How can you tell a golden plover from bb?

[allanrube]

On Plum Islander, birders have been reporting a few American Golden Plovers, usually away from the beach. Whenever I shoot something I like I always think it is a bb plover. And since 99% are bb instead of golden I am right. But I was wondering, if I saw a solitary bird, like this one was, what would I look for that is different from this bird that would make it a golden?

[Axel Hildebrandt]

Looks like a juvenile Golden-Plover to me. Art Peslak helped me with IDing a young bird I photographed recently. Check the slightly yellowish plumage at the top of the head which looks very similar to your bird.

[John Chardine]

Guys- This is verging on torture trying to tell a Black-bellied Plover (BBPL) from an American Golden Plover (AGPL) IN GOLDEN LIGHT!! First I don't think you can reliably say there are golden feathers on either of these birds because of the colour of the light (which is stunning BTW, congratulations to both of you!)

Anyway, Sibley has a few suggestions on this issue. Foremost, he says that the imm. AGPL has a dark cap that contrasts with the (white) supercilium (line above the eye). Alan's bird has a paler cap that Axel's which may mean that the former is a BBPL and the latter is an AGPL. However, in neither bird does the supercilium stand out as Sibley has for the AGPL. Furthermore, Sibley says the BBPL has a streaked breast (AGPL has "indistinct grey bars") which both of these birds have IMO. Finally, Sibley says the BBPL has a white belly (AGPL has a grey one), which accounting for the warm light here, again IMO I think both these birds have.

It would be easier to diagnose these in cooler light. I wonder if it would help to move the Temperature slider to the cooler side in ACR?

[Axel Hildebrandt]

I did lower the color temperature and the head plumage looked still yellow. The slightly smaller bill and the yellow in Allan's image make me think it is a Golden-Plover. It wouldn't be the first time I get this wrong, though. :)

[Ilija Dukovski]

Very interesting problem, I agree with John on this one. The supercillium in not white
and is not in contrast with the cap here. Also, the belly is white and the flanks are streaked
not barred. My vote is BBP.

[Kirk Zufelt]

These are both classic juvenile BB Plovers. The bill is a giveaway especially in the latter bird. The AG Plover bill is much finer and smaller. They also have a much smaller head and slimmer build with longer primary projection. This isn't terribly obvious on these pics given the angle. Of course when they fly the BB Plover has obvious black axillaries.

Kirk Zufelt

[Kirk Zufelt]

Here is a juv. Am. Golden Plover that illustrates the differences

[Paul Lagasi]

When looking at these birds in side profile, the Golden plover shows a distinct wingtip extension, well beyond the tail (Petersons). This is shown in Kirk's example above. I have used this in the field. For me though the best way is to see them flying, to get a positive ID. My two cents.....

[Eleanor Kee Wellman]

I just wait until they lift their wings to identify!

[Arthur Morris]

I believe that the birds in Panes 1 & 2 are juvenile Black-bellied Plovers in fresh plumage. The lack of a dark cap and distinct eyeline suggest black-bellied. And in Pane 2, I am pretty sure that I can see the vestigial rear toe (n the rear leg) that golden-plovers do not have. (The rear toe on the front leg is hidden behind the leg itself.) Furthermore, fresh juvenile goldens would never be as white on the rear flanks as the birds in Pane 1 &2. The golden-plover in Pane 7 is a worn juvenile; the barring has worn off the rear flanks. Also, this bird clearly shows that there is no vestigial hind toe. The thick bases of the bills in Panes 1 & 2 also indicate BBPL.

[Axel Hildebrandt]

Hmm, how about this one? My best guess is golden-plover.

[Arthur Morris]

This is a perfect American Golden-Plover in fresh juvenal plumage. Note the dark cap, the slim bill, and most importantly, the barred (rather than streaked) underparts on a buff background. Also diagonostic are the barred rear flanks, again on fairly dark buff feathers. The rear flanks in juvie BBPL are much lighter(usually white) with faint streaking. Again, all from Shorebirds; Beautiful Beachcombers

[Arthur Morris]

ps: Sandy Hook???

[Axel Hildebrandt]

ps: Sandy Hook???

Thanks for the confirmation and yes, at Sandy Hook 3 weeks ago.

[Arthur Morris]

YAW. Three weeks ago makes sense as the first juvenile goldens show up in the northeast right after September 1st. Loverly image BTW.

[Arthur Morris]

Alan, Do you have any images of the bird in the first pane showing the feet. Looking back at that bird looks very golden plover-ish but for the bill.... I do not think that golden plover ever shows any light orange near the base of the bill.

[allanrube]

No Art, but I do have another shot in profile of the bird and another 1 from last year I am unsure of:

[denise ippolito]

I'm not sure but I'll throw this out there. It seems that the shape of the eye on the AGP has a different shape at the top and appears larger than the BBP. Am I just seeing things or is it true?

[Arthur Morris]

Seeing things works for me Remember, goldens have smaller daintier heads and thus the eye might look larger in that species.

[Arthur Morris]

No Art, but I do have another shot in profile of the bird and another 1 from last year I am unsure of.

