Is photographing at Gatorland or The Alligator Farm like photographing at a zoo?
Please vote in the poll and add comments if you would like to.
Yes it is.
No it is not
Somewhat
Gatorland and The Alligator Farm
Is photographing at Gatorland or The Alligator Farm like photographing at a zoo?
Please vote in the poll and add comments if you would like to.
One has to remember that all of the birds at these attractions are wild. They come in to roost and to nest in large numbers because they are better protected. Only the gators and crocs are captive. In a way, it is similar to baiting birds in that you know they are always going to be available to photograph...but they are wild nonetheless. It's good to have a "sure thing" to practice one's photographic techniques.
I would be curious for more information! Is it because these places are man-made environments? And not true nature? --- or because you have to pay to get in, with tourists? -- Or you think they should be labeled separately like captive animals usually are? Or because it just "feels" like a zoo while you're there?
Just wondering :D -- I was just at both, for the first time, in the last 2.5 weeks and had an amazing time!
I think they are classified as a zoological parks?
Photographing at either is difficult but so is the zoo. I don't look down at image coming from either.
I say no at least as to the birds. The birds can leave if they wish--they are not fed and do not depend on humans for their care.
I said somewhat because the birds are wild and free to come and go, but the atmosphere is more like a zoo and all the tourisits and park facilities give it that zoo like feel. I prefer wild environments and fewer people, but the photo ops at these parks are outstanding.
Jim Neiger - Kissimmee, Florida
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I echo what Jim says about the atmosphere but I have never been to the Alligator Farm. As far as the actual rookery is concerned I look at it as a completely natural environment. If they bulldozed the entire place the birds would still come and go. It's not much different then when we create man made reefs and the corals and fish take up residence.
No it is not........there are other "wild" places that birds come and go....but they are fed. If we use the argument that because we have man made facilities there.....then it's a zoo.....then all NP could be thrown in and then Yellowstone is the biggest zoo in the world! The animals congregate there because they aren't dummies......they know hunting isn't allowed......so it's a safe place.......all they have to do is deal with the tourists. When they do cross the borders......not good for them!
As long as they are free to leave at any time and aren't fed ......then they are wild IMO.
I have to disagree with Roman about grouping national parks in with these man made attractions. The national parks were here long before the hand of man ever touched them and although we may have constructed roads and such in the national parks we did not build the parks like humans did at both the alligator farm and gatorland also both parks were built with optimal viewing locations as tot the sun and such can not compare them with a national park were nothing is feed also
John
It is Rookery season and I find this to be an interesting question. I felt the question would generate a lot of discussion and it looks like I was correct in that assumption.Originally Posted by Maxis Gamez
What other reason could I have?
I am impressed with the replies, keep them coming!
The state of Florida could be classified as a zoological park. Unlimited tame, colorful birds and wildlife surrounded by photographers!
Hey John,
Do you remember seeing the images of the bears feeding at the dump in YNP??? It used to be a favorite past-time.....and everyone would go out in the evening to watch......and it's pretty recent. I believe our NP have done a pretty good job.....but if you've ever been in Yellowstone in the summer.......you would see what I mean. I also think the Grand Canyon S. Rim in the summer qualifies as does Yosemite after memorial day and any summer weekend. Even RMNP....with it's close proximity to Denver has animal issues. Just ask a ranger about how people act with bison in the park or the elk. This is not a American phenomenon....I have pictures of bighorn.....with thier hoves inside a Suburban window....In Banff NP.....eating from a kids hand. I have never seen that at Gatorland or St. Augustine....but I'm sure it does occasionally happen.
I would say that they feel like a zoo, due to the people and the "tourist" setting they're in... But I think of the images taken there as 100% natural, compared to a zoo, where I feel like it's captive photography.
Remember, I said like a zoo. Not that they are a zoo.
Well each is a zoo. However, the birds are wild and free.
I voted no as the birds are free to come and go and are not fed. Would you classify the Serengeti as a zoo just because the animals are prevalent and tolerant of the Land Rovers?
Yet to get there - One day - voting somewhat on the basis of the commenst above and what i have read.
They are labeled as zoological parks and the Alligators get fed.
Having said that, birds come and go as they please and the only resemblance to a zoo is that they are readily available, in greater numbers that you would fine in a zoo.
