Northern Harrier-repost

[arash_hazeghi]

Here is a repost of the shot I had posted last week, I cleaned up the BKGR using Guassian blur per Arties's suggestions, hope it looks better now




D700 + 200-400 +1.4X TC @550mm f/5.6 1/1600sec ISO 1600

[Daniel Cadieux]

Wow, the harrier looks great and pops nicely agaist the BG. I love the overlapping primaries below. Although overall appealing, I'm finding the BG a little too polished though...

[Arthur Morris]

I like the BKGR and I think that you did well except for a few of the edges of the bird where you might have been more careful (most noticeably at the top of the tail--I think...). For me this is a huge improvement and the bird, the top view, and the SH are all outstanding.

[Axel Hildebrandt]

This one looks much better, good sharpness and the BG is not distracting. Only the rump is still overexposed.

[arash_hazeghi]

I like the BKGR and I think that you did well except for a few of the edges of the bird where you might have been more careful (most noticeably at the top of the tail--I think...). For me this is a huge improvement and the bird, the top view, and the SH are all outstanding.

Good eyes Arti :D,

I selected the bird manually using lasso tool, then I expanded selection by 2 pixles and and then feathered by 1 pixel, applied Guassian blur radius 2.5 on background, this created some artifacts near the edges where you noticed, should I expand more before feathering?

[arash_hazeghi]

This one looks much better, good sharpness and the BG is not distracting. Only the rump is still overexposed.

Yes Axel, there is not much I can do about that the rump in harriers is completely white, just like egrets so if you expose for the blacks it will get blown up, in this sequence I started tracking the harrier in backbit situation so I dialed +1EV, I forgot or did not have enough time to reset this when the bird banked towards the trees, so the rump is blown :D

[Axel Hildebrandt]

Yes Axel, there is not much I can do about that the rump in harriers is completely white, just like egrets so if you expose for the blacks it will get blown up, in this sequence I started tracking the harrier in backbit situation so I dialed +1EV, I forgot or did not have enough time to reset this when the bird banked towards the trees, so the rump is blown :D

I toned down the rump, it would probably work better with the RAW file.

[arash_hazeghi]

I would be surprised if you could not get some details back with highlight recovery and curves.

You might be able to at 0EV but def not with 1EV overexposed, I looked again and all I can get back is gray tonality :D

This is actually very common if you inspect other harrier shots, here is another shot from a few years ago with a 40D, AF was not spot on like the shot above but I had deliberately underexposed by 1EV to get the rump but as you can see it is still blown.

[Axel Hildebrandt]

You could at 0EV but not with 1EV overexposed, I looked again and all I can get back is gray tonality :D

You could make two tiff files with different exposures and combine them but it's probably easier with some recovery. There would probably not be much texture even if the whites were properly exposed.

[Jim Fenton]

Lovely image of a male harrier (I didn't see the original post).

Background is bordering on too smooth for me but it's OK.

It looks to me as though the body itself (not including the white rump) could use some contrast adjustment and perhaps a hair more sharpening. Actually, a light contrast sharpening alone may cover both things.

I thing the Axel rump fix looks really non good :) I'd rather see it blown out white (the way our eyes typically see it) rather than gray which it isn't in reality.

[Axel Hildebrandt]

I thing the Axel rump fix looks really non good :) I'd rather see it blown out white (the way our eyes typically see it) rather than gray which it isn't in reality.

This is why I said it would be better to start with the RAW file. :)

[Arthur Morris]

Good eyes Artie :D, I selected the bird manually using lasso tool, then I expanded selection by 2 pixles and and then feathered by 1 pixel, applied Guassian blur radius 2.5 on background, this created some artifacts near the edges where you noticed, should I expand more before feathering?

Hi Arash. I do not do it that way. I included a link to a Bulletin that described the technique completely but you did not follow it. :( And it was free.

