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    Default For SF Bay Area Photographers

    http://www.sialia.com/s/calists.pl?rm=message;id=264810

    Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 00:08:17 EDT
    From: <Tronthorn...>
    Subject: [pen-bird] Harassment of birds at Radio Rd.
    Radio Road has become one of a premiere locations to photograph
    birds. Most photographers are level minded and stay in their boundary,
    but there are the ones as today at Radio Road, who step out of the
    boundary to the point of harassing the birds. What is the point of
    photographers walking underneath the colony of nesting Snowy Egrets,
    Black-crowned Night Herons and scaring the birds off of their nest in
    the trees next to the wastewater treatment plant. Does this even cross
    their mind that the American Crows are nesting at the plant and will
    predate on the eggs and young of the colony. What other adverse affects
    will be on the colony when the birds are away from their nest site. It is
    always unfortunate that there will always be some bad apples that ruin it
    for the rest of everybody. When this type of harassment is observed, the
    harassers should be spoken too about the welfare of the colony and also
    not to ruin it for the rest of everybody.

    Ron Thorn

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    Thanks for the post Ron.

    To me this is more important than the issue of ethics of full disclosure of digital modification. This speaks to the real purpose of ethics of photography. Hope many here read and observe so that the rest of us can continue to enjoy the sites throughout the country and world.

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    Just to be clear - I did not originally post this observation / warning. Just copied it from sialia.com to alert the community that some folks are overstepping boundaries. And giving the rest of us a bad reputation with the birders... JR

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    William Malacarne
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    Why not post this somewhere else so that more people will see it.

    Bill

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    I would agree.

    It is a statement of ethics, not to feel that it is only for SF Photographers, for the fact is that it is universally the same. Just different people who all need to learn the need and reason for photographic ethics when it comes to harassment, which is what this relates to.

    Thanks for posting. Agree it should be reposted on appropriate sites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Fuge View Post
    I would agree.

    It is a statement of ethics, not to feel that it is only for SF Photographers, for the fact is that it is universally the same. Just different people who all need to learn the need and reason for photographic ethics when it comes to harassment, which is what this relates to.

    Thanks for posting. Agree it should be reposted on appropriate sites.
    There are many bay area photographers on this site. Though this may in your eyes seem like less that appropriate venue to post this. In my eyes anywhere It can be read by these photographers that frequent
    these areas is appropriate, If only one photographer reads this here, and tries to do something about it, It is worth the effort.
    If for some reason it bothers you, please just ignore it..
    Marcus

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusArmani View Post
    There are many bay area photographers on this site. Though this may in your eyes seem like less that appropriate venue to post this. In my eyes anywhere It can be read by these photographers that frequent
    these areas is appropriate, If only one photographer reads this here, and tries to do something about it, It is worth the effort.
    If for some reason it bothers you, please just ignore it..
    Marcus
    Marcus,


    I think you misread my original post to John and the board, as indicated in your paraphrasing of it. I fully agree and encouraged John to put it out there for all photographers. He appeared to be embarrassed with his post, after posting. However, as I tried to make clear to him, this is not a SF only issue. Go to any major photo location and you will probably witness similar incidents, like crowding Elk or Buffalo in Yellowstone or other areas. An appropriate site, as noted, refers to any that he or others here can find that would attract photogs who might read it. It does not intend to imply any suggestion of banning him from posting to any site here.

    <O:p
    Just for clarification, to you and others who may have misread the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Fuge View Post
    Marcus,
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Fuge View Post


    I think you misread my original post to John and the board, as indicated in your paraphrasing of it. I fully agree and encouraged John to put it out there for all photographers. He appeared to be embarrassed with his post, after posting. However, as I tried to make clear to him, this is not a SF only issue. Go to any major photo location and you will probably witness similar incidents, like crowding Elk or Buffalo in Yellowstone or other areas. An appropriate site, as noted, refers to any that he or others here can find that would attract photogs who might read it. It does not intend to imply any suggestion of banning him from posting to any site here.

    <O:p
    Just for clarification, to you and others who may have misread the post.
    Hi Mark, Sorry for the mix up, I do understand what you are saying here, and I wish I could be a part of or all the bad situations across the country, I have always thought that being proactive instead of reactive is best and try to nip these problems that I can only see getting worse in the bud.
    The USFWS always seem to be a thorn in my side when trying to get something done, They throw so much paperwork at you, It makes it hard to do what's right.

    When I posted or added to this thread I did not do it as a Bay Area problem, but a problem in general, This could and I'm sure Is happening everywhere In the US.
    As the amount of wildlife and nature photographers has grown by leaps and bounds over the past few years, so has the amount of photographers that break the rules and the only reason I see is that they don't know any better.
    So my real message to anyone anywhere in this country Is when you see someone doing something you know as a seasoned photographer is wrong, approach them and let them know why its wrong, and what Impact what they are doing is or may cause.
    We want to keep out preserves full of wildlife, when we go out with our cameras to enjoy the hobby we love, we all should want to not only come home with nice photos of the wildlife, but a great appreciation for It and respect for there environment, breeding areas etc...
    Basically I try to do my part and give back to the hobby that has given so much to me, and made my father a living.
    As for other places I have posted, well I do keep a huge mailing list of photographers in the area here and try to give people the heads-up when something is going on that we all need to look out for.
    For the most part this seems to work as most photographers here will go out of there way to explain to a less knowledgeable person what there doing wrong and why its wrong.
    Me posting a reply to John, about Rons post on the birding list was me kind of contradicting myself as the purpose of the post was, that complaining about these bad eggs on a forum that they probably have not found yet, or read is basically a waste of time, when I see the post they typically get ignored and passed over quickly.

    So me posting here to say that posting these types of problems on a forum is of not much use, Is probably not much use....
    Take Care, and I hope that was not to confusing...
    Marcus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Fuge View Post
    He appeared to be embarrassed with his post, after posting.
    Embarrassed? Why would I be embarrassed about that post? :confused:

    While the behavior described in the post is a general problem which may happen at many different places I didn't post it in another forum here because it describes a very specific situation and observation here in the Bay area. That's all.

    I thought that another discussion thread about birders vs photographers and who is worse wouldn't be particularly constructive. If you feel so please go ahead and start such a thread.

    And I agree that one should call out photographers (as well as birders) who clearly are stepping over the boundaries. Of course, as some recent discussions (e.g. baiting, banding) here have shown it is not so easy to agree upon what is acceptable behavior and what is not.

    JR

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Rain View Post
    http://www.sialia.com/s/calists.pl?rm=message;id=264810

    Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 00:08:17 EDT
    From: <TRONTHORN...>
    Subject: [pen-bird] Harassment of birds at Radio Rd.
    Radio Road has become one of a premiere locations to photograph
    birds. Most photographers are level minded and stay in their boundary,
    but there are the ones as today at Radio Road, who step out of the
    boundary to the point of harassing the birds. What is the point of
    photographers walking underneath the colony of nesting Snowy Egrets,
    Black-crowned Night Herons and scaring the birds off of their nest in
    the trees next to the wastewater treatment plant. Does this even cross
    their mind that the American Crows are nesting at the plant and will
    predate on the eggs and young of the colony. What other adverse affects
    will be on the colony when the birds are away from their nest site. It is
    always unfortunate that there will always be some bad apples that ruin it
    for the rest of everybody. When this type of harassment is observed, the
    harassers should be spoken too about the welfare of the colony and also
    not to ruin it for the rest of everybody.

    Ron Thorn
    Hi Ron, Did you actually speak to the photographers who went off trail?
    I have been working with Jeff Brubaker about this and other issues that
    face radio road at this point.
    I do hear a ton of complaining but not much action as far as setting these
    people straight.
    I am a long time shooter at radio road, live at redwood shores and work with
    the powers that be to try to keep it a nice place for all to enjoy.

    Here is a recent email I sent out to all Bay Area bird Photographer In the Bay area...

    Hello Photographers, Well after a long talk with Operations Supervisor Jeff Brubaker, It seems that South Bayside System Authority Has had enough with photographers and they are hearing it from the redwood shores commity association.
    The problem is photographers shooting in areas they dont belong and are basiclly off limits though not posted, common sense tells most of us where to and not to shoot.
    First let me say no one on this list has ever committed a infraction and that is why I bring this problem to you for advice.

    Some of the new less experienced photogrphers have been, for a few months now, treking in areas that are not making the SBSA happy,
    IE: The area between the plant and the lake just to the left of the entrace to the plant, there have also been complaints all around redwood shores by homeowners about photogrphers shooting off the path near there homes, such as walking around some of the little waterways and lakes on private property.
    I really dont want to mention any names, though I think these same few photographers have also gone into the Avocet nesting area at PABLs
    Thus the area is now blocked off.
    All I can really ask is that should you see this occuring pleas dont turn a blind eye, but use your experience and good judgement to tell them why what they are doing is wrong and the concequences should they not stop, which in Radio Roads case may include the lake being fenced off as they did the lake behind Stanford Boathouse years ago for those of you that remember that at one time was a nice spot.

    I would hate to see this happen as a long time shooter at RR, So please do what you can to steer these newer photogrphers in the right direction so that we dont lose this area.
    I do know there have been complaints on pen birders list, so at this point posting about out of control photographers on a birding list that they probably dont read is a worthless approach..
    So please do all that you can should you see this kind of action taking place and I think we can curb this type of action before its too late and we are shooting though a chain link fence...

    I really do think if we all do our part we can prevent this from happening.
    but as i said in my email, posting on a birding list that these nes photographers probably
    have not discovered yet is of no use....
    Marcus Armani

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusArmani View Post
    Hi Ron, Did you actually speak to the photographers who went off trail?
    Again, please note that I am not "Ron" and didn't post the original warning/message on Sialia.com. I just copied it here to bring it and the general concern to the attention of Bay Area photographers. And I think that's what you, Marcus, aim to do also.

    Out of curiosity, where did you post the mail you're citing?

    Thanks, JR

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Rain View Post
    Again, please note that I am not "Ron" and didn't post the original warning/message on Sialia.com. I just copied it here to bring it and the general concern to the attention of Bay Area photographers. And I think that's what you, Marcus, aim to do also.

    Out of curiosity, where did you post the mail you're citing?

    Thanks, JR
    Sorry John, That was a PM I actually sent to Ron Thorn, My point was some photographers like to complain about these issues, but take no action, and that dosent help...
    Marcus..

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