Posting Critiques

[Ray Rozema]

If I may so bold as to comment about the concern about lack of critiques being posted by those who view images. I have been a member for less than 1 year. I check at least 4 forums nearly daily trying to learn more and to enjoy the great photographer. I have posted a few images but I have only once posted a critique. I don't feel qualified yet to make critiques. There are times when I see things I don't care for but I am not sure it is not just personal prefernce, thus I don't comment. Frequently my only comment would be "wow, great image" but that is not very helpful. Thus I look but don't comment. I suspect there may be many others out there that feel the same way.

Thanks Ray:)

[Ákos Lumnitzer]

I don't feel qualified yet to make critiques. There are times when I see things I don't care for but I am not sure it is not just personal prefernce, thus I don't comment.

Hi Ray

I think everyone is qualified to contribute a comment and that includes you. :)

I have no idea about art and artists for example, but would be able to say what I like about a painting or sculpture or any object without perhaps going too far into artistic details, but at least I could formulate the opinion based only feelings and preferences. Photography is no different.

Even if you think that you want to say 'Wow! Great Image!" there has to be a reason for that. What is it that makes it "great" for you? Even if you think the subject placement in the frame is great, then say that. No one expects anybody to write an essay (I s'pose) but at least a little is good, as it goes a long way.

By commenting on others' images and seeing what some of the experts have to say, you can also learn to develop your own self-critique, which can be used in field and then again when browsing through your images at home. Then with this new found knowledge you can pass onto others you "meet" online. That's what makes BPN a great place, the learning that takes place. Most other nature forums don't appeal to me at least as there are too many of the "Wow! Great image!"-type commentary, which in your own words are not really that meaningful and only add to the ego of the photographer (if pets on the back is what they seek).

Personal preference is a big part in presentation and some like tighter images, others don't. Sure there are general photographic guidelines or so-called rules out there that we can aspire and follow, but disregarding them completely at times can also yield great results.

So jump on board and say a few comments. Everyone will appreciate and you also get the return on your 'investment' - by that I mean other people will help you become a better photographer. It's a team/family atmosphere here and many issues are, have been and will be, debated or discussed in a civilized manner, which I again, have not seen anywhere else.

Look forward to seeing more of you and your images.

Have a great day Ray! :)

[Jay Gould]

If I may so bold as to comment about the concern about lack of critiques being posted by those who view images. I have been a member for less than 1 year. I check at least 4 forums nearly daily trying to learn more and to enjoy the great photographer. I have posted a few images but I have only once posted a critique. I don't feel qualified yet to make critiques. There are times when I see things I don't care for but I am not sure it is not just personal prefernce, thus I don't comment. Frequently my only comment would be "wow, great image" but that is not very helpful. Thus I look but don't comment. I suspect there may be many others out there that feel the same way.

Thanks Ray:)

Hi Ray, I have been a member a lot shorter period of time than you; I have no problem telling it how I feel!

Frankly, the fact that you do not feel qualified is a very good qualification for comment on what appeals to you. I do not comment on the technical side of an image; I have no trouble shootin' off my mouth about composition, lighting, and other "composition" issues. "Art" is in the eye of the beholder; tell us what you see with your "art - eye".

Lots of times I actually comment to my wife "Wow, so and so agreed with my comments!".

What is the worst that can happen? "So and So" disagrees with you; how else are you going to learn if you don't jump in?

Look forward to hearing from you! :D

Cheers, Jay

[Alfred Forns]

Hi Ray

Glad you brought this up I feel it is important.

Regarding getting comments you need to make some yourself. If you don't comment you are not going to get comments ... period. Why should any member comment on yours if you don't take the time to comment on theirs? As far as moderators it will get to that point ... they will stop commenting also.

As far as being qualified or not is not the point. You only say what looks good or doesn't to your eye in your opinion. If you like the image and feel like saying "Wow great shot" ... don't ... but think why is it a good picture and what do I like about it? Colors, sharpness, tonality, feel etc Don't have to elaborate much. If you don't like it say ... its tight in frame, don't like the composition, bt not pleasing, etc

In no time you will be able to give great critiques but need to start .... You will do fine and I'm sure any contribution you make will be greatly appreciated. Might want to start commenting in ETL? We like to go more in detail over there.

Artie just sent a letter to all the members and touches on this same point !!!! Still find it amazing how can anyone post image after image and never bother to comment on others, the example he sited (no name) has 138 posted images and 56 comments ... and some are to their own post.

[Jim Neiger]

I view BPN as a photographic community. There are many ways to participate in the community. Commenting on images is just one of them. I think members should be encouraged to participate, but each person should decide for themselves how they would like to participate. I don't think critique comments are more important than other forms of participation. They all have value, but the form of participation that seems to be pushed is commenting in the critique forum. What about the discussion forums and simply sharing images?

[Fabs Forns]

Jimmy, participating just posting images for others to comment and not offering critiques to others doesn't really feel like a community to me. If members do not have time to critique on others, they should not have time to request comments either. Just my opinion.
If we all go by that type of "sharing", who would be left to offer critique?

