1d Mk III, 1ds Mk III or 5D Mk II for birds?

[DennyKyser]

I have all three of the above bodies and when checking for focus adjustment they are all fairing the same so far. In my every day use, they all have their specific place, 1ds for studio and formals, 1d outside and sports and 5d II as the backup.

I am curious to which would be your first choice of shooting small birds with the 500 4.0 lens, I also have both the 1.4 and 2.0 Ext. I will be pretty close guessing 20-30 yards or so, but again will be jays, cardinals and woodpeckers

I will play around with all of them later on but know there is some math that comes into play when considering the crop factor, DOF, focal length etc.

Hoping some on here have compared them already, or know someone who has or at least knows if the file size is of greater importance than the magnification.

Denny

[Axel Hildebrandt]

For small birds I would use the 1D3, 500f4 and 1.4x TC and stop down to f/8 or so.

[Doug Brown]

Without a doubt I'd go with the 1D Mark III. I would also try to get closer than 20-30 yards.

[DennyKyser]

Thanks guys, that is why I asked, I was leaning the other way thinking would have more pixels to crop from. Glad I asked.

[Axel Hildebrandt]

Without a doubt I'd go with the 1D Mark III. I would also try to get closer than 20-30 yards.

I agree, for small birds you want to try to get within 10 yards or so.

[c.w. moynihan]

For small birds, you will prefer to crop. That being said, 21 MP (1Ds3) is better than the 10 MP (1D3). The only advantage the 1D3 will have is frames per second which can be important for birds in flight. For small perching songbirds, the 1Ds3 is the way to go, imo and is what I use for that subject type.

[Doug Brown]

Here's a very interesting thread on DP Review that deals with exactly this topic. It compares the 7D, 50D, and 5D Mark II with a constant distance to subject. This is the situation commonly encountered in bird photography. You can't just move closer to the bird because you're using a full-frame sensor. It's an interesting read.

[arash_hazeghi]

Both 1DSMKIII and 1DMKIII are fine, The S has actually more reach due to its tighter pixel pitch than the cropped and when you can fill the frame with the bird it produces more detail. It is only 5fps compared to 1DMKIII's 10 fps and has a shallower burst depth. Some claim 1DSMKIII AF is more consistent and doesn't have the original MKIII issues. I have tried the S and I got good results, but the non-S should be good too. I would stay away from 5DMKII for anything other than stationary birds, it's sluggish in fps and in many conditions, its AF is inadequate for flight shots.

[DennyKyser]

My test today showed what the link above did, The 1d III seems sharper at 100% crops. Needless to say they are both sharp, and the file size is a larger on the 1ds but first test shows 1d was the sharper image.

[Charles Glatzer]

I have shot exclusively 1Ds Mark III bodies for the past few years, and they are in a word amazing. I try to crop in-camera to the best of my ability, thereby utilizing the full 21 mp to my advantage, rather than as a means of being able to crop up a smaller subject size in post-production.

The NON-S Mark III AF area covers a larger percentage of the viewfinder than the full frame S model, allowing you to more accurately place an AF point on the subject to obtain your desired in-camera composition. additionally, the burst/buffer rate of the Mark III is an advantage that needs careful consideration when trying to capture good wing position in-flight, etc.

Birds in-flight or when it is necessary to capture peak action in a sequence I would opt for the Mark III, all other times 1Ds for me.

Best,

Chas

[DennyKyser]

I try to crop in-camera to the best of my ability, thereby utilizing the full 21 mp to my advantage, rather than as a means of being able to crop up a smaller subject size in post-production.

Chas

When possible this is the best solution IMO, but what about when you can not crop in camera when you are fixed and can not get any closer that is when it gets interesting. I will do more testing but the first test was clearly not this way, and this was after the lens/camera were checked for micro adjustment. I will add my 1d III is just back from Canon where they replaced some parts. It had been in before for the focus issue, but this time they replaced some parts.

[Doug Brown]

Here's my version of the test.

Setup:
1. Tripod-mounted 500mm f/4 lens in a fixed position relative to the subject
2. IS turned off
3. $100 bill taped to the wall at lens level
4. Manual exposure: f/8, 1/20, ISO 200
5. Center point AF in one shot mode
6. Mirror lockup
7. Cable release
8. RAW mode
9. No post-processing (straight conversion from Lightroom to Photoshop)
10. Crops resized to nearly identical dimensions using Photoshop

For me this replicates real-world bird photography, where you are often in a fixed position relative to the birds. If you want to get closer you must resort to cropping. In this test, I cropped so that I was left with identical image regions in each of the three photos. I then resized the images as necessary, just like I would when posting an image to BPN.

The 3 bodies tested were the 50D, 7D, and 5D Mark II. Can you tell which body produced each of the three (top, middle, and bottom) close-ups? I'll provide the answer later.

[arash_hazeghi]

Here's my version of the test.

