up to 10 fps
    - HDMI Output in FULL High-Definition
    - FULL HD Movie recording

    Digital SLR photography made easy
    - 3.0" Clear View II LCD screen (920,000 dots)
    - Quick Control screen
    - Compatible with all EF lenses
    - Live View shooting

    Highly Intuitive
    - Automatic image correction
    - Auto Lighting Optimiser
    - Auto correction of lens peripheral illumination
    - EOS Integrated Cleaning System

    Excellent customisation features
    - Copyright information - up to 63 characters
    - Register up to three camera user settings
    - 62 custom functions
    - My Menu

    Huge Range of Standard Accessories + Software
    - Battery Charger LC-E4
    - Interface Cable IFC-200U
    - Battery Pack LP-E4
    - Stereo AV cable AVC-DC400ST
    - Date/time CR2025 lithium battery
    - Wide Strap L6
    - EOS DIGITAL Solution Disk
    - Software Instruction Manual

    Optional Accessories
    - All EF & L Series Lenses
    - Canon EX-series Speedlites
    - Macro Ring Lite MR-14EX
    - Macro Twin Lite MT-24EX
    - E-series Dioptric Adjustment Lenses
    - Angle Finder C
    - Original Data Security Kit OSK-E3
    - Interface Cable IFC-500U
    - AC Adapter Kit ACK-E4
    - Battery Charger CBL-E6
    - Car Battery Cable CB-570
    - HDMI Cable HTC-100
    - Wireless File Transmitter WFTE2 II D
    - Timer Remote Controller TC-80N3
    - Remote Switch RS-80N3
    - Wireless Controller LC-5
    - Speedlite Transmitter ST-E2

  2. #2
    Įkos Lumnitzer
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    WHOA Froggie! That's an awesome set of specs there! I was only reading some of it a few hours back before the official gag was sent. Canon Australia is making the announcement at 18:30 AEST at some event in the city.

    Now THIS I am interested in! :D

    Thanks mate! :)

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    sounds to me like a must-have camera :)

    THANK YOU Canon for giving us back the 45 selectable AF points! This will make my life much easier again :)

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    fabulous specifications ,

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    looks like the game is back on...
    I am highly interested to see if the low-light ISO shots compare well with the D3s.
    I also assume 16.1mp on an APS-H is going to be much more 'noise-free' than 18.8mp on an APS-C?
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    Įkos Lumnitzer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morkel Erasmus View Post
    I also assume 16.1mp on an APS-H is going to be much more 'noise-free' than 18.8mp on an APS-C?
    One could bet money on that for sure. :)

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    This one will be a temptation for a Nikon wildlife photographer, simply because of the higher IQ it may provide(likely will provide) over the 300s I'm currently using and especially whereas it's not PD (pixel density) limited to the extent that a 12MP FF body is.

  8. #8
    Van Hilliard
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    Decisions!
    Decisions!
    It's really tough trying to choose your next pro-level body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Fenton View Post
    This one will be a temptation for a Nikon wildlife photographer, simply because of the higher IQ it may provide(likely will provide) over the 300s I'm currently using and especially whereas it's not PD (pixel density) limited to the extent that a 12MP FF body is.
    Looks very nice on paper, cropped to 1.6X it will be a 10 Mpixels so the reach is more like the older 40D and it is equal to a 27Mpixel FF, similar to D3X.

    Looks like the cross types are only with f/2.8 lenses and "certain" f/4 lenses that do not include 500 f/4 and 600 f/4s. I wished for f/5.6 or at least f/4 cross type since that's the aperture where the super-telephotos stand .

    The AF is also very different, it is entirely different from 7D, there is no zone mode, it is an improved version of MKIII rather than a variant of 7D.

    Should wait to see what the IQ looks like.
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 10-20-2009 at 07:13 AM.
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    The price is going to be a hard sell at home. She Who Must Be Obeyed simply sniffed and rolled her eyes when I mentioned the price.