Ray, check these links on critique suggestions:

http://birdphotographers.net/forums/...ad.php?t=34941

http://birdphotographers.net/forums/...ad.php?t=35198

[Harold Davis]

Our mission and our purpose are one in the same: to help folks become better nature photographers. The goals of BPN are quite simple; we aim to become the finest educational and critiquing web site on the Internet. Each month we will bring you a wealth of articles and tips from some of the world's greatest nature photographers and digital experts. And our team of dedicated, hard-working, and knowledgeable moderators, staff, and owners, all of whom are highly skilled photographers, will offer "honest critiques done gently."

Many folks have enthusiastically joined critiquing only to be turned off when nearly all of the posted comments offer nothing substantive. "Wow, I love that one. Wish it were mine. Great shot. That is surely the best image of that species ever!" And such comments are often made even though an image has one or more obvious flaws. In addition, we will suggest ways that the image might have been improved either in the field, or in PhotoShop. Not to worry; when you post a fantastic image, we will let you know exactly why we love it.

i think that says it all!!!

[Mike Lentz]

Its evolving guys and gals... the work in progress has gotten better since I joined and suspect it will continue to go in that direction based on the effort I see being put forth by the people running the show.
I will admit, I feel disappointed by a lack of comments on my images sometimes, but then stop to think maybe I need to "participate" more. We all have different things going on in our lives that keeps us busy (I have two young kids) and sometimes its hard to keep up with every post. Anyways, it would be nice to see different people commenting on different peoples work... I see some of the same people commenting on the same peoples efforts and it gets to feeling like the good ol' boys network of you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. One more thing to consider... some people who contribute images on this forum that don't give as much CC are valueable because of the level of the product that they choose to show us. (no names) and I feel that should be taken into consideration as well.

[Ákos Lumnitzer]

Unfortunately there will always be people reluctant to participate. They probably fall off the forums sooner or later. I suppose they can be asked to participate, after all that is the spirit of being a community of photographers.

Heck, I do feel guilty if sometimes I just post an image, then don't comment for a day or two. But I do my best to catch up. Anyone wanting a lesson on how to be a big mouth, just send me a PM. :D

[James Shadle]

Jimmy said "but each person should decide for themselves how they would like to participate"
I agree 100%
Jimmy said: "I don't think critique comments are more important than other forms of participation."
I agree that on some forums the above statement is true. BPN is a critique driven teaching and learning experience.
Jimmy said: "but the form of participation that seems to be pushed is commenting in the critique forum."
Our motto at BPN is "Honest Critiques, Done Gently". We all learn from having our images critiqued and it's amazing what you will learn by critiquing other's images
Jimmy said: What about the discussion forums and simply sharing images?
Discussion forums are invaluable and IMO under utilized. Again, IMO if someone only wants to share images there are many options on the Internet. Flicker, Pbase and Facebook are great places to share your images.


If someone is truly interested in becoming a better photographer, BPN is the place for you. Offering critiques and images for critique are the most important ways to rapidly make improvement.

[Jim Neiger]

Jimmy, participating just posting images for others to comment and not offering critiques to others doesn't really feel like a community to me. If members do not have time to critique on others, they should not have time to request comments either. Just my opinion.
If we all go by that type of "sharing", who would be left to offer critique?

Fabs,

Since you directed this at me I would like to point out that I have made 633 posts on BPN and only 66 of these are posts of images. I think this is a healthy participation ratio.

My point in my earlier comments ISN'T that critiques aren't important it's that discussion and other forms of participation are important too. I see lot's of posts urging people to critique more, but seldom do I see folks encourging others to initiate or participate in the discussions. Many discussions occur in the critique forums, but these are difficult to find when they get lost amongst the critiques. They are also difficult to locate with the limited search capability here.

I like to participate on BPN and I typicaly spend more time here than any of the other forums I participate in. I don't like being told how I should participate and how many critiques I should make for each image I post. This is just my opinion.

[Blake Shadle]

If I post an image, I try to critique as many as I can while I'm online. I start with images that strike me the most, and images I think I can offer the most help. I like to think that I'm teaching others through my critiques. I can't help but repost images because there is so much more impact in seeing than just reading. I want to teach, and I want to learn. The way that I do this is through critiquing.

I can understand feeling as though you're not qualified, or being intimidated. That's fairly natural. But you have to pull the training wheels off the bike at some point. Sure, you'll probably fall over a few times. But over time you'll have learned to ride like a pro.

Harold, you make a good point ;)

[Mark Fuge]

The above comments raise good points both ways. But to be a member of anything requires participation. Posting images is the easy part. Put them up there and let others do the work. Critiquing in an honest and sensitive way is a little harder. But to not critique is to not participate, in my view.

It takes time to be here and post both images and critiques. But it takes all of us time to do so. What is gained by not participating, but to sit on the side and watch the band go by?

If you want to learn, you have to learn how to critique for your benefit, so you can learn what to look for in your images. When you learn that, you will want to help others with their visions.

What is the best way to start posting critiques? I go to my User CP site first and see what has been posted, to posts I have been interested in. I then review them and see if there are any comments I wish to add. Next I go to new posts, and do the same. In new posts there will be a lot of posts listed. I look at the subjects, posters, and topic board listing to see what I might be interested in. Then I go into the post and review to see if I can offer any suggestions. Finally, I consider posting a new image to one of the boards. Having been here a little over 4 months, I have a little over 500 posts, both images and critiques. I think that is a lot, for others who may be shy. I think it is too few for the rest of us. What your post count is, is not important. What you post is. Come on down as they say and enjoy the view.

One thing I disagree with some here on is to say "Great Image". I think you should go farther, but sometimes that is all that needs to be added to those who previously posted comments. It shows you were there and considered the image. It shows you cared enough to write something. It shows you to the image poster as a friend who cared enough to stop by and look. It gives encouragement to the poster that someone, if not everyone, liked the image. If that is your only comment on each site, it is wrong. If it is used sparingly I see nothing wrong with it. Many of the moderators do the same, unfortunately.

What can you get out of BPN other than a lot of comments? How about a lot of friends? Friends from around the world, in places you have never heard of before and places you would like to visit. If you don't become known, others will not know you. They may have seen one of your image, but they won't know who posted it, for they will not build the relationships that many of us have and continue to. Even if you never meet, you have a new friend somewhere in the world who shares your vision and your passion. Think about that and what that means to you and to them. Share your life, though your vision and they will do the same.

I share my visions here as most do. I share my knowledge here as all should. I'm not the world’s greatest photog. But I know some things that can make others better photogs. If you share you will learn, if you learn you will want to share.

Join the gang.

Make A Great Day!

[Marina Scarr]

I like to participate on BPN and I typicaly spend more time here than any of the other forums I participate in. I don't like being told how I should participate and how many critiques I should make for each image I post.

Jim, thank you for making this point. This is entirely my sentiment on the subject.

Marina

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Jim, thank you for making this point. This is entirely my sentiment on the subject.

Marina

I understand this point of view. I have never posted so much as I have done here. At times, I don't feel like commenting. On that day I take a break. If we don't do a sincere job then others would feel bad.

The point is if all of us just post images and no comments, then it will be like a photosharing site. BPN is a peer-to-peer learning site. So if members don't post and only moderators post comments, then the purpose wont be solved.

However, I also understand that nobody can force anyone to comment, as that is likely to result in comments without depth. It is a tricky situation. For a healthy community, everybody should to contribute.

I agree that the general discussion section and other sections are important as well. I have enjoyed reading Jim's postings about BIF techniques. I am not much of a bird photographer. However, if I post a BIF image, then I would definitely love to have the perspective from guys like Jim. Similarly, I would want comments form Axel, Artie, Doug, Daniel, James to name a few. Please remember that members value your comments. Some of them even send a PM to thank you. However, there is a silent majority who value your comments but don't express. So please take the effort to share your perspectives on others images.

Cheers,
Sabyasachi

[Marina Scarr]

everybody should to contribute.

It's the word 'should' with which I have an issue b/c it implies a judgment. Yes, BPN is a community and in a perfect world/community, it would be great if everyone posted critiques and pictures. However, it is not up to us to judge those who choose, for whatever reason, not to post pictures and/or critiques. Ultimately, they will probably not learn as much which is sad.

Marina

[Blake Shadle]

It's the word 'should' with which I have an issue b/c it implies a judgment.

I don't necessarily agree that should implies a judgement. Should simply means to express what is probable or expected to happen. After using the restroom I should wash my hands. Don't have to, but I should. It's for the betterment of myself and others around me.

Yes, BPN is a community and in a perfect world/community, it would be great if everyone posted critiques and pictures. However, it is not up to us to judge those who choose, for whatever reason, not to post pictures and/or critiques. Ultimately, they will probably not learn as much which is sad.

Marina.

I agree with you here.

[Marina Scarr]

I don't necessarily agree that should implies a judgement. Should simply means to express what is probable or expected to happen. After using the restroom I should wash my hands. Don't have to, but I should. It's for the betterment of myself and others around me.

One of the definitions of 'expect' in the dictiontionary is: "To consider obligatory; require." This is where some possibly have an issue. BPN is a place of refuge for many. We all have many daily obligations. It would be nice if this forum were a site we could visit without feeling obligated. Once members and/or forum contributors begin feeling presured, obligated, censored, etc., they will back away. If they feel free to contribute at their own pace, they will ultimately contribute more willingly and more often.

Marina

[Jay Gould]

One of the definitions of 'expect' in the dictiontionary is: "To consider obligatory; require." This is where some possibly have an issue. BPN is a place of refuge for many. We all have many daily obligations. It would be nice if this forum were a site we could visit without feeling obligated. Once members and/or forum contributors begin feeling presured, obligated, censored, etc., they will back away. If they feel free to contribute at their own pace, they will ultimately contribute more willingly and more often.
Marina

Actually Marina, you are right!

In the context of BPN which apparently has been designed as a critiquing/leaning site rather than a photo sharing site, the owner's of BPN have indicated their expectations:

From Fabs' Forum Etiquette Thread: http://birdphotographers.net/forums/...ad.php?t=34805

A ratio of 5 replies per posted image is considered polite and standard.

Please, help us make you and BPN better!

If you feel you are not qualified to critique, do not miss this thread:

http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ad.php?t=35198

So, yes, there is an expectation of participation in return for education.

Frankly, I am amazed that for the quantity and quality of the education provided, and the ability to post images by reference to another site, the owners permit free participation, and ONLY charge $20 for membership.

There are other photographic sites that charge 50 - 100% more than BPN; they certainly do not offer 50 - 100% more than BPN!

Once members and/or forum contributors begin feeling presured, obligated, censored, etc., they will back away.

Is that bad if they are not playing by the rules? Is that a problem if a person that is not playing by the rules and providing critiques decides to back away? What has been lost by loosing the silent ones?

To answer my own questions, "I don't think so......; nothing!".

[Juan Carlos Vindas]

Jimmy, participating just posting images for others to comment and not offering critiques to others doesn't really feel like a community to me. If members do not have time to critique on others, they should not have time to request comments either. Just my opinion.
If we all go by that type of "sharing", who would be left to offer critique?

Ray, check these links on critique suggestions:

http://birdphotographers.net/forums/...ad.php?t=34941

http://birdphotographers.net/forums/...ad.php?t=35198

Well said!

It is amazing at how many members upload their images to receive suggestions but never comment on other's pictures.

[Juan Carlos Vindas]

I understand this point of view. I have never posted so much as I have done here. At times, I don't feel like commenting. On that day I take a break. If we don't do a sincere job then others would feel bad.

The point is if all of us just post images and no comments, then it will be like a photosharing site. BPN is a peer-to-peer learning site. So if members don't post and only moderators post comments, then the purpose wont be solved.

However, I also understand that nobody can force anyone to comment, as that is likely to result in comments without depth. It is a tricky situation. For a healthy community, everybody should to contribute.

I agree that the general discussion section and other sections are important as well. I have enjoyed reading Jim's postings about BIF techniques. I am not much of a bird photographer. However, if I post a BIF image, then I would definitely love to have the perspective from guys like Jim. Similarly, I would want comments form Axel, Artie, Doug, Daniel, James to name a few. Please remember that members value your comments. Some of them even send a PM to thank you. However, there is a silent majority who value your comments but don't express. So please take the effort to share your perspectives on others images.

Cheers,
Sabyasachi

Everything must be done with respect.

For me it's simple. I don't comment on pictures of ''members'' that never take the time to comment on my work, and I say this very respectfully. Is not that I am going to die if they don't comment, but comments and suggestion are so welcome since is in this way we beginners can learn. I don't have the time to go to an university to study photography so been part of this community has lead me through a path that in other times would have been unthinkable.

[Mark Fuge]

Everything must be done with respect.

For me it's simple. I don't comment on pictures of ''members'' that never take the time to comment on my work, and I say this very respectfully. Is not that I am going to die if they don't comment, but comments and suggestion are so welcome since is in this way we beginners can learn. I don't have the time to go to an university to study photography so been part of this community has lead me through a path that in other times would have been unthinkable.

Juan,

You are right to feel that way. However, who is first? No disrespect intended and I chose to post this to the viewers. I do not intend it to be a negative on your thoughts. But, if we only post to those who posted to our images, we will not post ... For until we post, they will not have a reason to post.

It's a chicken and egg situtation. Who goes first? Once someone starts to post, they will find that others will post to them. But to wait for others to post comments on our posts, will probably lengthen the wait.

I would suggest that we post to those themes, images, posters that we find interesting, regardless of their prior action. If you do that, they will see you are there and will seek out your images and probably offer you their comments, as you have to them.

We can not post to everyone that puts up an image, so who we post to and when is totally up to us. However, if we seek out themes, images or posters that appear to be of interest, we will find posters of like mind and enjoy a better relationship with the members of the site.

Good Luck & Make A Great Day!

[Gerald Kelberg]

I neither critique or post as much as I feel I should - guilty as charged! I would like to contribute more, but don't always have time for the follow-through.
However, to address Ray's original point - formulating your thoughts about the images you look at on the site is also a way of learning and improving self critique... just you don't get the benefit of others' input on your ideas so much.
But I am a dedicated "lurker" and there are a number of moderators, members and contributors whom I will often follow as they very frequently have interesting things to say and comments to make.
I appreciated Jim's recent post and comments to the effect that image critiques are often post processing oriented. I find the PP discussion and technique enormously helpful. But I think that I also have a great deal to learn about field craft and technique that I can learn through discussions and tips that don't really require images being posted. So you will also find me lurking on the General and Equipment forums where these things get more of an airing.

Now back to work!

Gerald

[Mark Fuge]

I neither critique or post as much as I feel I should - guilty as charged! I would like to contribute more, but don't always have time for the follow-through.
However, to address Ray's original point - formulating your thoughts about the images you look at on the site is also a way of learning and improving self critique... just you don't get the benefit of others' input on your ideas so much.
But I am a dedicated "lurker" and there are a number of moderators, members and contributors whom I will often follow as they very frequently have interesting things to say and comments to make.
I appreciated Jim's recent post and comments to the effect that image critiques are often post processing oriented. I find the PP discussion and technique enormously helpful. But I think that I also have a great deal to learn about field craft and technique that I can learn through discussions and tips that don't really require images being posted. So you will also find me lurking on the General and Equipment forums where these things get more of an airing.

Now back to work!

Gerald

Hello Gerald,

No problem on posting issues. But what do you know and not know about photography? What topics would help you move forward? The time you spent writing the above could help you relate to others your interests and desires.

It would be good to see your images and like you say ... help you learn from the critiques of others. But your expertise and experiences, as well your desire to know more about photography or to get information at whatever level, can also help others here.

Lurking is ok, but participating speeds up the learning curve for all. Lurking offers you information that others need and request. While you may share their questions, knowing your questions will greatly increase your knowledge of photography.

Some of us have, or choose to have, more time than others, due to our work situation and desire to be here. I agree it is not right to impose the same posting requirements on all. However, all members should think of what they need to learn to be better photogs and what your willing to share and try to participate at that level.

Not only are most of the comments by the same people, most of the questions are as well. You can participate with either and make this a better site for all. Don't expect the "experts" to give all the tips, ask them about photography and see what they say. They will be more than happy to assist, as I'm sure you have noted with other posts.

Give it a try, with whatever time you choose to devote to it and see what you learn and who you start to relate with.

[Gerald Kelberg]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for responding specifically to me - I hope other read this too, because you are absolutely right and your comments are welcomed in the good spirit given. ;)
I'm gradually working my way up the learning curve and as my images are improving, I hope to be able to present more of them here. :eek:

Best regards,

Gerald

[Norm Dulak]

Artie's suggestion that those who post images should in turn offer constructive comments on five images of others is an excellent one. But I'd like to turn the table and suggest, conversely, that those who rarely post images try to refrain from excessive comments on remarks/postings by others.

There are individuals who rarely post images but can be seen commenting endlessly on everything under the sun on various forums. Too much participation by those who seldom go afield occasionally to capture an image is as undesirable in my view as too little.

Norm Dulak

[James Shadle]

Thanks for the well thought out replies!

We want everyone to participate, only because this is a learning site, not a showcase, show off site(showing of is OK;)). Those who participate the fullest will realize the most benefit.

We offer suggestions on how to do that. We suggest you try to do a least 5 critiques per image posted.

There are no quotas!!!!!

If you don't feel qualified to post comments in the Avian forum, sharpen you critique skills in the Eager To Learn forum.

After years and years of critique forum experience, I can say those who offer images for critique and critique other's images benefit the most.

The bottom line is you have to decide what you want to get(and how) out of the BPN experience.

Please don't violate BPN guideline rule #26 Have Fun:D

[Grace Scalzo]

I am curious on my own statistics, posting/critiques. Is there a way we can find this out? I really don't post an image of my own and then bang out 5 critiques because I may not have anything to say, or the time to think of something! But there are other times when I do not post, but chime in with a comment or two. So let me know how I'm doing.

[Jim Neiger]

Grace,

Just click on your name and then the statistics tab. You can see # of posts and # of threads started by you. If you subtract any non image threads started by you from the total you can determine the number of images you have posted.

[Jay Gould]

Some of us have, or choose to have, more time than others, due to our work situation and desire to be here. I agree it is not right to impose the same posting requirements on all.

Mark, I do not believe there are any "posting requirements" that are not self-imposed. Fabs' suggestion of 5 critiques to one image posting results in a self-imposed "posting requirement". No one says you MUST critique if you are not posting images; all that is SUGGESTED as proper etiquette is that if you do post an image post a bunch of critiques; if you do not want to critique for whatever reason the alternative is obvious.

There are individuals who rarely post images but can be seen commenting endlessly on everything under the sun on various forums. Too much participation by those who seldom go afield occasionally to capture an image is as undesirable in my view as too little.

Why Norm? If the participation contributes to BPN through threads/replies that result in valuable discussions, or replies that add to the BPN experience because an individual has a lot of knowledge but for a variety of reasons does not "go afield", why would you not want to hear from that individual so long as the comments are positive, constructive, and contribute to BPN?

[Mark Fuge]

Some of us have, or choose to have, more time than others, due to our work situation and desire to be here. I agree it is not right to impose the same posting requirements on all.

Mark, I do not believe there are any "posting requirements" that are not self-imposed. Fabs' suggestion of 5 critiques to one image posting results in a self-imposed "posting requirement". No one says you MUST critique if you are not posting images; all that is SUGGESTED as proper etiquette is that if you do post an image post a bunch of critiques; if you do not want to critique for whatever reason the alternative is obvious.

Jay, I have to say, that is a very short summation on my full text that you commented on. But those are your views and I respect them. I don't feel there are any imposed posting requirements, as I noted in the text you paraphrased. But you obviously didn't get that meaning from it. I'm sorry for that. I will try to be more complete next time. Though I thought there was enough said in that post to address my concerns.

Is that bad if they are not playing by the rules? Is that a problem if a person that is not playing by the rules and providing critiques decides to back away? What has been lost by loosing the silent ones?

A lot will be lost ... by both the community, but more so by them. By loosing them, we all have lost. But telling them they are unwanted, is not the way to keep them here until they find their place and join of their own accord. Lurkers will always exist. However, they need not exist as lurkers ... always. Let them find their comfort zone and they will find their visions. Persecution will result in the decrease of membership and then the decrease in the quality of the site. The quality of this site is not in the few who started and continue to provide it, it is in those who have come and learned to learn and share with others. The vision of the founders will survive, if we let it and let those that visit feel comfortable here, as we try to do with friends who visit our homes.

Make A Great Day!

[Stu Bowie]

I think my view is pretty simple. Should you post an image, it would be the right thing to comment on a few other images as participation. This is then two fold. You will learn from the critiques from others, where to improve, and will receive praise for excellent work on that image. There are also a lot of knowledgable folks out there who will also share their pp steps with you, so over time, you will learn and improve your own skills. You also become recognised for your abilities, and reap the rewards.
I joined this site last year, as a timid photographer, worrying about my level of photography, and even more, my pp work. I have learnt such a lot in the time I have been a member- how- participating.
Cheers, Stuart.

[Ákos Lumnitzer]

I think my view is pretty simple. Should you post an image, it would be the right thing to comment on a few other images as participation. This is then two fold. You will learn from the critiques from others, where to improve, and will receive praise for excellent work on that image. There are also a lot of knowledgable folks out there who will also share their pp steps with you, so over time, you will learn and improve your own skills. You also become recognised for your abilities, and reap the rewards.
I joined this site last year, as a timid photographer, worrying about my level of photography, and even more, my pp work. I have learnt such a lot in the time I have been a member- how- participating.
Cheers, Stuart.

Excellent point Stu. You do reap what you sow in the end. Could not have said it better. :) Love your work mate. ;)

[Jay Gould]

Originally Posted by Jay Gould
Is that bad if they are not playing by the rules? Is that a problem if a person that is not playing by the rules and providing critiques decides to back away? What has been lost by loosing the silent ones?

A lot will be lost ... by both the community, but more so by them. By loosing them, we all have lost. But telling them they are unwanted, is not the way to keep them here until they find their place and join of their own accord. Lurkers will always exist. However, they need not exist as lurkers ... always. Let them find their comfort zone and they will find their visions. Persecution will result in the decrease of membership and then the decrease in the quality of the site. The quality of this site is not in the few who started and continue to provide it, it is in those who have come and learned to learn and share with others. The vision of the founders will survive, if we let it and let those that visit feel comfortable here, as we try to do with friends who visit our homes.

Mark, as I missed the point of what you wrote; you have missed the point of what I wrote. No one, including me has a problem with lurkers. This is not about lurkers; this is about persons that post images and yet fail to critique others images. That to me is not a lurker.

While it does surprise me occasionally, often you see someone that has been a member for six or more months and they haven't posted hardly anything; a comment here or there. Great! They are lurking; they are getting comfortable with the site. Not everyone is like me and others with big mouths and an attitude to jump in with both feet immediately. Others as you say do need to find their place and join of their own accord. I totally support anyone and everyone doing exactly that.

However, you reference the vision of the Founders. It is my understanding that persons that post images and do not critique the images of others are acting contrary to the vision of the Founders.

When I said "What has been lost by loosing the silent ones?", that was said in the context of this thread. I was not referring to lurkers because this thread IMHO is not about lurking. I was referring to those that post images and then remain silent instead of critiquing others images. I do not believe that loosing BPN contributors, and BPN members, that post images and do not critique others images is a loss to the site.

Fabs' etiquette comment suggesting 5 critiques to one image post, I believe, represent the standard that the Founders would like the posters to strive for and achieve.

To repeat, lurk all you want; ask questions when you are comfortable; participate in the discussions in the Forums not involved in posting images, comment about the images of others. I totally support that approach (sorry my comment about silent ones was not clear and could be taken out of context). I believe the Founders also support that approach.

HOWEVER

Stuart said it spot on - once you start posting images

... it would be the right thing to comment on a few other images as participation. This is then two fold. You will learn from the critiques from others, where to improve, and will receive praise for excellent work on that image. There are also a lot of knowledgable folks out there who will also share their pp steps with you, so over time, you will learn and improve your own skills. You also become recognised for your abilities, and reap the rewards. I joined this site last year, as a timid photographer, worrying about my level of photography, and even more, my pp work. I have learnt such a lot in the time I have been a member- how- participating.

AND

If you are someone who posts lots of images to gain the critiques of others, and at the same time you are one of the silent ones - you do not post a reasonable amount of critiques as requested by the Founders - then I do not believe, given the purposes for BPN, that if you depart there will be a loss.

Persons that post images to gain the critiques of others and do not post critiques of others' images are TAKERS - not GIVERS - and I do not have time for TAKERS.

BPN is about GIVING!

IMHO

[Ákos Lumnitzer]

If you are someone who posts lots of images to gain the critiques of others, and at the same time you are one of the silent ones - you do not post a reasonable amount of critiques as requested by the Founders - then I do not believe, given the purposes for BPN, that if you depart there will be a loss.

Persons that post images to gain the critiques of others and do not post critiques of others' images are TAKERS - not GIVERS - and I do not have time for TAKERS.

BPN is about GIVING!

IMHO

I am glad you said that and not me. :D I am one for saying as I see. I don't have room for being gray. It's black or white, love or well, not love. Know what I mean mate? :) I have been in "trouble" before for calling a spade black. Now I am a bit more relaxed though my mouth has not abated. :eek:

[Jay Gould]

I am glad you said that and not me. :D I am one for saying as I see. I don't have room for being gray. It's black or white, love or well, not love. Know what I mean mate? I have been in "trouble" before for calling a spade black. Now I am a bit more relaxed though my mouth has not abated. :eek:

Thanks Akos. I have thick skin, broad shoulders, and I have never had a problem calling it the way I see it.

In this case, however, I am not really doing anything more than saying very directly and to the point what the Founders/Owners might otherwise want to say BUT they have to be tactful -

not ME & not YOU! ;) :p :eek:

All I have done is support the Founders Rules:

1. If you post an image it is appropriate to post approximately 5 critiques.

....

26. Have Fun - I am having a ball on BPN!!

[Juan Carlos Vindas]

Juan,

You are right to feel that way. However, who is first? No disrespect intended and I chose to post this to the viewers. I do not intend it to be a negative on your thoughts. But, if we only post to those who posted to our images, we will not post ... For until we post, they will not have a reason to post.

It's a chicken and egg situtation. Who goes first? Once someone starts to post, they will find that others will post to them. But to wait for others to post comments on our posts, will probably lengthen the wait.

I would suggest that we post to those themes, images, posters that we find interesting, regardless of their prior action. If you do that, they will see you are there and will seek out your images and probably offer you their comments, as you have to them.

We can not post to everyone that puts up an image, so who we post to and when is totally up to us. However, if we seek out themes, images or posters that appear to be of interest, we will find posters of like mind and enjoy a better relationship with the members of the site.

Good Luck & Make A Great Day!

Hello Mark!

You are very right about ''if we only post to those who posted to our images, we will not post ... For until we post, they will not have a reason to post''. But I will tell you right here that many times I have posted on others images and it seems like they don't like my suggestions, and after all, I believe, that when we upload a picture for critiquing is because we are aware that some comments or suggestions may not suit our ''needs'' you know what I mean. I am learning but in the process I like to give my point of view of what I believe is good or not, if I say something that is not right and another member correct me then there will be more knowledge spread and that's the reason why we all are here, I think. But is so disappointing for me when some times I suggest or comment and all I receive from this person is a ''there's no way I am going to remove the upper/lower branch or any other distracting thing'' I respect it 1000% since after all is his/her picture but one thing I understand, and is that when I receive all that feedback from other very talented photographers/naturalists/birders/PS masters and anyone else, I do learn!!!and that's what got me here hooked.
One thing is for sure, I am going to keep on having fun while I learn.

[Julie Kenward]

This is a great discussion! I want to add one more personal perspective to this if I may...

I came to BPN in early 2008 looking for a place to learn how to create better nature images. I had learned the basic requirements - how to work a DSLR and how to get around on the basics in Photoshop. I also came to BPN with an artistic "eye" - I didn't always know why people liked some of my images - I only knew that I was getting "good job" and "great image" on other sites for more and more of my images - but I wanted to know more!

Within three months of dabbling around in the Eager-To-Learn forum and testing the waters in the Macro Forum I was getting such outstanding feedback that my photography totally changed - and it changed because people saw what I didn't - how to make a stronger crop...how to compose the image better the next time...how to get a more pleasing lighting result...even when to clone the stick out of the back of the bird's head! Having extra sets of eyes on my images, along with constructive and critical feedback, grew me as a photographer in ways I thought would take years instead of months; but what really changed my "eye" was my learning how to comment on other people's images. If the image evoked a great reaction from me I asked myself "What's so great about this?" If it made me wince, I asked myself, "What isn't working here?" Even if I didn't know how to technically correct the problem I could still see what the problem was and could comment on that. You will be amazed how following a particular forum for a month every day will make that area of your photography so much better but - if you also constructively comment - it will really move you to a whole new place when you go to create images. This is one amazing site if you dive in and get your feet wet!

If you want to learn how to comment in a particular forum, read the comments on 20-30 posts right in a row. What affects one image often will apply to every other. Some threads will have a majority of comments about their technical specs...some will evolve around post-processing enhancement...others will show you what to look for when composing out in the field. Each is invaluable in its own way. Once you feel you understand the basics of that particular forum it's much easier to jump in with a short critique of your own. It's even okay to say things like, "I am not sure why I like/dislike this image but it sure made me feel..." Others will follow and fill in the blanks of what you aren't quite seeing yet. Just be honest and respectful and you'll be amazed at what you can learn.

[Mark Fuge]

Hello Mark!

You are very right about ''if we only post to those who posted to our images, we will not post ... For until we post, they will not have a reason to post''. But I will tell you right here that many times I have posted on others images and it seems like they don't like my suggestions, and after all, I believe, that when we upload a picture for critiquing is because we are aware that some comments or suggestions may not suit our ''needs'' you know what I mean. I am learning but in the process I like to give my point of view of what I believe is good or not, if I say something that is not right and another member correct me then there will be more knowledge spread and that's the reason why we all are here, I think. But is so disappointing for me when some times I suggest or comment and all I receive from this person is a ''there's no way I am going to remove the upper/lower branch or any other distracting thing'' I respect it 1000% since after all is his/her picture but one thing I understand, and is that when I receive all that feedback from other very talented photographers/naturalists/birders/PS masters and anyone else, I do learn!!!and that's what got me here hooked. One thing is for sure, I am going to keep on having fun while I learn.

Hi Juan,

I agree with you. There are two negatives to critiques that many people don't realize, or don't care about.

First, there is the negative, versus suggestive way of posting a critique on an image. It is easy to say "you blew it and should know better". It is better so say "While it is a nice image, I would suggest you consider ..."

The other is responding to a critique, whether it was negative or positive. A negative response is no better than a negative critique in my view. Changing the words a little can get your point across and not degrade the poster.

I have received both and I will admit that I have, unfortunately, not always said the right thing in both situations. However, if we can understand the feelings of others, we can do a better job of helping them move on. A negative in either case is not productive. It will negate the value of the comment, as the person is already probably hesitant about receiving it. Restating the comment and giving valuable feedback will get a better response and a better result.

I find that very few people here are negative, which is what makes this site superior to many. I believe that the person that posted the image did the best they could … in all cases. Not that the image is the best, but many times they did not see the fault that others do, or they did not have the expertise, in camera or PP, to correct it. We look at our own work with “rose colored glasses”. We need critique to perfect what could be perfect. We also need critique, when we are first learning, to know what is good.

Additionally, not all critiques are good and not all critiques are representative of our vision. The person making the critique has to realize that we had a vision and while it may not have come through, the fault is not with the vision but rather with the application.

Don’t get upset with critiques, either positive or negative. They both will help you grow. By the same point, both positive and negative feedback on your critique will help you provide better critiques in the future. If it is truly given in a negative manner, pass it off as an inexperienced commentor. For as you are learning how to critique, so are others. They may not know their limitations or care to change. Such is life. You can only control what you can control.

Keep a positive attitude for your work and that of others and all will benefit from your postings and you will definitely, take it from me, have more fun! ;)

[James Shadle]

Here is some food for thought.

• Consider offering your critique as an opinion ie IMO, etc.

• Consider using terms like "put the image over the top" "will make the image even stronger" or "more pleasing", etc.

• Instead of just telling a photographer that the subject should be located more left or right in the frame etc.,tell them why it should be located more left or right in the frame.

• Instead of "great image or well done" explain why it is a great image and what photographic elements or techniques make it so. It is rare, but there are images posted that are "great" and just couldn't get any better

• Ask the posting photographers questions. ie "Was the noise in the image that was mentioned earlier caused by under-exposure? The tonality of the background is lighter than a middle tone and your exposure setting was listed as -1/3 stop, from the metered value; why did you do that? Did you need to lighten the image in the conversion process or Photoshop?" Then suggest the noise was a result of under-exposure.

• If we offer our opinion on even the smallest detail, we are not nitpicking. It is attention to detail that separates good from great. At the same time, it is not necessary to enlarge the photo and critique it on elements that would otherwise be indiscernible.

• If there is a distracting element in the frame, rather than immediately suggesting it be cloned out, help the photographer with the "geometry of photography". Move left or right, up or down and perhaps that distracting element will be hidden by the subject or the angle would move the element out of the frame.

• Use reposts as a tool to communicate major changes. Reposts will lose their impact if used on images that can easily be critiqued using the written word.

• Find and point out the positives of the image being critiqued. Photographers need to learn what makes an image good or great as well as what makes it less than desirable.