Setup:
1. Tripod-mounted 500mm f/4 lens in a fixed position relative to the subject
2. IS turned off
3. $100 bill taped to the wall at lens level
4. Manual exposure: f/8, 1/20, ISO 200
5. Center point AF in one shot mode
6. Mirror lockup
7. Cable release
8. RAW mode
9. No post-processing (straight conversion from Lightroom to Photoshop)
10. Crops resized to nearly identical dimensions using Photoshop

For me this replicates real-world bird photography, where you are often in a fixed position relative to the birds. If you want to get closer you must resort to cropping. In this test, I cropped so that I was left with identical image regions in each of the three photos. I then resized the images as necessary, just like I would when posting an image to BPN.

The 3 bodies tested were the 50D, 7D, and 5D Mark II. Can you tell which body produced each of the three (top, middle, and bottom) close-ups? I'll provide the answer later.

from top to bottom is 5DMKII, 50D and 7D, do I get that $100 bill now :D ?


It would be also helpful to dim the lights and repeat this at 1600 ISO. I generally agree with your method, but there is more to it, field condition is not exactly like tripod shot in good light with remote release. In real-world conditions the tight pixel camera is VERY demanding in terms of AF accuracy and light, a tiny bit of shake or misfocus will result in a photo that lacks crispness and looks harsh in low light. Larger pixels are more forgiving in these conditions, but in good light and with perfect focus, the tighter pixels provide higher resolution and more cropping power.

BTW, Oliver Klink also posted his comments about 7D AF and IQ compared to 1DSMKIII, in this link you can see some full size samples (click on original size) from both 1DSMKIII and 7D with the same lens and almost same conditions, in some situations 7D's high pixel density pulls ahead, but in some situations 1DSMKIII is better.


http://incredibletravelphotos.smugmu...75166803_47CDK

thanks to O. Klink for providing the link.

[DennyKyser]

from top to bottom is 5DMKII, 50D and 7D, do I get that $100 bill now :D ?

I agree, I will do a test like this also using the 1D, 1Ds and 5D mark II

May I ask though, why the IS was turned off, with this lens I never turn it off even with release and mirror lockup. I thought that it still have enough shake for the IS to be useful.

[Doug Brown]

No real need for IS when you've got everything locked down and are using mirror lockup and a cable release.

[DennyKyser]

No real need for IS when you've got everything locked down and are using mirror lockup and a cable release.

Thanks Doug

[Joerg Rockenberger]

No real need for IS when you've got everything locked down and are using mirror lockup and a cable release.

Actually, the image will move before stabilizing upon half-pressing the cable release button under very steady shooting conditions if you don't turn off the IS. JR

[Charles Glatzer]

Hey gang,

Some things to ponder.

What if the subject is suddenly too big in the viewfinder, do you back up or switch to a full frame body? How often do you change bodies according to subject size in the viewfinder, or find that you instead add a converter, post crop, etc. Sometimes it may be more prudent to stay put, making the most compositionally of the subject and background as it appears before you.

No right or wrong answer or way to do it, as much depends on whether the subject is cooperative, how much equipment you are willing to carry a field, and more. Photography is often about making the best compromise at the time, as key moments tend to be fleeting. If your finger is not on the shutter, the equipment is irrelevant.

Wishing all the best in your image making,

Chas

[Doug Brown]

No $100 bill for you Arash, even though you did get the order correct! Here's the same test repeated at ISO 1600 with the 7D and 5D Mark II. Which is which?

[Doug Brown]

Agree with you Chas; I don't often switch bodies in the field. But I can also say that it's uncommon for me to have too much focal length. I'll usually err on the side of increased reach; if the bird is occasionally too large in the frame, so be it.

[arash_hazeghi]

No $100 bill for you Arash, even though you did get the order correct! Here's the same test repeated at ISO 1600 with the 7D and 5D Mark II. Which is which?

Now that there is no prize ,I lost my incentive Doug :(

lol, still the same order up-sampling artifacts are quite visible, black against white high contrast target the high pixel density wins all the time, especially when you up-sample the 5DMKII crop to match 7D. What happened to 50D? BTW, do you have the CR2 files for these?

[Doug Brown]

Yes I do have the CR2 files.

[arash_hazeghi]

Any chance you can upload the CR2s? wanna see how things look like with DPP and normal sharpening...

BTW Doug, if you go for more reach you should pick the S over the non-S (12.4 Mpixel @ 1.3 FOV vs 10 mpixel), so you picked the non-S only for its 10 fps? If you put the 1DMKIII in the test above it will perform worse than all other cameras :D

[Joerg Rockenberger]

No $100 bill for you Arash, even though you did get the order correct!

That is quite impressive. I mean that the 7D offers such an obvious benefit in this test. JR

[Roger Clark]

What if the subject is suddenly too big in the viewfinder, do you back up or switch to a full frame body?

That's easy. I start doing multi-frame mosaics. Of course that doesn't work with BIF, but it can work with slower action.

Roger

[Charles Glatzer]

That's easy. I start doing multi-frame mosaics. Of course that doesn't work with BIF, but it can work with slower action.

Roger

Good point.


And, it works quite well! I have a number Pano type images of animals that were too big in the frame for the focal length in hand done this way.

Chas