Help Needed

[Dave Brown]

Hi Guys,

Asking for a bit of a favor here. I'm wondering if anyone has any images of juvenile Western sandpiper taken in October,preferably the first half of Oct,but I'll take what I can get. I had a very interesting bird today and would like a few images for compasasion purposes. Western sandpiper is very rare in Newfoundland( 2 records).This bird might turn out to be just a Semi Sand,but showed some characters,including a really nice long WESA looking bill that were good for Western Sand. I can't find many/any images online of juvie Western Sands from October. If anyone has an image it would be great if they could post it here. I will only be viewing the images on this site,not posting them anywhere else or anything liek that. Plus we could then talk about the birds that are posted. Sometimes separating Semi Sand from Western Sand can be difficult even for experienced observers,especially in 100km/hr winds. It was a windy day in Newfoundland today...what else is new :)

Dave Brown

[Chris Sloan]

Dave-
I have a few in this gallery, all taken in September though:

http://www.chrissloanphotography.com...98887399_Qtdow

Chris Sloan

[denise ippolito]

Dave, I took this the end of Sept. in Sandy Hook,NJ. Here is a link to the thread and correctly ID'd by Artie. Hope it helps.
http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ad.php?t=45983

[Dave Brown]

Denise,

This is excellent. Not because it helps me but because it will spark an id discussion. This bird is in fact a juvenile Dunlin. Before I get into why,anyone else wanna take a shot??

Dave Brown

I wonder if it might be a better idea to post this in a different thread?

[Axel Hildebrandt]

Without seeing the entire bill I'm very hesitant to ID this bird and I'm not an expert to begin with. :) Denise, do you have another image of this bird?

[denise ippolito]

Axel, Check further down my post in the attached link on top. Art Morris ID'd it as a juvenile Western Sandpiper. I think the second image in the post confirms that.

[Axel Hildebrandt]

Thanks, Denise! The bill looks dunlin-like but I'm not entirely sure and I have never seen a western sandpiper. These shorebird IDs really are tricky.

[denise ippolito]

Axel, It does seem a bit hard. If I look in one book I'm convinced of one thing then if I check another book for confirmation-the images never seem to be similar. Lately I have been going on well known photographers sites and reconfirming my initial thoughts. I am going to have to get that Shorebird book Artie keeps talking about.

[Chris Sloan]

This bird is a juvenile Dunlin. In a hurry right now but will try to post the explanation later.

[Arthur Morris]

Agree on juvenile Dunlin starting to molt to first winter. (You got me good on that one Dave.)"

The seeming depth of the base of the bill convinced me as to Western but in retrospect juvie Western would never show the fairly dark smudgy markings on the sides of the breast and the flanks (as seen clearly in Pane #1.) And to screw up twice after looking at the image in Pane #8 is just plain embarrassing. Thanks also to Chris.

[Ilija Dukovski]

Axel, It does seem a bit hard. If I look in one book I'm convinced of one thing then if I check another book for confirmation-the images never seem to be similar. Lately I have been going on well known photographers sites and reconfirming my initial thoughts. I am going to have to get that Shorebird book Artie keeps talking about.

Denise I got mine few weeks ago. Highly recommended!

[denise ippolito]

Thanks Ilija. I appreciate it.

[Arthur Morris]

I have just what you are looking for I think and will be able to post it in a week or so.

[john jackson]

Is this a trick question? Western Sandpiper moults into 1st winter plumage in early autumn. Here is a shot from England in 5 October 2005. There are some juvenile feathers left on this bird, but very few.

[Arthur Morris]

Is this a trick question? Western Sandpiper moults into 1st winter plumage in early autumn. Here is a shot from England in 5 October 2005. There are some juvenile feathers left on this bird, but very few.

Hi John, I agree that this is a juvie Western but disagree with this statement: "There are some juvenile feathers left on this bird, but very few."

I am only seeing one scapular molted to first winter; the rest are all moderately worn juvenile feathers....

[john jackson]

Hi Arthur

I guess "very few" was a bit strong, as this bird is still moulting and there are juvenile scapulars (black centre and rufous edge) still in the upper scapulars. But, the lower scapulars are grey with a thin blackish central line, not juvenile grey with a black centre that widens into an anchor mark. There is also a mixture of first-winter and juvenile tertials. The bird has lost its juvenile mantle lines, much of its brown and rufous tones and does not have the colour wash across the breast. All in all, I think this bird has crossed the line from juvenile and into first-winter plumage.

The point I was trying to emphasise in my initial post is that Western Sandpiper moults early compared to many sandpipers and will by mid to late autumn be in first-winter plumage. This contrasts with, for example, Semipalmated Sandpiper which will typically still be in full juvenile plumage in October (at least the ones that turn up here are).

Cheers

John

[Arthur Morris]

Hi John, First two images, then comments.

I am pretty sure that we would both agree that the bird here is a Western Sandpiper in pretty fresh juvenal plumage.

Note: with that huge bill this is obviously a female.