Here is how I do it in similar situations;

Hit Control A to select the whole image and put it on its own layer by hitting Control J. Then run a large Gaussian Blur (about 40 pixels) on the layer. That smooths out the background but makes the bird look like something out of a psychedelic dream. Working at a fairly high magnification, use the eraser tool to erase the bird. Work very carefully on the edges. When you are done, hit a few spots with a 50% Opacity Clone Stamp to eliminate some of the lighter and darker areas. This trick will only work when the area that borders the bird is pretty much evenly toned. I find it much easier to erase the bird in these situations than it is too make a good selection (even when I use Refine Edge….)

Thus, no need to deal with the dark halos or anything else....

Here is a link again to the Bulletin with the photos and the directions:

http://www.birdsasart.com/bn294.htm

Then scroll down to the Swallow-tailed Gull images.

[Arthur Morris]

I toned down the rump, it would probably work better with the RAW file.

Again, you are not taking advantage of the great free info in ER. This topic has been beaten to death there. There are several great threads on saving the whites. No time to re-type them here....

I was so in love with the bird and the image that I did not even notice that the rump was totally toasted and without detail.

Go study :) As Axel said, it is likely that you can use the Recovery Slider to restore the detail in the whites without graying them out......

[arash_hazeghi]

You could make two tiff files with different exposures and combine them but it's probably easier with some recovery. There would probably not be much texture even if the whites were properly exposed.

Unfortunately there is no data in the rump in original NEF file, pixels are fully saturated so no matter what I do I won't be able to recover it expect for gray tonality :D

[arash_hazeghi]

Hi Artie, I did read your bulletin but I had a hard time erasing the layer and getting the edges right :D do you use a tablet or just mouse to erase the edges without bleeding into the BKGR?


I went back and used your 50% clone technique, how does it look now?


Thanks!

Hi Arash. I do not do it that way. I included a link to a Bulletin that described the technique completely but you did not follow it. :( And it was free.

Here is how I do it in similar situations;

Hit Control A to select the whole image and put it on its own layer by hitting Control J. Then run a large Gaussian Blur (about 40 pixels) on the layer. That smooths out the background but makes the bird look like something out of a psychedelic dream. Working at a fairly high magnification, use the eraser tool to erase the bird. Work very carefully on the edges. When you are done, hit a few spots with a 50% Opacity Clone Stamp to eliminate some of the lighter and darker areas. This trick will only work when the area that borders the bird is pretty much evenly toned. I find it much easier to erase the bird in these situations than it is too make a good selection (even when I use Refine Edge….)

Thus, no need to deal with the dark halos or anything else....

Here is a link again to the Bulletin with the photos and the directions:

http://www.birdsasart.com/bn294.htm

Then scroll down to the Swallow-tailed Gull images.

[Harshad Barve]

This turning out to be another great learning thread
Respectfully IMHO all post looks very un-natural
TFS

[Arthur Morris]

Arash, Just a mouse. And only and always on my laptop...

[Morkel Erasmus]

great techniques discussed here yet again. I like the way the harrier 'glows out' against the BG, although as Harshad said it doesn't look that natural - which is also not always the best, I tend to like shots that differ from the norm.

[Arthur Morris]

Unfortunately there is no data in the rump in original NEF file, pixels are fully saturated so no matter what I do I won't be able to recover it expect for gray tonality :D

The Recover slider in most RAW converters can often pull details from areas of white that look detail-less. :)

[arash_hazeghi]

The Recover slider in most RAW converters can often pull details from areas of white that look detail-less. :)

Hey Artie,

yup, I have already tired -2EV (max) in NX2, the clipped peak in red channel is the rump :( I guess if I had reset the original +1EV bias I could have recovered a bit but action happened too quickly:D

[arash_hazeghi]

This turning out to be another great learning thread
Respectfully IMHO all post looks very un-natural
TFS

Harshad,

One question for you, would you still feel this is unnatural if you had not seen the original?

It is a very interesting discussion, what is really the limit of post processing? :D

[Harshad Barve]

Harshad,

One question for you, would you still feel this is unnatural if you had not seen the original?