Those are two easy ones. The first is an obvious juvenile BBPL, a stocky bird with a large bill with the orange areas near the base.

The second is a molting, fading adult BBPL. Note the vestigial rear toe that always indicates BBPL.

[allanrube]

OK - that settles it on the bird in post 1 as it is the same bird as the first one in post 17.

[denise ippolito]

So we should look for the vestigal rear toe as a positive ID? AGP never have one. You also said previously that " I do not think that golden plover ever shows any light orange near the base of the bill". Those seem like two really good indicators-Thankyou.

[Arthur Morris]

OK - that settles it on the bird in post 1 as it is the same bird as the first one in post 17.

That does settle it!

[Arthur Morris]

So we should look for the vestigal rear toe as a positive ID? AGP never have one. You also said previously that " I do not think that golden plover ever shows any light orange near the base of the bill". Those seem like two really good indicators-Thankyou.

YAW. And yes, the presence or lack of a vestigal rear toe is definitive as long as you have ruled out Pacific Golden-Plover. I won't even do there :)

[Dave Brown]

Hey guys,

If you are concerned about a single bird within a flock,overall structure can be very telling. American Golden Plovers are always slimmer and have a more attenuated appearance, owing to their longer wings,which extend well beyond the tertials and the tail. They will always have a daintier bill and other characters such as the facial pattern and flank barring are good indicators as well. With experience you could separate the two species in silouhette.

I highly recommend anyone that plans on seriously photographing shorebird become familiar with their identification,as well as the general feather groups.The best way to do that, is to get as much field experience as possible and a good guide. I think someone may have suggested a one already :)

Now that BBPL vs AMGP is sorted out, maybe someone could post some images of the other two species(European and Pacific) and we can then discuss the identification of the Golden Plovers. Althoguh, I've seen many European Golden Plovers in Newfoundland, (they're annual here in spring) I've never been able to photograph them.

Dave Brown

[Bill Dix]

I'm a bit late joining the discussion, but here's one more, from Sandy Hook last Friday morning. Sorry, no toes visible. In the field I thought it was an AGP because of the black wing tip and somewhat pronounced supercilium; reinforced by the NJ Audubon hotline reporting AGP's here last week. But reading the discussion I am not so sure -- the wing doesn't extend noticably beyond the tail and the rear flank is light. Any help would be appreciated.

Bill

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Bill, With the big head, huge bill with some orange tones, and the white rear flanks this is a classic worn juvenile Black-bellied Plover.

[Bill Dix]

Thanks Artie. You've confirmed what I was beginning to suspect. I'll re-label my files accordingly and resume my quest for an AGPL.

Bill

[Arthur Morris]

YAW. Good luck. Both adult and juvenile goldens arrive in early September and can be found throughout the fall season.

[Dave Brown]

Thanks to everyone who posted-this has been an excellent thread and I think everyone has learned something and has caused me to beef up my abilities in separating these two species as well. Had a nice mixed flock of 100 Pluvalis Plovers the other day,which also included a nice juv Hudsonian Godwit(a treat in Newfoundland) Unfortunately the birds were far too skittish for photos.

Dave Brown

[Dave Brown]

Hey,

If you thought Black-bellied vs American Golden Plover could be tricky,check out this site.It shows a bird from Quebec( P.Golden Plover,very rare anywhere in the east) that was presented as a possible Pacific Golden Plover. It seems that most people have settled on American Golden Plover,but a couple of very well known birders were pretty convinced it was a Pacific. I'm not usre if this goes beyond the scope of this forum,but I find this particular complex very interesting and thought it worth sharing.

Dave Brown

[Axel Hildebrandt]

Hey,

If you thought Black-bellied vs American Golden Plover could be tricky,check out this site.It shows a bird from Quebec( P.Golden Plover,very rare anywhere in the east) that was presented as a possible Pacific Golden Plover. It seems that most people have settled on American Golden Plover,but a couple of very well known birders were pretty convinced it was a Pacific. I'm not usre if this goes beyond the scope of this forum,but I find this particular complex very interesting and thought it worth sharing.

Dave Brown

Do you have a link?

[Dave Brown]

Hey,

Very sorry about that guys..here it is,

http://www.ornithoplanete.net/agp%20or%20pgp.htm

Dave Brown

[Arthur Morris]

Hey Dave,

Interesting thread and surely above our level here. With Kevin Karlson and Julian Hough agreeing on Pacific that's where my money would be. Curious as to how nobody who posted after them even considered their comments. Perhaps because they were not famous Quebec birders.... They both explained that the tertials were likely not fully grown.

ps: They could surely have used some better images...

[Peregrine Craig Nash]

I sent an email to John Chardine about this AGP versus EGP dilemma that we have over here in Ireland. Maybe I could get some further input. There are two of Ireland's leading identity experts arguing about this particular birds id . It is posted as an AGP I am of the view it is EGP it was photographed about 10 days ago. Sadly not Birdphotographers.net image quality ;-)

http://www.irishbirding.com/birds/we...hting_id=15683

If you click on the smaller images it becomes main image and again it becomes slightly larger in different screen.