[Arthur Morris]

And that the bird here is a moderately worn juvenile not quite as fresh as the bird above. While the bird in your image has a few molted upper scapulars, it is my belief that all of the lower scapulars are the original juvenile scapulars looking quite the same as those of the bird above (unless I am confusing my feather tracts). In the same vein, I believe that all of the mantle feathers are original juvenile feathers. The mantle lines, the brown and rufous tones, and the color wash are all lost due to feather wear (not to molt). This is entirely typical as juvenile feathers are less durable than adult feathers and wear more quickly. The incoming first winter scaps are a light grey with a very thin dark line. Those feathers in your image have much broader shaft lines.

I stand by my statement that the bird in your image is a juvenile just beginning to molt to first winter. And I believe that your failure to take feather wear into account led you to the wrong conclusion. I do have an image that would further address this issue but it was created with the pre-production Canon EOS-1D Mark IV that I was testing and I do not have permission to post those images yet. I will when I can.

[Dave Brown]

Hi Artie,

I have to say I do agree the the UK WESA does have more than a few juv feathers and I would still classify it as a juv moulting into 1st winter plumage.Anyway,just wondering Artie,when was the above bird photographed?

Dave

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Artie, I have to say I do agree the the UK WESA does have more than a few juv feathers and I would still classify it as a juv moulting into 1st winter plumage.Anyway,just wondering Artie,when was the above bird photographed? Dave

Hi Dave, That's what I said, juvie molting to 1st winter but a long way from classic first winter. Back in a sec with the dates. Gotta get to the office computer....

Both were Jamaica Bay WR in Queens, NY. The fresh bird was photographed on 8-24-07, the worn one with its head in the water was 8-24-08. A curious coincidence as far as the dates but it shows that the timing of migration, molt, and feather varies among individuals of the same species....

[Wayne Richardson]

Is this a trick question? Western Sandpiper moults into 1st winter plumage in early autumn. Here is a shot from England in 5 October 2005. There are some juvenile feathers left on this bird, but very few.

Hi John

Is this the Dorset bird? If so, it was present from 25 Sep to 15 Oct 2004 & was the 7th for the UK.

I have to agree with Artie that there is a lot of juvenile feathers on this bird. The contrast between red scapulars & grey coverts is a good ID feature for Western Sandpiper. Only White-rumped Sandpiper is similarly coloured & that has much longer wings.

Cheers: Wayne

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Guys, Asking for a bit of a favor here. I'm wondering if anyone has any images of juvenile Western sandpiper taken in October,preferably the first half of Oct,but I'll take what I can get. I had a very interesting bird today and would like a few images for compasasion purposes. Western sandpiper is very rare in Newfoundland( 2 records).This bird might turn out to be just a Semi Sand,but showed some characters,including a really nice long WESA looking bill that were good for Western Sand. I can't find many/any images online of juvie Western Sands from October. If anyone has an image it would be great if they could post it here. I will only be viewing the images on this site,not posting them anywhere else or anything liek that. Plus we could then talk about the birds that are posted. Sometimes separating Semi Sand from Western Sand can be difficult even for experienced observers,especially in 100km/hr winds. It was a windy day in Newfoundland today...what else is new :) Dave Brown

Any images of your bird? Did you get view of the bill tip? Eastern female semis can have bills that overlap in length with some Westerns. I will post my OCT 8, 2009 image as soon as I am permitted.

[john jackson]

Holding my hands up on the seemingly ever-increasing number of juvenile feathers that appear on the bird in my pic each time I look.

Question: the lower scapulars on Arthurs' birds have dark anchors (first image) or teardrops (second); those on my pic have a thin line of blackish down the centre. Are the US experts telling me that difference was caused by wear and not moult? Or is it individual variation?

Wayne: yes, that's the one.

[Arthur Morris]

Holding my hands up on the seemingly ever-increasing number of juvenile feathers that appear on the bird in my pic each time I look. Question: the lower scapulars on Arthurs' birds have dark anchors (first image) or teardrops (second); those on my pic have a thin line of blackish down the centre. Are the US experts telling me that difference was caused by wear and not moult? Or is it individual variation?

Hi John, Let's go to the video tape and make sure that we are on the same page. Please let us know what feather tracts are represented by the following colored dots:

Yellow: (3)

Purple: (3)

Green: (1)

Black: (1)

Red: (1)

I am not too good with upper vs. lower scaps and have trouble identifying all of the greater coverts. As you know, the way the wing is folded and change the way the feathers lie and make definitive tract ID problematic at times.

Sorry if I came off as trying to tell you anything. I am trying to share whatever knowledge I have by sharing what I think I know. If you have been following some of the other threads here you will see that I am trying to learn too. :) Also, I don't mind be told that I am wrong and being corrected. Happens quite often.

[john jackson]

Hi Arthur

Without resorting to books (more fun that way), there are three rows of scapulars (upper, middle & lower). This bird is, I think, moulting its scapulars and I don't think it has a full set (as well as having a mixture of juvenile and 1st-winter feathers). If I have my feathers tracts correct, your single green, red and black dots are wing coverts. Your purple dots are what I think are the lower scapulars and your yellows middle scapulars. The upper scapulars seem to be in a confusing state of moult. What do you think? The softness of my image doesn't help (I posted it because it fitted the species & age that Dave was seeking, not as a sharpness masterclass!).

No need for any apology; always happy to be corrected.