The Art of Critique: Pats on the back are OK

[Fabs Forns]

I posted a Stickie in the Avian Forum a couple of days ago, addressing the lack of comments in the Gallery, and have received a few PMs with feedback on the subject.

So, to clarify what we mean by honest critique and our negative sentiment about the “great shot” comment as feedback:

When we are talking about avoiding the infamous great shot comment, in no way we mean that complimentary feedback is not wanted. Quite contrary, praise should be given when praise is due. What we are referring to, is that a “nice work” comment does not help anyone but the person’s ego. Now, if we see an image that we like and think that it is “nice work” indeed, we could take a few minutes and elaborate WHY we think it’s nice work.

Example: ”You really got the EXP right and the light was sweet. Getting eye contact and the perfect head angle is a plus, but the raised wings make the image for me”.
Now, how long did that take? Not much. We managed to do two things: show the poster that you appreciate the effort he put in waiting for good light and making sure the EXP as set correctly, and that you noticed he waited for the head angle and eye contact, and that he’s got good reflexes to catch the raised wings. Beginners will benefit tremendously by reading the strong points of an image. In fact, I think they will benefit as much, if not more, than finding halos or color casts.

Once an image up for critique has received two comments on, let’s say noise, no sense in beating a dead horse. Touch on other points, there are some for sure, good or bad.
Just do with respect and politeness, the same way you would like others to address you.

When someone gives you critique, believe me, they are doing it to the best of their knowledge and have taken the time to try to help you with the expertise available to them at the moment. Don’t take critique personally or get defensive. Don’t find an excuse or debate every critique offered, because by posting, you are asking for opinions, that may or may not be the same as yours. If you believe your image is perfect (and I’ve seen the case) I see no sense in bringing it up for critique. Thank the member for the time they took to offer you their opinion, and take or not take the advise given, but be appreciative of someone else’s time an opinion.

We are a very young forum and growing pains are to be expected. We are trying to shape the critiques to what we believe will be beneficial to both, the one giving and the one receiving.

And the purpose of my Stickie, remember, that if you like others to give you feedback, they are on the same boat. Reciprocate, not necessarily to the same person, but as a group of people who have a common passion, and as Maestro Morris always says: “We are all here to learn”

Now I’d love to her your side of the story :)

[Harold Davis]

there' no better place to learn than BPN. i was scared as heck the first time i ever commented on someone's image. and actually relied on the mods to correct me if i was wrong in the comments i made. after a few weeks i learned that i was gaining more knowledge by making critiques on everyone else's images than i was by posting an image for critique!!

all i can say is thanks to everyone at BPN. the publishers, the mods and the members. you guys are awesome and a lot of fun!!

[Ákos Lumnitzer]

I believe anybody who is capable of capturing an image is also able to make a constructive contribution to another person's shared efforts. After all if this is to be the community the owners/publishers envisage than no dream will be realized without the membership actually getting involved and participating. It's up to us. Just remember that critiquing is not about picking someone's image to bits, but sharing your thoughts about what you like or dislike and why, as well as what you would have done. Whether the original poster takes anything away is up to that person. This is where the experience of the pros and the guys and girls who are accomplished photographers (or artists ;) ) comes in as their inputs are incredibly valuable. I learned bucketloads about photography and post processing right here on BPN, which nowhere else would I have been able to do and I have been member a number of other nature and photography sites. Practically all of those just appear to be the "Pat on the back." type of forums or as we say in Oz "Pissing contests" where people just want praise and get uptight if someone (God forbid) points out something about their masterpieces that they were generous enough to share.

As Maestro Artie said he posts about 20 comments to one image and I reckon that is just about correct too. It's only fair to the members if a person posts an image for critique then they should also make the effort to critique back on others' too. Fair's fair I say. I think it's quite rude to just post and run ( I think I mentioned that to you Fabs in an earlier PM) without making any effort to contribute. I think that perhaps that is why we could see people commenting on selected other members' posts, because most of us probably feel the same way.

On a different note, in my local volunteer wildlife rescue group there are some 150-odd members. Guess how many actually contribute to the overall goals and outcomes. If you think all, I am afraid not, about 25% at best.

We can all put an effort in to make this the best place in cyberspace. But that needs good leadership (not implying there is not one present) and a solid member base, who is willing to get their hands dirty. :)

[Lance Peters]

Agree totally Fabs and I think when you are posting it is also worth remembering that this is like art - everyone's tastes are different - what appeals to me - might not appeal to you AND there is nothing wrong with that (of course I would preface it with a -- IMHO or For my personal tatses)

BPN is a incredible resource you can learn from the true masters here - all that is required from you is to keep a open mind and to realize any critique here is NOT a personal attack on your abilities - it is given to try and help you improve your photographic skills. Recognize that and you will come to appreciate BPN for what it truly is.....

The best resource anywhere on the internet for nature photography, the only place were you can learn from the photographers who are at the top of their game for next to nothing, The only place were years and years of experience is given to anyone who cares to ask. Truly a unique experience.

A big thanks to all who have made BPN the place it is.

[Kerry Perkins]

I totally agree with both of you. When I first joined the flock here, I was hesitant to post any comments because I did not feel confident in my own abilities. When Alfred suggested that I should feel free to offer critiques, something clicked with me and I understood that we are, indeed, "all here to learn" from each other. One of the wonderful things about BPN is the way new members are accepted and appreciated at whatever level they are on. By offering critiques we are also learning about ourselves and how we can make the same improvements in our own work. Plus, you never know when you are going to spot something that others missed.

I really appreciate the people and methods of BPN. It is simply the best learning experience on the web and I feel privileged to be here. I wll continue to give back as much as possible.

[Adams Serra]

Hi Fabs,
I am GUILTY of not commenting enough on others pictures. Thats just my nature, more of the quiet type. I will try to work on that from now on.

Adams

[Nonda Surratt]

BPN is a wonderful place! Learn loads, get to read others perspectives on an image, it works and works well.

[Harold Davis]

i wonder if anyone from other forums besides the Eager to Learn forum will respond to this thread. i guess it's not controversial enough and requires some effort.

[José Rodríguez]

Hi everybody!
As Adams Serra I'm guilty of posting so little comments on other's posts. It's a mix of lack of language abilities and a very shy character. I'm also a very beginer so sometimes I think my opinions are not worth... (I know anybody's opinion is worth). Anyway I´ll try to be more active in my comments, though I will disclose my low knowledge in the matter :-)
PD: I think the comments I get on my posts let me learn very fast in BPN, something I can't feel in other sharing sites. So a big thanks to all the BPN community!

[Jackie Schuknecht]

I try my best to critique, although technically I am not as advanced as a lot of members. Also time is a factor. If I don't comment I do read a lot and try to keep informed with what is going on. Good point about not repeating previous comments which I find a lot of people do. Maybe because they don't say how they really feel about a picture (there are always diplomatic ways to describe what you are critiquing) or lack of time. If it wasn't for the kind people who take time to comment, I never would have learned so much. Jose, your English is fine:) Do try to comment! I find it is usually the same people who comment while there are a lot of silent surfers, and people who post, but never comment on other images. Think Akos mentioned a 25 percent participation factor in his group. I don't know what we would be up to(percentage wise), but thank goodness for the people who do make the time!

[James Shadle]

Harold Said: "there' no better place to learn than BPN. i was scared as heck the first time i ever commented on someone's image."
I Say: " Not as afraid as I was posting the picture of you in family and friends(you know, the one you threatened to kill me over if I posted it:p)".

I was doing some critiques for a client, pointing out what need to be improved, along with what was done well in his images. He said "this will be a huge help, I can only tell you what is wrong with my images. I have no real idea what is right about them".

"Great Shot" helps no one.
A balanced critique offering suggestions for improvements (if needed) as well as detailing the elements in the image that make it great (is it really great?) can help everyone.

James

[Ákos Lumnitzer]

Hi everybody!
It's a mix of lack of language abilities and a very shy character. I'm also a very beginer so sometimes I think my opinions are not worth... (I know anybody's opinion is worth). Anyway I´ll try to be more active in my comments, though I will disclose my low knowledge in the matter :-)
PD: I think the comments I get on my posts let me learn very fast in BPN, something I can't feel in other sharing sites. So a big thanks to all the BPN community!