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    Super Moderator arash_hazeghi's Avatar
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    From Canon UK


    Stable lens drive: In normal operation, the AI Servo algorithm makes calculations, and based on these results, instructs the lens to change focus position. Now, if the algorithm gets two results one after the other that are very different - for example, the subject changed direction rapidly and was not where the system expected it to be - this calculation is ignored and the system waits to instruct the lens until two results match. This means that errors generated no longer cause the lens to jump unexpectedly out of focus.

    Secure focus tracking of a subject: If an obstacle is detected or if the AF point is not kept over the subject, tracking continues based on the last known trajectory result immediately before the interruption.

    Moderate lens drive: If there is a radical change in focus distance, the lens is not driven straight to that value. It is slowly taken there based on past prediction results. This means that if a photographer drifts off the subject to the background for an extended period of time, the lens will not snap focus straight to the background. This in turn means that if the photographer gets the AF point back onto the subject that the lens is able to achieve sharp focus much more quickly.

    Predictive control with quick response: The system is now able to achieve predictive focus immediately as the subject starts moving and there is no delay before it can start tracking.
    This is exactly the phenomenon that current Canon cameras suffer from IMHO, in engineering terms it's called servo overshoot and it is when the servo mechanism is under-damped and results in "jumpy" erratic behavior, what they call "moderate lens drive" is most likely to address this and I am happy that they have finally realized and hopefully eliminated this issues. I wish some of these improvements were also applied to the 7D, especially for people who cannot spend 5 grand on a camera body :(

    More info. about the AF system here
    http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/control...rticleTypeID=5


    The emphasis of the new AF system is stability and accuracy rather than speed and response.
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 10-20-2009 at 08:12 AM. Reason: added link
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    Axel Hildebrandt
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Chardine View Post
    The price is going to be a hard sell at home. She Who Must Be Obeyed simply sniffed and rolled her eyes when I mentioned the price.
    Maybe you can tell her that it is a bargain compared with the UK. :)

  13. #13
    Axel Hildebrandt
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    Here is an example of the 1D4 at ISO 3200, I don't know if in-camera NR was enabled but the noise in the BG at full size looks pretty good: http://aux1.jp.canon.com/eosd/sample...nloads/005.jpg

    Here is one at ISO 400, there is some noise in the upper right at full size: http://aux1.jp.canon.com/eosd/sample...nloads/002.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Chardine View Post
    The price is going to be a hard sell at home. She Who Must Be Obeyed simply sniffed and rolled her eyes when I mentioned the price.
    My "significant other" merely said: "Your choice: car or camera." She's right, of course...you can buy a nice late model used car for $5K these days...

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    I've been waiting for this body for almost a year. :) But dang I expect stocks to arrive by January. :(

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    c.w. moynihan
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    Seems more like a 1D3N to me...;). IMO, I wouldn't be surprised if the new AF scheme of the 7D is the predecessor (guinea pig) for the next gen of 1 series cameras (1D5 series) but with 45 AF points. As an owner of a 1Ds3, who's AF I don't find to be a problem, I think I will wait for the next series. This one is too incremental, imo especially AF wise.

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    I have been planning and saving for this bad boy.... The extra cash from shooting kids playing various games with balls is partially funding.

    Hey it's a better mid-life crisis than a convertible and a blonde as far as the wife is concerned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LouBuonomo View Post
    Hey it's a better mid-life crisis than a convertible and a blonde as far as the wife is concerned.
    Now that is how you sell it to your spouse! ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axel Hildebrandt View Post
    Maybe you can tell her that it is a bargain compared with the UK. :)
    Quote Originally Posted by LouBuonomo View Post
    I have been planning and saving for this bad boy.... The extra cash from shooting kids playing various games with balls is partially funding.

    Hey it's a better mid-life crisis than a convertible and a blonde as far as the wife is concerned.
    These tips are as gold. I'm keeping a diary of them. Permission to use at will?