It is a very interesting discussion, what is really the limit of post processing? :D

Yes Arsah , may be me only but how many times we can get such a polished smooth BG :):)

[Daniel Belasco]

I looked at your post last week Arash and the repost above. The last post about at 08:05 PM looks best but the bg still doesn't look right. The colors just over power the Harrier.

[Arthur Morris]

Hey Artie, yup, I have already tired -2EV (max) in NX2, the clipped peak in red channel is the rump :( I guess if I had reset the original +1EV bias I could have recovered a bit but action happened too quickly:D

Thanks Arash. I just wanted to make sure that we were on the same page. You might take a crack at it in ACR..... Hold down the ALT key while moving the highlight slider to the right and see if the red warnings disappear. (Sometimes they do disappear but you wind up without detail anyway....

As far as the BKGR looking too polished or unnatural, I disagree. If the distance from the bird to the BKGR had been greater than what it was in the original image, that's how it would have looked.

If you still have the layer with the Gaussian Blur and the Clone Stamp work, try doing NR on that layer (without the bird), de-SAT it a bit, and finally lighten it a bit (Control M and lift the curve a bit). Might be killer.

Lastly, the version in Pane #15 looks pretty good to me.

[Arthur Morris]

PS: Are you saying above that the image was created with an EXP compensation of +1 stop???

[arash_hazeghi]

Thanks Arash. I just wanted to make sure that we were on the same page. You might take a crack at it in ACR..... Hold down the ALT key while moving the highlight slider to the right and see if the red warnings disappear. (Sometimes they do disappear but you wind up without detail anyway....

As far as the BKGR looking too polished or unnatural, I disagree. If the distance from the bird to the BKGR had been greater than what it was in the original image, that's how it would have looked.

If you still have the layer with the Gaussian Blur and the Clone Stamp work, try doing NR on that layer (without the bird), de-SAT it a bit, and finally lighten it a bit (Control M and lift the curve a bit). Might be killer.

Lastly, the version in Pane #15 looks pretty good to me.

Your argument about distance is very true, I personally believe now that we don't have the luxury of setup for flight shots like studio portraits :D it is legitimate to enhance the BKGR. Some shots are really difficult to get and IMO as long as you get the pose, contact and sharpness you deserve some freedom in post :D just my opinion I respect others who may disagree.

[arash_hazeghi]

PS: Are you saying above that the image was created with an EXP compensation of +1 stop???

Yes Artie, when I first started tracking the harrier it was against the sky with back light from the ocean, so I dialed +1EV on the camera to avoid the meter being "fooled" by the sky, then it suddenly changed course and banked 90 degrees sharp and heading towards the bushes. It happened so quickly I forgot to reset the exposure setting and thus it was 1EV overexposed. I recovered everything in post except for the rump :D On the plus side it grabbed a vole in the bushes and I got some shots, I will post these in the coming days!

Thanks for your comments and instructions.

[Ákos Lumnitzer]

Hi Arash
Nice banking pose. Not that fussed about the rump area, though it is a little on the hot side. Nevertheless, I am not really a fan of blurring BG either. Not jumping on the bandwagon here, but that is generally beyond what I like to do with PP. Lovely details and Axel's repost pops out! :)

[Arthur Morris]

Yes Artie, when I first started tracking the harrier it was against the sky with back light from the ocean, so I dialed +1EV on the camera to avoid the meter being "fooled" by the sky, then it suddenly changed course and banked 90 degrees sharp and heading towards the bushes. It happened so quickly I forgot to reset the exposure setting and thus it was 1EV overexposed. I recovered everything in post except for the rump :D On the plus side it grabbed a vole in the bushes and I got some shots, I will post these in the coming days!

Thanks for your comments and instructions.

Well, now you know why you need to work in manual mode in flight situations.... :) :) Do a search for "Working in Manual Mode" in the Bulletin Archives or see same in ABP II.