Friendly Southern Lapwing :)
Well, here's a backstage image of the Southern Lapwing I was able to photograph these past days in Esquel, south of Argentina, this bird is very pacient with me and I had a great time :) Enjoy!
Editorial: BirdPhotographers.Net discourages photographing nesting birds at such close proximity.
Our ethics policy is: If you love your subject more than your photography, you will cause no harm.
Oh my gosh Ramon you definitely have the touch. It is totally amazing to me that you were able to get that close. I remember seeing these birds in the Pantanal but was never able to capture a really good image. Will look forward to seeing your posts. Many thanks for sharing the behind the scenes.
This is exceptional brother. the bird whisperer at work. :) Thanks for sharing.
Macro bird photography ... what a thought :)
This is excellent Ramon...I wish we could get that close to the birds here in Miami...:D:cool:
why waste money on super telephoto :) wow thats close
I find this very disturbing. No bird on eggs is going to be friendly with someone four inches away.
In the pic you posted in Avian, the poor bird is showing the spurs, a sign of confrontation, not friendliness.
I can't believe you did this.
+ 1Originally Posted by Fabs Forns
so not commented on your image in Avian
Last edited by Harshad Barve; 10-10-2009 at 10:24 AM.
100% agreed.
Ramon please don't do it again.
Ramon,
I am sure you had no intention of disturbing the species and were not aware about their behaviour. Most of the times we don't know the behaviour of the species and hence we think that they don't fear us. Just imagine, you are with your kid and a huge elephant comes close to you. Will you feel comfortable? The way the elephant is much bigger than us, similarly we are much bigger than a lapwing. In this case, the lapwing is clearly not comfortable.
I believe that no photograph is more important than the welfare of the subject. If I can't go close to a tiger with a 17-40, then I won't try it with a lesser species which can't harm me. Inches away from a lapwing on eggs is definitely not a good idea.
I am quoting this from the Nature Photographers Code of Practice of Royal Photographic Society:
"Photography should not be undertaken if it puts the subject at risk. Risk to the subject, in this context, means risk of disturbance, physical damage, causing anxiety, consequential predation, and lessened reproductive success".
Under the Birds at Nest category, they state:
"
Photography of birds at the nest should only be undertaken by those with a good knowledge of bird breeding behaviour. There are many competent photographers (and bird watchers) who lack this qualification". I would add, competent or not, photographing inches away is certainly not on. I believe in a few countries, it is a criminal offence.
I hope you take our gentle admonishment in the right spirit.
Cheers,
Sabyasachi
Last edited by Sabyasachi Patra; 10-10-2009 at 06:03 AM. Reason: spelling
In this image the bird is obviously stressed.
BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.
BIRDS AS ART Online Store: we will not sell you junk. 35 years of long lens experience. Please e-mail with gear questions.
Check out the new SONY e-Guide and videos that I did with Patrick Sparkman here. Ten percent discount for BPN members,
E-mail me at samandmayasgrandpa@att.net.
Thanks for the link Fabs. In this image in Friends and Family the bird is obviously more stressed than it is in this image.
BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.
BIRDS AS ART Online Store: we will not sell you junk. 35 years of long lens experience. Please e-mail with gear questions.
Check out the new SONY e-Guide and videos that I did with Patrick Sparkman here. Ten percent discount for BPN members,
E-mail me at samandmayasgrandpa@att.net.
Since I am not a animal behaviorist I won't pass judgement on the long term effect doing this caused or the ethics in photographing such scenes. For me I would rather be safe then sorry. That being said Roman states he spent several days with this bird which would indicate that it was not stressed out to the point of abandonment. But on the other hand as Mr. Morris stated in the OP we probably would not have been informed if those actions had.
count me in for not doing such thing as it always disturb the bird where we think they are really allowing us to get close and enjoy.. i wish every one should give honor to the avian life arround us by not disturbing as they give us lots of joy and things back.. ramon nothing personal bout it but if you were here in india and posted it would became a huge controversial thing and you may have to loose your years credit. so please just count that time you spend to earn credit and the time you can loose in .. still you're incredible photographer to me ..
Guys, Lapwings preety much never abandon their nest, usually these birds will get "stressed" (as you said) even if you walk at more than 30 feet from their nest, I find this particular subject when walking towards some ducks, I sat on the ground without even noticing that at less than 5 feet from me this adult was nesting, the bird didn't even screamed or anything. In this particular picture the bird is shouting because I probably moved the camera too fast but when I moved slowly the bird would just stay very calm and quiet.
I understand that some of you might not do this, that is fine with me and I respect that, but please do not "suggest" in you comments that I acted with negligence or something because that isd not tru, I have been working with Lapwing for more than 8 years and I know that these birds do not abandon their nest because of this type of aproaches. :)
Here are two more images... now tell me.. does the bird look stressed, worried or anything.. He/She doesn't even have the spurs out :)
Last edited by Ramon M. Casares; 10-10-2009 at 11:11 AM.