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    Quote Originally Posted by c.w. moynihan View Post
    Seems more like a 1D3N to me...;). IMO, I wouldn't be surprised if the new AF scheme of the 7D is the predecessor (guinea pig) for the next gen of 1 series cameras (1D5 series) but with 45 AF points. As an owner of a 1Ds3, who's AF I don't find to be a problem, I think I will wait for the next series. This one is too incremental, imo especially AF wise.
    Personally I don't think Canon had as far to go between pro models as Nikon did with the D3 and it's predecessor (D2x?), so it seems like a smaller increment. I think we will start to see a tailing-off of features and a homing in on ISO, noise and IQ in the future - the exponential advances in technology we have seen over the past 5 years cannot continue. I don't see much call for > 10 fps, and surely we must have enough metering zones and AF points don't we? I think the 1.3 crop/16.8 mp in the mkIV is a good compromise and I for one am very glad Canon did not play the megapixel game with this one. It will of course be crucial that the mkIV has a solid AF system.

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    Wildlife / Landscape Moderator Morkel Erasmus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LouBuonomo View Post
    I have been planning and saving for this bad boy.... The extra cash from shooting kids playing various games with balls is partially funding.

    Hey it's a better mid-life crisis than a convertible and a blonde as far as the wife is concerned.
    this would have worked if I was past the age of 30...:)
    gotta find some other way to convince "She Who Must Be Obeyed"

    (some great banter guys)
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    John my wisdom is your sto share :)

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    Man, here we go again, i just promised my wife that i was done for awhile.Last week...
    Canon 500mm, Tripod, Wimb II head... man i'm in deep now! Let's see, how can i "Sell" this one"!
    Worse part, im just learning manual exposure,I have so far to go, but man i have the tools!! I guess that means, i'm in the ballpark, but need too make contact with the ball!!
    :) :)
    Don

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    Lifetime Member Jay Gould's Avatar
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    Franklly, as someone who was really hot to trot for the 1D4 even though I just bought the 7D, so far the reviews are knocking me over with a ton of bricks. From what I am reading this is a very topic specific body for subjects in movement, e.g., no electronic level for landscape.

    I await with baited breath for Artie's impressions which I will admit will probably be the most influential of all reviews in my decision process.

    The body will not be available until late December; if I am lucky I would receive it two days before my Antarctic trip. I will have the 7D with me; however, two days seems like a steep learning curve to rely on a new camera.

    Subject to reading what out resident Guru opines about the 1D4 my leanings are to wait until I return to Australia May 2010 and buy it after the bugs have been further shaken out of the cogs and some firmware updates have been released.

    I am very fluid on this purchase; in less of a hurry than I thought I would be. Also, I guess I expected a price tag closer to $4K than $5K.
    Cheers, Jay

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    Another well priced Canon product for the UK!

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    Rich- I've said it before but I don't know how you guys can afford to make images.

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    Axel Hildebrandt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Steel View Post
    Another well priced Canon product for the UK!
    Does the price include VAT or why is it so much more expensive?

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    Jay, very good point, the price is steep, i'm a newbie, i know for sure, i will not be buying anything until i've exhausted the research and you pros have given it the the thunbs up. I'd like to have another camera etc, however the 7d sounds awesome, i just want a body that i can use the tele extenders on my lens, and be able to use the AF points. I'm just reading that with my 50D, i can use a 1.4 on my 500 f4, and my 70-200mm 2.8; but my 100-400mm is not going to work with this. It sounds important to be able to use all of the focal points.
    By the way folks, is it a good idea to acquire a 1.4X tele from folks that already have the knowledge!
    Don

  29. #29
    Axel Hildebrandt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Hamilton Jr. View Post
    Jay, very good point, the price is steep, i'm a newbie, i know for sure, iwil not be buying anything until i've exhausted the research and you pros have given it the the thunbs up. I'd like to have another camera etc, however the 7d sounds awesome, i just want a body that i can use the teleextenders on my lens, and be able to use the AF points. I'm just reading that with my 50D, i can use a 1.4 on my 500, and my 70-200 2.8m but my 100-400mm is not going to work wit this. It sounds important to be able to use all of the focal points.
    By the way folks, is it a good idea to acquire a 1.4X tele to use with my 500mm f4, and 50D
    Also sorry to ask so many questions, just better to learn form folks that already have the knowledge!
    Don
    A 1.4x TC will work fine with 50D and 500f4, AF acquisition is a bit slower. I would recommend the Canon 1.4x II Extender.