The reason birds like the places is because gators protect them and their nests from other predators.
I have never been to Gatorland, but the Alligator Farm, where I go at least once a year, offers many opportunities for flight, close range nests with eggs or chicks, and birds in breeding plumage and displaying.
What would be the difference between Gatorland & Alligator Farm & or a boat or beach and bait for birds to photograph?
There are rookeries all over Florida's coast which can be reached by boat only which are used for commercial photograph opportunities.
It's hard to draw a line or opinions for me as long as the birds are free to come and go
Renate
Either way you look at it its a zoo !!! Having said that it is one of the best places to work on your photographic skills. Can work on just about every phase of your photography from flight, to isolating subjects, working with flash, exposure etc. Difficult to find a places with so many opportunities .. one after the other !!
I like to look a the final image and judge it as such. If you never been there I would consider a go to place !!!
I have always found these kinds of questions to generate very sensitive and extreme views in some cases. Having a very deep love of nature and always awe-inspired by the beauty around me that the Creator gave us, I find each opportunity to photograph birds, scenery, etc. to be exciting and worth all effort to do so. However, there are occasions that make these opportunities much easier than others. When I was a kid growing up in Florida there wasn't the kind of growth and build-up there is now. We were able to come and go on forested land and the truly wild places of Florida as we pleased. Unfortunately, I didn't give it much thought that we could do so. Who could have foreseen the type of buildup that you see today?
What I am getting at is that it is much easier today to photograph wildlife up close with the abundant areas set aside such as Gatorland, Alligator Farm and yes, even Anhinga Trail. Access has been created by man to these areas, hopefully with the intention of educating others so that they can come to appreciate what we have. Going out into the forest, setting yourself up in a blind, and waiting or stalking an animal in order to photograph it in its natural habitat is much harder. I don't believe you can compare the two efforts together.
When you can go to those areas mentioned above and photograph something with perfect backgrounds, animals in perfect plumage, with no stress involved, it is different than going in the wild and getting that same shot. It doesn't mean that the image crafted at one of those places mentioned is not as beautiful to look at. If the photographer who took the image did not manipulate the photo through Photoshop and it is truly their work you are looking at, I give them credit. Same thing goes for the photographer who goes into the wild (the truly wild, like forested areas) and takes his image and then shows it off to others. Both can be considered art. However, the photographer knows, if they went to one of those places and walked right up to the animal and was able to craft an image after hundreds of clicks perhaps and hours of working with the same bird, it should not be considered the same as a truly wild image and it should be duly noted in the post. This does not mean this should not be considered as a nice image, just let the audience know that is where you got it, and I have no problem with that.
In direct answer to James' question, I feel that is like a zoo-type environment. You've given the animals a place to be where they know they are safe and no one is going to harm them. Those are controlled conditions and violators are ejected from the park. The animals know they can come and go, even though they are wild, and no one will harm them. Would I photograph there if given a chance? Most certainly. I would love to have all these stunning pictures that many post in my portfolio, but I get more satisfaction from going out into the wild and taking my image of nature in its natural setting. And let me tell you, in Maine, it is one of the greatest challenges you will ever face.
I think that some people who see some of the great images coming from the Alligator Farm or Gatorland (and who haven't visited either place), might be misled by some of the amazing images posted online. It is really easy to make a lot of bad images in both places.
You are correct. It is a challenging place. That's why many big time workshop conductors work at the Alli Farm on a regular basis. Great place for learning.
I would agree with Fabs and Al that these places present a great learning environment. I am all for learning and take any opportunity to do so. I have never been to Alligator Farm or Gatorland. I would love to go, at least once or twice, :D, and see the egrets etc in such abundance. Here in Maine you see them mostly through binoculars.
Michael Pancier has a great link to article in the General Forum about the guy how lifted an image of Barack Obama and used it in his famous poster. He gave the original photographer no credit and now is in court over it all. In the past it was music everyone was downloading, without paying for it. Now it is movies and images of someone else's work.
What I want to make a point of is this. It seems many folks have no issue with taking a shortcut to learning, getting ahead or acquiring something by another's efforts. We are missing out on a lot by not "paying our dues" sort to speak. Knowing the hard won whys and reasons for why we do something makes you a better person.