One more guys :)
Yes, the bird is relaxed in the last two images that you posted. But it is screaming at you in the first frame here, and in the original post in Avian, it was threatening you with its spurs and was also obviously distressed.
BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.
BIRDS AS ART Online Store: we will not sell you junk. 35 years of long lens experience. Please e-mail with gear questions.
Check out the new SONY e-Guide and videos that I did with Patrick Sparkman here. Ten percent discount for BPN members,
E-mail me at samandmayasgrandpa@att.net.
Just another important data... In more than one oportunity this guy even got up to eat and came back to the nest with me being right there. One could not ask for a less worried bird...
As I said Artie, the bird got scared if my movements were quick, but after realizing than I just needed to move slowly so not to bother the Lapwing :)
Mital said this well. You have enormous respect, but I feel I cannot justify this in any respect. Having no wishes to throw any stones, my only concern being the effect this could have on viewers. (many have applauded the visual content without thought to the ramifications. We have a responsibility. I fear very much a line has been crossed, whether intentionally or not, and on this occasion the barrier of whether I want so I shall, rather than should I has taken priority). Again, Mital has said it well, and I trust that enough has been said, to someone that does commands huge respect Ramon. This is meant in the kindest way. Dave
Don't worry Dave, I am not taking it personally at all, I undersand what you all are saying and I myslef had never worked with nesting birds for the same reasons you are all talking abut, but with Southern Lapwings I DO know that the nest is not put in risk. :)
Difficult to trust
Ramon.
When you upload an image for critique or anything you are, in some way, accepting what other members think about it, in this case, my impression is that you were not careful enough with this bird. Is very easy to make a mistake and then try to run away with excuses. To me the bird seems very stressed, no matter what you say about it. Don't take it personal, is just my point of view.
I have had several encounters with great birds in the wild, but they have been in their nesting period and what? well I just walk away and leave them alone.
Last edited by Juan Carlos Vindas; 10-10-2009 at 01:55 PM. Reason: Typo
...not my problem Harash, it is yours.
Last edited by Ramon M. Casares; 10-15-2009 at 08:38 PM.
I know that by uploading the image here I have to accept the critiques and comments that anybody may want to make about the image, that is preety obvios to me after 2 years participating, I am doing that exactly actually, everybody can say whatever they want about the shot itslef or the technique, the only thing I ask is that people that doesn't know me for real take the liberty of questioning me or judge my values and respect for wildlife. If someone doesn't belive what I say... well, that is not really my problem as I cannot do more than what I have done... and that is to say the truth. Not enought to someone...? Well, too bad.
I don't have the need to excuse myself to anybody here Juan... I am only explaining what the situation was just becasue I find the exachange of opinions very interesting and usefull... but please, don't think for one second that I feel like I owe you or anybody any explanation or that I am excusing myslef...
Last edited by Ramon M. Casares; 10-15-2009 at 08:37 PM.
As I said in my first post here, there is no way for you to absolutely know in advance that your actions did not put the nest at risk. If you returned tomorrow and found that the nest had been visited by a predator how could you know that the human odor, your human odor, did not lead the predator to the nest?
It is one thing to believe something to be true, another thing to absolutely know that it is true.
BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.
BIRDS AS ART Online Store: we will not sell you junk. 35 years of long lens experience. Please e-mail with gear questions.
Check out the new SONY e-Guide and videos that I did with Patrick Sparkman here. Ten percent discount for BPN members,
E-mail me at samandmayasgrandpa@att.net.
Well, we are making progress at least. Above you are admitting that your actions distressed the bird.
BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.
BIRDS AS ART Online Store: we will not sell you junk. 35 years of long lens experience. Please e-mail with gear questions.
Check out the new SONY e-Guide and videos that I did with Patrick Sparkman here. Ten percent discount for BPN members,
E-mail me at samandmayasgrandpa@att.net.
Artie, there is not really any progress to be made :) if I would've wanted to pass this as if the bird was completely confortable I would have just uploaded any of the other two images in this thread... the same goes with the image in the Avian forum, I have images of the Lapwing were hi/she is calm and comfortable, but I like way better the one showing the spurs as it is visually more dramatic and powerfull. Now, those defensive atitudes and poses didn't last much more than 5 seconds... the problem here is that an image is a moment frozen in time forever and the screaming Lapwing with me being so close gives aparently a different sensation than what was really happening :)
Ramon,
We all know that if the bird moves off the eggs, the temperature will drop. Hence, to avoid that the lapwing or any other bird will not try to be away from the nest even if it is threatened. So we see the spurs and even after being noticeably alarmed it is not off the eggs. When we look at your clothes we get an idea about the temperatures prevailing. Do you think it would be a good idea for the mother to leave the eggs in the open to get cold? It means the eggs are not likely to hatch. We have respect for you as a photographer, however, in this case the means adopted to photograph it was certainly not right.
