Let's Get On Track

[Norm Dulak]

This web site has admirable objectives, as has been stated recently in a Birds As Art bulletin: "BirdPhotographers.Net: Inspirational, Educational, & Fun. Honest critiques done gently: www.BirdPhotographers.Net (It Ain’t Just Birds!)"

Would that it were always true!

But the fact is that in the past, thoughtful contributions to discussion threads have sometimes been bet with comments such as "No way Jose." And first time image posters have sometimes been slammed with nasty critiques that have been anything but gentle.

I won't point the the specific instances to which I am referring, but we all know that they have happened, and that is wrong.

This web site offers tremendous promise to those who love nature and expertly strive to capture it with their cameras and to share it with others. Let's all work together to foster this spirit of sharing and love for nature, without animosity or unreasonable criticism. And let's not discourage anyone from participating and making valuable contributions.

Norm Dulak

[Axel Hildebrandt]

Norm, I agree with your last paragraph but I don't know what to make of the rest. Your statements are so broad that it is difficult to say anything in response and I for once don't know what you are referring to, which makes a discussion impossible. What first-time posters are you talking about?

[Alfred Forns]

Would be nice to have specifics Norm !!!

[Julie Kenward]

But the fact is that in the past, thoughtful contributions to discussion threads have sometimes been bet with comments such as "No way Jose." And first time image posters have sometimes been slammed with nasty critiques that have been anything but gentle.

Norm, are you saying that the moderators of this website behave that way or is this something you've seen coming from other participants?

[Paul Lagasi]

Norm...I am a member not a moderator..ditto on what Alfred said....I read most of the threads, I've read a few, that could have been phrased a little differently....but never towards first time image posters "slammed with nasty critiques" as you put it. Most first time image posters are welcomed gracefully by all.

[Norm Dulak]

To everyone:

In posting this thread, I didn't mean to suggest that there were serious problems with BPN, but that there have been times when in my opinion things might have been handled better. A couple of examples may illustrate what I mean.

As one example, some time ago an image was posted with a disputed background element. The issue was whether the background element enhanced or detracted from the image. Doing some Photoshop work, I removed the disputed element and re-posted the image without it. I did so, not to suggest that the image was better or worse without the element, but simply to allow viewers to make the direct comparison for themselves. Some comments that followed concerning my contribution were in my opinion unduly critical of my effort and unwarranted.

More recently a new BPN contributor made his first posting, an image of a colorful Brazilian bird. In the ensuing discussion, comments were made concerning image cropping and contrast issues, all of which were at first handled by the poster and the commenting viewers in a matter-of-fact, polite way. But eventually, a comment by the poster to the effect that he had image optimization skills was countered by a comment that if that was so, why did he post an image that was much too dark and contrasty is the first place? I don't think that a contributor's skills or image evaluation judgement should be criticized in that way, especially if they are posting for the first time.

The BPN web site is for the most part an excellent resource in which everyone is treated fairly and objectively. My only point is that we should all times strive to keep it that way.

Norm Dulak

[Hazel Grant]

I guess that given the many many postings and comments made daily, there would be a few that could be interpreted as too negative, though not meant to be so by the commenter. That's the problem with non face-to-face communication. My experience, as a novice coming in a couple years ago and as a regular poster and getting-more-regular commenter, is that our moderators and members do offer guidelines for learning and improvement but also give praise and encouragement. I can tell when I'm on the right track with a posting because people take the time to guide me specifically. On a few occasions, I've posted something and get back only one comment (usually Gus) who says something like "good effort" and I know then that this one is not worth the effort--and that's ok. That's how I have learned. (I'm posting sooooo many fewer of these not worth it things now because I'm learning!) Norm, I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but I have to say that whatever was said to you, from my experience, was not done so to hurt but to guide.

[Norm Dulak]

Hazel:

Thanks for your comments. You and I (and many other individuals) have learned much from the BPN experience and will continue to improve our skills because of it. Kudos to this web site, notwithstanding the relatively minor reservations I've expressed of it!

My purpose in initiating this thread was simply to keep all of us on guard against comments that may tend to diminish the BPN experience for anyone. But you are right, that with so much information passing before us every day, that is not always an easy task.

Norm Dulak

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Norm, I stumbled across this and have a few things to say. I can remember a time or two when somebody posted a very poor repost. When I encounted this, I thank them for their efforts, state that the repost was poor or very poor, and let them know why. Do do anything less would be dishonest whether I was dealing with a BPN veteran or moderator or with a first time poster.

Secondly, I remember saying to more than a few folks that their image processing skills were poor. Why? Because their image processing skills were poor. I try to say it nicely. I am thinking that not everyone would agree with your perceptions of the various posts especially since you refrain from being specific.

At times I feel like the executioner but I try to critique each image as if it were my own and I have no mercy for anyone including first time posters. Everyone gets an honest critique from me, and I try to be as gentle as possible.

I will finish by stating that I have never been involved on a critiquing web site where the mood is as consistently friendly and helpful and lacking animosity than on BPN. Have there been a snide remark or two out in the probably hundreds of thousands of posts? Sure, but they are few and far between.

[Arthur Morris]

Hi All and Hazel,

Hazel wrote:

"...there would be a few that could be interpreted as too negative.."

I applaud your use of the words "could be interpreted"

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Again Norm, When I went back to the thread list for this Forum, I noticed the title of your thread: "Let's Get on Track." I do take issue with that title as it implies that we are off track and I think that that is not at all the case.

I do thank you for your otherwise kind words about the site.

[Norm Dulak]

Artie:

Thanks for your input. And I do think that the title more appropriately should have been "Let's Keep on Track." The forums generally run smoothly, and my intent was only to point out that there have been instances when I think things could have been handled better.

Norm Dulak

[Arthur Morris]

Thanks for understaning and for sharing your thoughts.

[John Chardine]

In Spanish there are two verbs "to be". One- Estar- refers to temporary states such as location or one-off feelings and the other- Ser- to permanent states like "water is wet". It's too bad we don't have a system like this in English because when someone says something like "your image processing skills are poor" I'm sure it is meant as "in this particular case", a temporary state- Estar. However, sometimes a comment like this can be taken as meaning that your image processing skills are permanently poor as in Ser and I don't think this is the meaning intended.

Am I making any sense at all here?!

[Arthur Morris]

Hi John,

When someone posts an image, an image that they have selected as representing their best work, and the optimization has made the image worse I feel comfortable saying, "Your image optimization skills are poor."

Do I infer that they cannot learn and improve? Never. I often encourage them to stufy various free and for sale information such as ER and Digital Basics respectively.