Three days of shooting with 7D-AF performance and IQ

[Vivek Khanzode]

Arash

I have been away from the PC for some time and this thread has taken a life of its own. That said, I seriously doubt people are questioning your skills or motives. I can speak for myself, and I am not doing that for sure.

I am _always_ interested in other users experiences with stuff I might potentially buy in the near future and hence I am reading this thread in earnest. I am also interested in knowing more about this situation in particular, because I have been there recently and I know it is a challenge to follow those raptors.

Thanks for keeping us posted and I appreciate the time you have put into this.

-- Vivek

[Kent Wilson]

Hi Arash --

My 7D is scheduled to be delivered tomorrow, so I have read with great interest your experience with the camera. And I appreciate your efforts to inform those who own or are considering buying the camera. I hope that you continue posting your results, but if you are returning the camera, I guess we will lose a valuable resource.

Just because some folks don't like the message is no reason to criticize the messenger. So thanks for your input.

[Flavio Rose]

Thanks too Arash for all this information. I am hoping that your results are due to a bad copy.

[Jia Liu]

Some interesting comments in this post
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/821123

[Doug Brown]

I've been reading this thread while at the same time formulating my own opinions about the 7D, in particular about its prowess at BIF. Arash likes to photograph flying raptors against a varied BG (and so do I :D). IMO that's one of the toughest things you can ask an AF system to do. Bird photographers pay top dollar to learn how to photograph BIF against varied BGs, but few can do it with any degree of consistency. I'm not sure it's a fair test of the 7D's AF system when you photograph flying raptors that occupy a very small portion of the frame against challenging BGs. This sort of test is heavily weighted to the skill of the photographer (and I'm not trying to suggest that Arash isn't accomplished at BIF) as opposed to the quality of the AF system.

With regard to the sample images with a red focus box on an OOF subject, I'm not sure what those prove. Just because the selected focus point is resting on the bird doesn't mean that the camera has had time to lock focus. Imagine a scenario in which you've got the bird dead center but it moves suddenly out of the AF point. You lose focus, are then able to get the bird back in the center of the frame, and take a photo. The bird may or may not be in focus depending on your camera settings and on whether or not you've re-focused prior to taking the photo.

I've done quite a bit of BIF photography with the 7D and I'm overall impressed with how well it tracks BIF. I have not yet had the chance to photograph raptors against a varied BG but look forward to that opportunity. Here's a 100% crop of a Forster's Tern (DPP RAW processing only- no sharpening) that was flying considerably faster than the Pelican I posted yesterday ;).

[arash_hazeghi]

Hi Doug,

I appreciate your comments and insights, which I weigh heavily given your experience and expertise in bird photography, some of the photos you have posted here are among the best I have seen. You always speak very highly of Canon gear, I remember last year you mentioned that 50D's AF "ran circles around MKIII" when you first reviewed the camera, I am glad that Canon gear has been working so well for you :D
I also agree that raptors against foliage is the toughest subject for AF and does require lots of skill many of which I lack, but I just wanted to add a few small points I thought might be worth mentioning.

1) My skills, regardless of how poor they are, were not a variable in the field, the variable was the gear, given my set of skills gear A produced 10X better result than gear B, unless a supernatural phenomena improved my skills dramatically when I switched gear back and forth.

2) The point you raise about subject movement is improbable for static subjects such as a perched hawk that I posted, the 7D was shooting at 8 fps, the interval between two subsequent frames is 125 msec, a perched hawk cannot rock his head back and forth which such high frequency that it would throw off the AF.

3) People including myself pay top $$$ to improve their BIF skills, however they do pay top $$$ for gear too. When you pay $200K to buy a Ferrari you don't intend to drive it at 65mph on a state highway but rather at 180mph on a race track. When you pay a premium for a 7D or MKIII you expect it to deliver in challenging situations, not the situations when a lesser camera can also achieve relatively good results, above is a shot of a Froster's Tern I took back in 2004 with very modest gear, a 20D and a 300 f/4 IS + 1.4X TC, now the 7D does that too, but that's not what I was hoping to get it from it. As you know very few flight images with plain dull sky BG make it to the top, you always want to show a bit of habitat so unfortunately complex BG is a nature of bird photography.

Any ways, I am going to test a second copy of 7D with another fellow photographer tomorrow, the outcome of the test will determine my verdict and my future business with Canon however I don't plan to report my findings here as they may not be accurate enough. Whatever the outcome I hope that the issues I experienced were either due to my poor skills or a bad copy and others here will have better luck.

Best and I look to forward to shooting with you some day and learning more about your skills and expertise :)


Arash

[Stu Bowie]

Hi Arash,

I have been following this thread for some time now. I have been active on this site for a while, and one gets to know others work with regards to image quality. I for one, have no doubt that there is nothing wrong with your skills as a photographer, especially with BIF. IMHO, I feel your first 7D may have been a dud, ( as you say you now have a second one to try out tomorrow )

I agree, a static image should not produce poor IQ, thus reinforcing the fact that your camera may have been up to specs. I hope, and am sure that your re-trials will work out well, and hopefully you will report back and state your findings. Cheers.

[Stuart Price]

Hi, first time poster and a relative novice compared to some of you guys.

I got the 7D last week, here are 2 BIF shots, converted fusing only DPP (in Standard Picture style) but resized in Photoshop. Taken with the 100-400L, exif data is intact.

Not cropped at all.



And a 100% crop.



And again.........





I used Zone AF on these ones.

I came to the 7D directly from a 400D and could never have gotten pics like these against busy backgrounds. Having never used an xxD let alone a 1D I'm loving the 7D, some of you folks may have higher standards then I do though.........

[Kent Wilson]

Hi Doug,



Any ways, I am going to test a second copy of 7D with another fellow photographer tomorrow, the outcome of the test will determine my verdict and my future business with Canon however I don't plan to report my findings here as they may not be accurate enough.

Arash

Hi Arash --

I sincerely hope that you will reconsider this decision. Those of us who are much less skilled can benefit from your experience and what you learn.

[Doug Brown]

I remember last year you mentioned that 50D's AF "ran circles around MKIII" when you first reviewed the camera

For the record, I still feel that way. But I also use the Mark III as my primary body because I get a good percentage of keepers with better IQ and all of the benefits of a 1-series body. Artie also made that same statement regarding the 50D. "Nobody believes me when I tell that that I have more confidence in the accuracy of AI Servo AF with the 50D than with any camera I have ever used, but it is true. My MIII is doing great with that on the 800 but the 50D is just killer."

I do agree with your first point that your skill set was not a variable in the field, and I want to stress that I question neither your abilities nor your results. I suspect that you have a defective 7D body.

Regarding your second point on the static shot, a lot can happen in 1/8 of a second. You assume that the AF shifted. But as you know, DOF is very shallow with super telephoto lenses. A slight head movement can impact sharpness significantly. This bird was not sitting motionless; the head position is noticeably different between the two frames. Also it's not clear whether you were hand holding or using a tripod; perhaps a strong breeze moved the camera slightly between frames. Were you using single shot AF or AI Servo? My point here is that there are a lot of variables that can impact focus with seemingly static subjects.

About your third point: buying an expensive set of golf clubs isn't going to turn me into the next Tiger Woods overnight, although I sure wish it would :D!

For me the most relevant point in your review of the 7D is how you feel it compares to your 50D. The 7D is not meant to compete with the likes of a Canon 1Ds Mark III ($6100) or a Nikon D700 ($2700). I shot side by side with my good friend and accomplished flight photographer Jim Salywoda yesterday and he uses a Nikon D300s ($1800). When reviewing our files after the shoot, I noticed no significant difference in our percentage of keepers.

I'm glad you're keeping an open mind about the 7D, and hope you have a better experience with the second body. And I sincerely would like to do some raptor photography with you up in Northern California one of these days!

[James Shadle]

The subjects used in those examples don't even occupy 10% of the frame, more like 5%. Even if they were to be in focus, the image quality would greatly suffer due to the sizable cropping you would have to do.

Also, the focus squares that you see superimposed on the viewfinder aren't that big. They are just reference points.

I'm not so sure those are valid tests.

Just my two cents,

Alan

The "focus squares" were very large when compared to my Nikon D300 / D700.
If they are not actual size they are close.

James

[Joerg Rockenberger]

Any ways, I am going to test a second copy of 7D with another fellow photographer tomorrow, the outcome of the test will determine my verdict and my future business with Canon however I don't plan to report my findings here as they may not be accurate enough.

Arash,

I think it would be very unfortunate if you don't share your experiences with your second copy here and at DPreview. Believe me I can understand how tiresome and frustrating it must be having to defend your observations (and occasionally being accussed not so nicely as incompetent or worse) while at the same time others report no problem with the 7D AF. However, it is important to everyone (and that includes Canon) that experienced photographers like Romy and you point out shortcomings in the cameras - even if it's not a systematic problem but just the occasionally out of spec/defective unit - and make everyone aware that this possibility exists. After all, most likely cameras don't fall either in the clear-cut perfect or bust category but there might be a distribution of cameras within those extremes affecting more people - some of which might not realize that they are held back by their equipment.

Personally, I agree with your approach and conclusions comparing different camera and lens combinations to the 7D setup. Even if the objects in the viewfinder are small (and they are in your case with the raptors) you should be entitled to getting similar results with the 7D if you get acceptable/good results with your Nikon system or other Canon cameras.

Looking forward to hearing more about your second 7D. Best, JR

[Aravind Krishnaswamy]

Indeed, I too would be interested in to hear your findings with a new body Arash. You can just PM me if you don't want to post it here. Thanks for all your work.

[Karl Egressy]

You and others who take the time and do the tests and post them here, are doing a great favor to the rest of us who are waiting and watching the reports coming in before we make up our mind.
I personally greatly appreciate your work and others opinion and looking forward to seeing more test results.
I currently use a 40D with a 500 f 4.0 and a 300 f2.8 and can hardly wait to put my hands on a camera which does a better job with BIF.

Karl.

[arash_hazeghi]

Thanks for your support guys I posted an update from today's shoot, you can find it here

[Zenon Char]

I am interested in what Doug Brown said. I thought my 50D focus was superb. I trusted it fully in IS Servo and always got a crisp image, static or in flight. Im just not feeling this with my 7D and that goes for static shots. Something is not right. There is not much you can do to single shot center focus. A year ago I went to zoo to my favorite test site. Indoor bird sanctuary. As soon as I came home I knew I had a winner. The other day, same place, tripod, flash and the images are soft. I even shot the same bird that just sits there. Last year I had shots at ISO 100 and shutter of 1/20 of it and they were excellent. I had sharper images at ISO 3200 that I'm getting at ISO 400 with the 7D. I'm not sure what is going on. I'll try one time tomorrow.