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    Canon obviously think there is a unity exchange rate between the £ and $, either that or they are trying to assist the Geovenment in paying off our rapidly rising National debt.

    If I were to buy a MkIV and 800mm in the UK, the total cost would be, please sit down first, £14488 or at todays exchange rate, $23694.

    The price will include VAT but of course that is set to rise another 2.5% just before Christmas to return it back to the old rate.

    Cheers

    Rich

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    Rich - you think you have it bad...

    converting the $23,694 into ZAR gives me R180,000 odd - which is enough to buy a mid-range sedan brand new :)

    then again - R180,000 is actually undershooting a tad since last time I checked the local prices for the 800mm f5.6 were about R140,000 and the Mk3 about R45,000 - leaving me to make a rough calculation that the Mk4 will cost about R55,000 to R60,000 - thus R200,000 or $26315
    :eek:
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    Robert Empleton
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morkel Erasmus View Post
    this would have worked if I was past the age of 30...:)

    If MLC starts then already, i'm really old. Should have had my 1D years ago.

    Regards,

    Robert

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    Canon should give a half price deal to all those that turn in the Mark III in exchange for this new body. ;)

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    Well, I passed on the 1D3 and really want/need a new camera. I got the 7D and like it, but this will be my wife's replacement for the 40D. The 40D will be our travel back up. Bottom line is I am on the preorder list at Hunts. The 1D4 seems to be what I have been waiting for. I just wish the 1D4 had the electronic level in Live View like the 7D.

  35. #35
    Lance Peters
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    Great news for you Canon shooters got my fingers crossed for you that it lives up to expectations :)

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    Publisher Arthur Morris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Gould View Post
    I await with baited breath for Artie's impressions which I will admit will probably be the most influential of all reviews in my decision process.
    Sorry Jay, there are no worms or killifish or greenbacks in my mouth....

    On the word "bate:

    "To moderate or restrain (a variation of "abate"): to bate one's enthusiasm, and, "to lessen or diminish," and "with bated breath - in a state of suspenseful anticipation."
    "Bated breath" has been around a long time. Here's the first cite in the Oxford English Dictionary: "1596 Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice i. iii. 125 'With bated breath, and whispring humblenesse.'"

    So waiting with bated breath is of course correct. Waiting with baited breath is wrong but the word is so commonly mis-used that it will likely soon be acceptable. Bummer.

    Respectfully.
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    Publisher Arthur Morris's Avatar
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    Here is my main concern here: Far too many folks are more concerned with the technical details of their cameras and with owning the latest-greatest equipment than they are with improving their skills--both in the field and at the computer. I see it on every IPT; folks show up with 10K+ worth of gear and the have no clue... And one gentleman above who is interested in a MIV states that he is working on learning to work in manual mode.

    My advice for those who wish to improve their photography is that they work hard to learn to make better images with whatever equipment they have in their hands.

    I realize that I am likely pissing against the wind here but felt that I had to put in my two cents
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    Publisher Arthur Morris's Avatar
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    ps: the higher than expected price is surely due in part to the video capabilities....
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  39. #39
    Įkos Lumnitzer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Here is my main concern here: Far too many folks are more concerned with the technical details of their cameras and with owning the latest-greatest equipment than they are with improving their skills--both in the field and at the computer. I see it on every IPT; folks show up with 10K+ worth of gear and the have no clue... And one gentleman above who is interested in a MIV states that he is working on learning to work in manual mode.

    My advice for those who wish to improve their photography is that they work hard to learn to make better images with whatever equipment they have in their hands.

    I realize that I am likely pissing against the wind here but felt that I had to put in my two cents
    Amen to that Maestro! :) Couldn't have said it more truthfully.

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    For additional details see Pane #15 here:

    http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...d=1#post365105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Here is my main concern here: Far too many folks are more concerned with the technical details of their cameras and with owning the latest-greatest equipment than they are with improving their skills--both in the field and at the computer. I see it on every IPT; folks show up with 10K+ worth of gear and the have no clue... And one gentleman above who is interested in a MIV states that he is working on learning to work in manual mode.

    My advice for those who wish to improve their photography is that they work hard to learn to make better images with whatever equipment they have in their hands.

    I realize that I am likely pissing against the wind here but felt that I had to put in my two cents
    Along the lines how I feel. I was pondering yesterday if I wanted to pre order now that its been announced. I then looked at two of the images I have had printed large from the MKIII and convinced myself that the IQ is fine as is. I will just use my current main body until I wear it out and then make a decision.


  42. #42
    Įkos Lumnitzer
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    Looks like the MkIIIs are already starting to show up on the second hand market. :D If I can go ahead with some new gear purchase I would be delighted to buy a crappy, no good for anything but a paperweight 1D MkIII and take my picture making to new heights. (hopefully) :D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Here is my main concern here: Far too many folks are more concerned with the technical details of their cameras and with owning the latest-greatest equipment than they are with improving their skills--both in the field and at the computer. I see it on every IPT; folks show up with 10K+ worth of gear and the have no clue... And one gentleman above who is interested in a MIV states that he is working on learning to work in manual mode.

    My advice for those who wish to improve their photography is that they work hard to learn to make better images with whatever equipment they have in their hands.

    I realize that I am likely pissing against the wind here but felt that I had to put in my two cents
    Couldn't have put it better! I find it crazy all this discussion whether such a camera has this got more noise at this pixel size,what is its performance at iso x00000 etc. If people took the time to learn about their camera and better field skills then they might actually get close to their subject rather than having to make enormous crops that suffer with noise issues.

    There has been a huge rise in the number of 'bird photographers' in the UK over the last couple of years. KUACs (kitted up and clueless) as I call them. The problem is they think they have a right to good photographs by any means having spent out their money. Much of their behaviour leaves a lot to be desired but unfortunately is slowly casting a poor opinion within the 'birding community' across all bird photographers.

    Cheers

    Rich

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    Hey Rich, that's a good one: KUAC. More on the same vein: folks think that just because they go out and spend $10-25 K on some glass and a body or two that they will automatically make good image. Man, you gotta love that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Steel View Post
    There has been a huge rise in the number of 'bird photographers' in the UK over the last couple of years. KUACs (kitted up and clueless) as I call them.
    Same case here in India , we call them NBB ( New breed of bablers )
    Cheers
    Harshad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Steel View Post
    If people took the time to learn about their camera and better field skills then they might actually get close to their subject rather than having to make enormous crops that suffer with noise issues.
    There has been a huge rise in the number of 'bird photographers' in the UK over the last couple of years. Much of their behaviour leaves a lot to be desired but unfortunately is slowly casting a poor opinion within the 'birding community' across all bird photographers. Cheers Rich
    In reading too quickly I missed your comments about improper field behavior. It is extremely important that folks speak up when they see folks doing something wrong, or, if they wish to avoid a confrontation, photographer the misdeed and report it to the proper authorities. We will always be judged by the actions of the few.

    I recently got an e-mail from a BPB member who saw a workshop leader feeding Wood Ducks at a preserve in clear violation of the posted regulations. Instead of walking into the visitor center and stating his case he chose to whine to me in several e-mails. Then he "figured out" that I had fed the ducks at the same location. I stated that I had never fed the ducks there. Then he wrote back and basically called me a liar. You gotta love that.
    BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions.: we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.
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    KUAC - haha nice one!

    thanks for the honesty Artie. I have seen many examples on many forums of people with the top-of-the-range bodies and glass (across manufacturers) who really have no clue as to composition and good photography in general, and don't take well to critique...and that being said I myself sometimes have no clue and need to be shown, but at least I have seen the value in learning the skills necessary with the limited equipment I have.
    Last edited by Morkel Erasmus; 10-22-2009 at 04:09 AM.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    I wish some of these improvements were also applied to the 7D, especially for people who cannot spend 5 grand on a camera body :(

    The emphasis of the new AF system is stability and accuracy rather than speed and response.
    The quote from Canon UK which you give is actually similar to statements made about the 7D on page 6 here.

    http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/...d.do#container

    They also call the 7D's AF "AI Servo II." Seems to me, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in what the marketeers say about the pudding (or about the eating for that matter).