José

Everybody's input is valued and important, including yours. That's why BPN is the finest online nature photography community. Your English is fantastic amigo, do you really, really want to hear my poor Spanish? :D

Keep commenting as everybody is here to learn. :)

[Christopher C.M. Cooke]

Agree totally Fabs and I think when you are posting it is also worth remembering that this is like art - everyone's tastes are different - what appeals to me - might not appeal to you AND there is nothing wrong with that (of course I would preface it with a -- IMHO or For my personal tatses)

BPN is a incredible resource you can learn from the true masters here - all that is required from you is to keep a open mind and to realize any critique here is NOT a personal attack on your abilities - it is given to try and help you improve your photographic skills. Recognize that and you will come to appreciate BPN for what it truly is.....

The best resource anywhere on the internet for nature photography, the only place were you can learn from the photographers who are at the top of their game for next to nothing, The only place were years and years of experience is given to anyone who cares to ask. Truly a unique experience.

A big thanks to all who have made BPN the place it is.

Says it all.

I generally refrain from commenting as I don't believe that I have much to offer as most here are superior to myself in quality and technique and feel that any attempt to critique would be rather trite on my part.

I am always blown away at the photos here and sometimes feel like simply posting WOW! and reading the comments of the other great exponents of the art here but I do sincerely appreciate what people post and will make an attempt in future to point that out.

What a place this is!

[Grace Scalzo]

To those who say they are beginners, or not technically advanced, I would say that you may indeed be just the person who brings a fresh perspective to the table, something totally out of the ordinary that those who have been doing this for a while may not see or notice in the same way that you do. Please critique, I always get excited when someone new says something about one of my images.

Just an fyi regarding the suggested five critiques for each post, sometimes I go for quite a while without putting anything new up of my own, but I continue to critique if I have something to say. So I hope that gets taken into consideration, and that no one gets offended if I post something of my own and you don't see five immediate critiques following, ok?

[Raul Quinones]

Here is another beginer...
I was very active at one point, but stop critiquing when I caught myself looking at a picture and just critiquing base on what I have already learned on this forum, to be specific if I saw a picture with the most common "flaws" such as; busy background, wrong head angle, branch cutting the bird, composition too centered, noisy backgnd... at that point I was afraid that I was loosing my own vision and just becoming a "parrot".

I am a major lurker and still learning lot from this forum, struggling still with what image I really like, until then it is hard for me to critique.

The good news is that I have found few photographers which I love their work and always looking forward for their posts.

Saludos, Raul

[Julie Kenward]

Just an fyi regarding the suggested five critiques for each post, sometimes I go for quite a while without putting anything new up of my own, but I continue to critique if I have something to say. So I hope that gets taken into consideration, and that no one gets offended if I post something of my own and you don't see five immediate critiques following, ok?

I think that's absolutely okay, Grace. I often only have a few moments at a time to comment in the forums I moderate but then try to head over to another forum when I have more time. It doesn't have to be sequential posting to be effective critiquing.

Also, for the newer members, remember that part of every photograph is built on technique and the rest is built on emotion. If you don't feel comfortable telling someone they got the exposure right or what to try next time, comment on how the image makes you feel. Does it move you? Make you sit up and take notice? Do the colors or the subject matter or the lighting speak to you? It's okay to critique on "gut reaction" when you are building a library of knowledge on the technical merits of photography.

One last word: Don't be afraid to critique a moderator's image! We need a second pair of eyes as much as anyone else and truly value the comments of everyone who participates. I have grown so much over the past year of being at BPN and it's been because 1) people critiqued my work constructively and 2) I learned to critique theirs - both sides have been invaluable to me as aphotographer and an artist.

[Gail Spitler]

Hi All
I think this is a very important discussion for BPN. I wonder if we all, especially those of us over at ETL, might benefit from learning more about what might go into a more thorough critique. Perhaps once a week or two, one of the moderators might select an image and do a more extensive critique. By learning more about all of the ingredients that go into an outstanding image(including luck, oooops that was skill wasn't it), each of us learn more about improving our own images and/or increasing our photographic repertoire.

I think learning to identify the things that are right in an image is terribly important both in our learning from our own images and when commenting on the images of others. It helps us realize that we are progressing and evolving in our own photography.

I would be strongly against any limit on the number of critiques per image. The number depends on the image and who's looking at it.

Cheers
Gail

[Arthur Morris]

Great thread Fabs; thanks for starting it. I would still love to see each of you post five critiques for every image that you post, 5:1. Right now my ratio is 24:1. And as I have said before, anyone can offer a substantive critique. The level of your photographic skills and/or technical knowledge has zip to do with it. What do you like and what do you not like and why.... Get to work!