Sabyasachi
Ramon,
I have to say that the two additional photos of you so close to the bird would add to most people's concern, not reduce it. It would be one thing to move in briefly, though even that could attract predators. To stay close for extended periods, and even take time to make images of your close approach, is even more worrisome.
I can't find out much online about Southern Lapwings; I understand they have better defences than other plovers, but surely they are not the top of the local food chain. What can you tell us about their terrestrial and avian predators, and why would your extended presence not potentially attract predators to the nest?
By the way, the wide-angle photo of the bird in its habitat that you posted in Avian is a fantastic image. I suspect, however, many editors would have a problem with the close approach and possible harrassment. The guidelines of many publications and contests disallow harrassment (which they get to define, not the photographer).
Sabya, My understanding is that cold is rarely if ever harmful to eggs except in extreme situations. Heat kills both eggs and young.
BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.
BIRDS AS ART Online Store: we will not sell you junk. 35 years of long lens experience. Please e-mail with gear questions.
Check out the new SONY e-Guide and videos that I did with Patrick Sparkman here. Ten percent discount for BPN members,
E-mail me at samandmayasgrandpa@att.net.
I agree with Cliff but would like to add that the editors of many magazines with strict no-disturbance/natural situation only policies for their photos have, over the years, been quick to use images of obviosuly distressed nesting birds and obvious set-ups when the picture fits their needs.
Surprisingly, the magazine that mmost lives by its policies is Ranger Rick. At least they let their readers know what the truth is.
BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.
BIRDS AS ART Online Store: we will not sell you junk. 35 years of long lens experience. Please e-mail with gear questions.
Check out the new SONY e-Guide and videos that I did with Patrick Sparkman here. Ten percent discount for BPN members,
E-mail me at samandmayasgrandpa@att.net.
I am sorry for the daleyed answer, I have very little internet access here in Trevelin.
Sabyasachi, we should define "not right".
Artie already answered about the eggs getting "cold" subject but again, I have been photographing Lapwings for a lot of years now and I have never witnessed any nest abandonment, these birds would usually get off the eggs and leave the nest even when you (or a predator) are walking about 120 feet away and will not return until the danger has pass, so the fact that a Lapwing leaves the nest it is not really a risk to the eggs and this Lapwing only left the nest to feed and came right back to the nest with me being right there, she never left the nest because of my presence, she even landed near me and just walk to the nest to keep incubating... I can't say much more than what I have already told you guys, I do not expect to change anybody's opinion, but at least give me some credit and don't just assume that I would simply put a nest in risk for a shot... becasue I wouldn't... I did know the species I was photographing.
Thank you all for all your opinions, info and honest critiques, I am sorry many of you have felt ofended by this image. Again, I really apreciate all the info given, the comments and advice. I thank those who have been respectfull when giving their opinions and all who has participated in this debate here and the one in the Avian forum as it has been, at least to me, very interesting and usefull.
Last edited by Ramon M. Casares; 10-13-2009 at 12:58 PM.
Ramon,
Isn't it possible (even likely) a lapwing leaves the nest when a predator approaches because the eggs are much better camouflaged than the bird itself is? If so, wouldn't the presence of a photographer show a smart predator like a crow just where to look for an omelet?
There are no crows or so down here and although you have a point, and although it could have been just luck, this wasn't the case.
I have read very carefully all of your opinions and there are a few things that I would do diferently if I ever have such and oportunity, I wouldn't spend as much time as I did with this bird, but, and I am sorry if some of you find this to be wrong, I would do it again.
Peter, I see what you are saying, but I will not limitate myself becasue of what others might try, we are all grown ups and each one knows if one is qualified to do this or that... I will never say "don't try this", sepcially right after having done it myself, I am nobdoy to tell others what to do ... IMO.. one knows when one is doing something right or something wrong...
Ramon,
You may know lapwings, but I assure you there are tons of new photographers who know next to nothing--or actually nothing--about their subjects and have no idea when they are doing something wrong. And there are people who know, but don't care. If you think about it, if everyone knew right and wrong and acted accordingly, the world wouldn't be anything like it is. Be assured that any potentially destructive practice you publicize on the internet will be imitated by some (and maybe by many) who don't have your knowledge of the subject.
You have a good point Cliff, I didn't thought of it that way, then if the moderators feel or think it would be better to remove both posts, this one and the one in the Avian forum, I will have no problem with that. :)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote