Good news/Bad news - Published/without permission

[Jim Poor]

I was speaking to a client yesterday and she told me that one of my photos of one her friends dogs has been selected by Virginia Lottery for its upcoming campaign.

That's the good news. The bad is that the photo was submitted without my knowledge and the contest takes all rights to it.

I was torn between aggravation and happiness. But after talking with the owner of the dog, I think I'll just let it be.

She will do what she can to make sure I get credit for the photo, she doesn't get any compensation at all.

Once the materials are printed, I'll put something on my web-site taking credit for the shot whether or not I am given any.

I'm not sure trying to get anything out of Virginia Lottery will result in anything but the photo being pulled which doesn't really help either the owner or myself.

Any thoughts?

[Chris Hansen]

Jim,

You are probably right in your decision to just let it go. Making a fuss will just result in having the photo pulled. Hopefully they will at least include the credit line for your sake.

Good luck and God bless,

Chris

[Rod Wiley]

Jim I had a client call me and told me one of my photos that the client had purchased at a show, was on the front page of the newspaper, with a photo credit given to a staff photographer. When I called the paper the editor ask if it was possible that I had taken a photo of the staff photographers picture. I asked the editor to go to my web site and see the photo. After they realized what had happened they offered to run a two page spread about my work and up coming shows to make up for the mistake. When I send pics to the paper I aways use the ( © delete after use ) in the file name. The paper gets so many free images from the public that they can't remember where they come from and the photos wind up in the stock folder for the paper. Some times it pays to keep your cool and let things work out on their own. To say that the state uses your work is not a bad thing and will raise your prestige for future clients. Good luck Rod

[Tell Dickinson]

Hi Jim, a tricky one this and I understand why you have come to the conclusion you have. If it were me I would still contact the Virginia Lottery and explain to them what has happened and ask why there was not something the person who entered the photo had to sign, which stated it was their copyright ?

Tell

PS Congratulations :)

[Mark Fuge]

What a shame. This seems to be happening more of late, with "government" agencies pirating images. There was another story earlier about a similar case.

I see your point and maybe that is the best.

If it were me, I would consider three alternatives.

1 - Call the lottery after the image is printed and in press, afterall there is no reason for you to know now. Then they have no choice but to consider compensation.

2 - Ask the lottery for the next major winning ticket, or a sum equal to it for compensation. ;) (Partly in jest)

3 - Do what you note, but make sure the Lottery is prominently noted and send them a cut sheet of the page for their enjoyment. After all, it is also illegal to use their images for self gain. But, if they object, you can have a nice meeting of the lawyers to see who has first rights!

Good luck, your not making the wrong choice, just may have alternatives.

[Rod Wiley]

Jim there is a general misunderstanding by the public about copyright. We live in a time where we can go to web sites and download free movies and books ( pirated of course ) any time we want, you can do a google search for images and right click save as and its yours. HOWEVER when a client hires me to photograph their pet and they pay me for the job, I can't tell them they don't have the right to do anything they want with those pics. I don't even try to explain that one to them.

[Michael Pancier]

Jim, just saw your post. Did you register the photo? Was the picture ever published? If not, register it immediately and seek damages.

[Jim Poor]

Never published. It was set for the next batch to go to registration, which I suppose will go early now.

[Rod Wiley]

How did the friend come into possession of the image in the first place ? You can't seek damages from the state, on their entry form, it probably states that people must have the copyrights to enter the contest and the state would have no idea that there is a problem with an image. If the friend bought the photo for Jim he may be opening a can of worms with his client. The only thing the state would do in void the entry in which case Jim doesn't get to use the credit on his web site and has a very be misunderstanding to clear up with a client that has told all their friends about fidos pic going to be used by the state. Like they say Don't poke a skunk

[Jim Poor]

The friend is another client who was at the same shoot. The dog in question is the friends dog.

Actually it is the publisher's (State's) responsibility to ensure that copyrights are honored, so technically I could go after them, but I'm not likely to. I'm still covering all my bases though.

[Rod Wiley]

I would walk softly on this one Jim, I think the whole problem is the result of a simple mistake. There are no damages if the state doesn't publish the photo, and if they don't your client is going to be very upset. Did the client pay you for the shoot?

[Jim Poor]

The client paid for the seminar which included the shoot. Prints were purchased separately. The photo was scanned, cropped and submitted to the contest.

Right now I think I'll just let it go and take the credit when it comes out. Anything else looks like a no-win situation for everyone.

[Rod Wiley]

Ya its tuff to sell a client $ 600.00 worth of prints and then tell them they don't own the image rights, just the paper their printed on. We know what the copyrights laws are and if it was someone that stole your work to avoid paying you that would be one thing, but this is an honest misunderstanding and you can't win. All I can hear is the client telling every one she knows DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE DID!!!!!!!!!! Thats why I figure image rights for private shoots are in the package, and I don't every try to expain it to them.

[Mike Tracy]

I had a somewhat similar situation a few months ago. I had sold one time rights to a internationally recognized organization 2 years ago so they could use a image to make a educational poster available to all the elementary schools in the states. A friend of mine who is well placed in this organization emailed a copy of the cover that a govt. agency was using for their annual meeting which was in fact the image I had sold but not to them. How they got it I have no idea but a strong hunch. Since the agency wasn't profiting from it's use and had the decency to give me credit I didn't pursue it any further.

In your case I see nothing to be really gained monetarily and a lot of bad "good will" in your circle if you don't let it go but at the least credit given to you is in order.

[Jim Poor]

Well, this email just went out to about a bazillion people in her address book, so at least I got some advertising:

I was notified that the picture of my Sissy, that I cropped from a beautiful shot taken by Jim Poor Photography was selected as one to be on the next group of Lotto tickets here in Virginia. Sissy was in a Canine Acting Seminar with Laurie Williams which included a photo shoot. The contest specified a head shot so I cropped the first picture down.
I was told that there were over 9000 photos submitted and 20 were chosen. They will notify the local media so Sissy may get more exposure.

Her scans (which were attached) weren't the greatest, though :(

[john crookes]

I think in this case the state would not be held for liability as it was your client who submitted the image and it would be the client that would be held responsible for violating any copyright laws

The laws are quite specific and I think if you got a copy of the contest rules and regulations I am sure the State covers themselves against any copyrighted photos being submitted

I think it is best that you leave it as is and hope you get credit for the photo.
I may even go so far as the contact the State and offer a better copy of the photo in question as no one wants a bad photo , if it was a bad scan , to be creditied to themselves

John

[William Malacarne]

Jim

Have you talked with the client and let them know what has been done. It may make things go smoother next time.

Bill

[Jim Poor]

Talked with her right away. I think she gets the point. I phrased it in such a way as to put the negative feelings off on agencies that conduct "rights grab" photo contests rather than on her for being blissfully ignorant of the issue.

Bottom line, I'm going to let her use it and if the state asks if she has permission (though they did on the form already) she can say yes. I've offered up the original file if it is needed for the printing.