"D300&200-400 V's D3+1.4tc&200-400 on 800 ISO and above?"

[Marc Mol]

I'm currently awaiting a newly purchased D3 and have a question to ask those who may be able to shed some light on the subject.
I'm traveling to Botswana in September (this being my 5th time in Africa) for 3 weeks and I'm trying to decide which camera (taking both D300&D3) will be more suitable on the 200-400VR. The D300 has the advantage of the crop factor but loses out (IMO) when pushed above 800-1600ISO whereas the D3 has faster AF and excels in images taken at 800-1600ISO and above but loses out in the reach department. My solution is to have the 1.4tc on the D3 to get back some of that lost reach albeit at the loss of one stop.
(I'll be taking with me a D300/D3/24-70/70-200/200-400+1.4&1.7tc/Canon 500D/SB900+BB/Manfrotto 680B/GitzoGT3540LS/Markins M20/Kinesis bean bag.)
In relation ONLY to images at ISO of 800-1600 and above which camera has the nod, the D300 with no tc OR the D3 with 1.4tc?
All help greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Marc

[Lance Peters]

Hands down D3 - With or without the converter.
D3 Shines at 1600 and above.

[MichaelM]

Vote D3---

I have and shoot the D300 and D700 side by side all the time. D700 is set with auto ISO capped at 2000. D300 gets capped at 800..and that's a stretch for a hi-IQ image.

[Marc Mol]

Hands down D3 - With or without the converter.
D3 Shines at 1600 and above.

Do you have the D300 as well Lance?

[Desmond Chan]

D3 100%. It's pretty much a well-known fact that as far as high ISO performance goes, it's either D3 or D700. Even the new D90 I heard also performs a tad better than the D300 on that department.

Or you can let Fabs tell you:

http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ad.php?t=38005

[Marc Mol]

Many thanks for everyone's input, I'm well aware that the D3 out performs the D300 in the higher ISO dept, it's just that my concern was if it still out performs it @ ISO's above 800/166 with the 1.4tc?
Are you all saying that's still the case? (sorry to be pedantic)

Cheers
Marc

[Alfred Forns]

Another vote for for the D3 !!!

... but the D300 will perform well at high ISO ... don't sell it short !!!

[Tony Whitehead]

I think there are 2 issues here. From a purely high ISO performance the D3/D700 gives much cleaner images. I find the D300 very usable at ISO800 but the D3/D700 gives a similar result at ISO 3200. The second issue is image quality related to the lens. The 200-400 on D300 or D3 will give superb quality. As with any TC you are always going to give a little of that away and restrict AF speed a little so I think from a pure optical point of view the 200-400 without TC will give better quality so if reach is what you need the D300 is better.
Your question;
In relation ONLY to images at ISO of 800-1600 and above which camera has the nod, the D300 with no tc OR the D3 with 1.4tc?
I would suggest D3 with 1.4 if you're going to be working at 800-1600.
I use D300 and D700 and more and more the D700 is becoming my body of choice unless I need the reach of the D300 and even then I often find myself using the D700+1.4x in preference to the D300 without. The most common occasion on my last trip to Africa was on small birds when I used the D300 + 200-400 +1.7x which was great for morning waterhole setups on small finches - I used ISO 800 which gave decent SS and aperture options. The time the D3 would really shine is end of day when the light is fading fast and being able to push up to ISO 6400 + will buy you a few more minutes of sharp shooting time.
If you don't have a grip for the D300 I would suggest getting one and a battery so that you have the same battery and charger for D300 and D3.
Hope this helps. You'll have a great time regardless and I suspect the D300 will get a lot less use than the D3:D:D

[Marc Mol]

In relation ONLY to images at ISO of 800-1600 and above which camera has the nod, the D300 with no tc OR the D3 with 1.4tc?
I would suggest D3 with 1.4 if you're going to be working at 800-1600.
If you don't have a grip for the D300 I would suggest getting one and a battery so that you have the same battery and charger for D300 and D3.
Hope this helps. You'll have a great time regardless and I suspect the D300 will get a lot less use than the D3:D:D

Hi Tony
Yes, I do have the MB-D10 grip & EN-EL4 (from my previous D2Xs) which gives the versatility to interchange.;)
Thanks for yours and others input.

Cheers
Marc

[Jim Poor]

I've used both the D3 and D300 with the 200-400 and TC1.4. My choice? Sold the D300 and have two D3 bodies in my bag and one as a spare.

Lately, I've been shooting constantly in the ISO 3200-6400 range and as long as you get the exposure right noise really isn't an issue.

Here is an ISO 6400 example:


Camera Make: NIKON CORPORATION
Camera Model: NIKON D3
Image Date: 2009:05:09 101:25
Flash Used: No
Focal Length: 85.0mm (35mm equivalent: 85mm)
Exposure Time: 0.0010 s (1/1000)
Aperture: f/1.4
ISO equiv: 6400
White Balance: Auto
Metering Mode: Center Weight
Exposure: Manual
Exposure Mode: Manual
Comment: (C)JIM_POOR

[Marc Mol]

Great image Jim!
When needing more reach on the 200-400 have you tried the in-built crop or would you crop later?

Cheers
Marc

[Jim Poor]

Thanks Marc,

I've never used the built in crop even to experiment. I've been tempted to try the 4 crop, but have just never done it.

Honestly, if I need more reach than the 200-400 with a TC 1.7 I go to the 600 and I almost always use the 1.4 on that one.

[Roger Clark]

Marc,
I don't feel that your question has been answered, so here is my attempt. I do not have either camera, but I do have sensor analysis:
http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedeta...rmance.summary

Here is my technical analysis:

D3: 8.46 micron pixels versus D300 with 5.5 micron pixels.

8.46/5.5 = 1.54 and area ratio =(8.46/5.5)^2 = 2.4

D3+1.4x TC gives you slightly less pixels on subject than the D300 with no TC by a factor of 1.4/1.54 = 0.91.

The D3 gathers 2.4 times more ligtht per pixel than the D300. The 1.4x TC reduced that by 2x, so the ISO gain of the D3 over the D300 would be 2.4/2 = 1.2.

So shooting the D3 with a 1.4x TC gets slightly less pixels on the subject (by about 10%), but you have a 20% speed advantage. I would say it is about a wash.

So other factors could come in to play. The lens may not appear as sharp on one versus the other camera because the blur filters are different. You would have to test that.

[Bill McCrystyn]

I have been very satisfied with my D300 and the 200-400 using a 1.4X. At ISO 1600 noise is rarely a problem if at all. I did find the 200-400 with the 1.7X perhaps pushed that resolution just beyond what was completly acceptable.

One of the "other factors" Roger alluded to might have been your final enlargment size required. Beyond 13x19 you are pushing 12mp a bit and in fact the D3 would have the advantage. My needs are satisfied with the D300 but were my budget not somewhat constrained -

[Marc Mol]

Thanks Marc,

I've never used the built in crop even to experiment. I've been tempted to try the 4 crop, but have just never done it.

Honestly, if I need more reach than the 200-400 with a TC 1.7 I go to the 600 and I almost always use the 1.4 on that one.

If only I was that rich Jim! ..............Half your luck. You certainly don't live up to your surname.:D

[Marc Mol]

Marc,
I don't feel that your question has been answered, so here is my attempt. I do not have either camera, but I do have sensor analysis:
http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedeta...rmance.summary

Here is my technical analysis:
The lens may not appear as sharp on one versus the other camera because the blur filters are different. You would have to test that.

Many thanks for the detailed analysis Mr Clark.
Not quite sure what you mean by the highlighted statement?

Cheers
Marc

[Gus Cobos]

Hi Marc,
I have both the D3 and the D300...they are both very fine machines/computers with a lens attached to it...:) I would use both depending on the application at hand...I am partial to the D3; with my eyes closed...:D:cool:

[Roger Clark]

Many thanks for the detailed analysis Mr Clark.
Not quite sure what you mean by the highlighted statement?
Cheers
Marc

The lens may not appear as sharp on one versus the other camera because the blur filters are different. You would have to test that.

Marc
Each camera has a blur filter over the sensor. The blur filter mixes the signal so adjacent red, green, and blue filters measure about the same amount of light. Different cameras have blur filters that blur more or less. Traditionally pro cameras have had more blur to prevent moire patterns that a weak blur filter gives. I'm not sure what Nikon does. If the two cameras have blur filters with different amounts of blur, either camera could give sharper images in most situations (but then there is a greater chance of moire patterns).

Roger

[Bill McCrystyn]

D300 200-400VR 1.4X EFL 840mm ISO1600 f/5.6 1/400 Handheld from 20' Pontoon boat late afternoon lighting. I would say this is about a worse case senario at approx. 50' to subject distance. The Tif conversion from RAW and printed to 12x18 is much cleaner of course.

[ericbowles]

Just a couple of ideas to add to the mix.

The D300 is very good at ISO 800 and ISO 1600 should still be fine. While noise is beginning to appear, I have published images at ISO 1600.

The D3 provides 2-2.5 stops - which means that you have no worries at ISO 6400. In low light it is the clear choice. I was shooting wildlife in the Smokies recently - one of my group had a D3 and the other a D3x. The high ISO of the D3 was clearly superior in dim light.

Don't forget the AF system. While very similar, the D3 is normally a little faster than the D300. Add a teleconverter to the equation and I would guess the D300 may outperform the D3 with a teleconverter. You'll also have a faster frame rate with the D3.

All things being equal, I would probably set up in this order: the D3 without the teleconverter, add the teleconverter when needed, and shift to the D300 only when I really needed the extra reach of the 200-400 and the teleconverter.

[Bill McCrystyn]

D300 200-400VR (NO TC) ELF600 SUBJECT FLOWER 2" ACROSS AT 67'. ISO 800 F/4 1/125 HANDHELD. FULL FRAME FOR COMPARISION WITH 100% SCREEN SHOT. NO NOISE FILTERING. THREE SHARPENING PASSES WITH USM ON THE SCREEN SHOT IMAGE NEXT IN THREAD.

[Bill McCrystyn]

SAME IMAGE AND SPECS AS ABOVE WITH FULL FRAME SHOT

[Marc Mol]

All things being equal, I would probably set up in this order: the D3 without the teleconverter, add the teleconverter when needed, and shift to the D300 only when I really needed the extra reach of the 200-400 and the teleconverter.

Many thanks Eric, this is also exactly what I will be planning on doing as well.

Many thanks also to Bill for providing the images.

Cheers
Marc