    Re KUAC, I definitely feel clueless at this point, but with just my XTi + 400 f/5.6 I don't even feel properly kitted up, so I'm in a nether stage before one graduates to KUAC.
    Last edited by Flavio Rose; 10-21-2009 at 08:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Hey Rich, that's a good one: KUAC. More on the same vein: folks think that just because they go out and spend $10-25 K on some glass and a body or two that they will automatically make good image. Man, you gotta love that.
    Canon certainly loves it!

    On the other hand, since I love to stir the porridge (an Aussie expression!), speaking for those that are quite serious about learning to become good photographers and graduating from the clueless category, the purchase of expensive equipment assuming it is affordable within one's circumstances isn't done by serious new amateurs so that they can flash the "latest and greatest". It is done because of the desire to to use all of the best tools possible to advance the learning curve as quickly as possible.

    Once upon a time in a far off land a famous photographer said that the 50D was the best birding body he had ever used; that same photographer skipped the 7D and opined regarding the 1D4 that:

    To me the AF seemed far superior against all BKGRs. Final (and honest) answer
    Given the discussions thus far regarding the 50D, 1DIII, and now the 7D, I read the Guru's opinion to be that the 1D4 is probably the best tool for the job.

    Having the 1D4 will not make you a better photographer; hopefully, having the 1D4 AF system and working hard to become a better photographer will asssit in obtaining a better tack sharp keeper rate.

    At the end of the day we all agree that it is up to the individual; cameras do not take photos - people do.
    Cheers, Jay

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    May be I should have defined the KUAC better. It is always a photographer's desire to try and get their hands on the best kit they can afford. The important point is the KUAC believes that having gone straight out and paid out a large sum of money for the best kit they have also purchased instant expertise and are not willing to make the effort to learn. The limited learning they may wish to undertake will try and involve minimum effort and short-cuts. 'What camera settings did you use for that photo?', well the answer to that is the one that was appropriate to the situation in front of me at the time.

    As far as I am concerned wildlife photography it is a constant and endless learning process and the huge resource of the internet makes that process much easier these days. I will never claim to be an expert but am comfortable with the knowledge that I am occasionally rewarded for the great deal of effort I put in to my photography. As with most things in life the more time and effort you put into something the greater the rewards. The KUAC generally believes they can by-pass this process with cash and arrogance. I have a great deal of time and glad to assist people who make the efforts to learn but little for the instant 'expert'. The KUAC believes that is beyond them to need to make the effort to learn as having bought the best kit it will deliver the best photos.

    However it is the absence of field craft that really gets to me. A KUAC will walk into a public hide with their mobile phone ringing, sit in the corner for 10 ten minutes, fire off several hundred shots, as they like the sound of the whirring expensive shutter, before walking back out with a slam of the hide door. They also like to walk up to you as you have spent an hour crawling into shooting distance of some shore birds and utter the phrase 'Seen anything mate?' The answer to that is 'yes, see those birds flying away there'.

    What upsets me most is their aggressive attitute that often results when challenged. I have spent many hours over the last 3 years photographing brown hares. They are very shy animals and it all has to be done from the car. So I was there the other day and two cars turned up. Both KUACs jumped out with one trying to unsuccessfully chase the hares around towards his partner in crime with the camera. So I decided to go and challenge them as to what they thought they were doing scaring the poor animals witless. I was met with a load of abuse and rapidly escalating aggression with them pronouncing that this was 'their patch' (although I had not seen them their ever before in all the hundreds of hours I have spent there) and suggested I leave while I still could!. How pleasent!

    Unfortunately the numbers of KUACs seems to be on the rise but I think their shelf life is short. They will tend to get bored in the end and sell their kit to go a buy a top of the range jetski which is far more effective at terrorising the wildlife!

    Cheers

    Rich
    Last edited by Rich Steel; 10-22-2009 at 03:51 AM.

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