I am all for going to parks, zoos or other controlled places to make images or just to watch and learn. But lets give credit to those who go the extra mile and make images in the natural environment and in a natural setting the credit they deserve. And one more thing; I love the images a numger of artists post here from controlled settings. You can make a bad image anywhere indeed. Believe me, I done that too. :D
I regularly visit the numerous parks in Florida and generally do so when I know birds will be there. I want to be productive with the small amount of time that I have.
Last week I went to Honeymoon Island to photograph the nesting Ospreys and Eagles. Next week I will go to the Venice rookery and the next week possibly to Ding Darling. I would like to get out sometime with James in his boat - precisely for the same reason - access to birds in a restricted environment where I can photograph freely.
I visited Gatorland for the first time a few weeks back and thought it a great place to get images. The alligators and concession stands didn't interest me - but the rookery seemed to be a very "natural" environment - as though the park were built around it. While there I did not consider it any differently to the several other places I mentioned and did not think of it (the rookery) as a "zoo" or animal park. Were there some fenced off areas at Venice with alligators etc. and were you charged an entrance fee - it would not be a great deal different. In future I will visit again and will not be concerned about its status.
For me photography is the issue, not the environment. Personally I don't like the elitist attitude that declares that for an image to be "real" it should be taken in some remote Amazonian rainforest where the photographer has spent 6 months escaping head-hunters (glad that I do not find that here). I would love to take 6 months off to photograph in the wild! However with the few hours I have I will go where I can, when I can and only care about the images I'm left with.
Bottom line for me.
They are the best of both worlds!
James
What a great question... and it has been an interesting time reading all the different viewpoints on the subject. This is the type of question that has no real "black & white" answer, so my answer is "Somewhat". Both places have animals on display and paying guests, so they are a zoo. However, the Rookery sections are inhabited by wild birds with the freedom to come and go as they please, so the subject matter is technically wild. The above mentioned Rookeries themselves are no different to shoot in than one in the wild when it comes to clutter, however the birds are much more acclimated to people having many generations raised in a tourist environment.
One other point no one has really touched on and that is the amenities offered at Gatorland or the Farm that are not really found in a wild Rookery. Both places offer raised wooden walkways for easy movement, food and drink, and restroom facilities. Gatorland also has rain huts with benches, power, and even wireless access within the Rookery... definitely not something you would find in the wild! So yes... it is like a zoo, and no... it's not!
Thanks for the question and comments, was a fun read :)
Interesting note on this. I have talked with the owners at both locations. Alligator farm rookery was unintended. It had been developed as an expansion of the park area for the gators, when all of the birds started showing up. As in all real estate dealings, for the birds it was location, location, location. The birds found a safe shelter for nesting and suddenly the AF had a new attraction.
Gatorland was specifically designed and built to copy on the success of AF. They saw what was happening in St Augustine and decided to build and design it as an area where wildlife photographers could come and work. That is why they offer some better facilities, with wider walkways, huts, and the observation tower. I was told they had wanted to do the same thing the Alligator Farm had done only, bigger and better.
As for the birds, definitely not a zoo. The birds--though many are acclimated to humans, are wild, free, and unrestrained. So not a zoo or even like a zoo. As for the gators and the rest of the critters, definitely a zoo. I am surprised that nobody has commented on the natural history aspects of the birds and the gator farms. It is not simply a matter of location, location, location. At St. Augustine, there is lots of available habitat right outside the fences and no birds ever nest there. Why nest inside the fences? The gators off protection against ground predators like raccoons, opposum, and cats.
As for the story that Gatorland was built so that it would attract wildlife photographers, I would like to hear that from Mike Godwin. For way too many years early morning and late afternoon access at Gatorland was either difficult or impossible to arrange. Not so anymore. For many years the folks at St. Augustine were much more on the ball as far as catering to the early entry/late departure needs of serious photographers. If you are at either place on a clear day when all the tourists are there then you are not a serious photographer.
BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.
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For the record, the Gatorland Breeding Marsh & Bird Sanctuary was built in 1991 as a natural breeding area for the alligators. This was the main purpose, as at the time, Gatorland was also a working alligator farm and wanted to increase the number of gator hatchlings produced on-site. We knew, based upon what had happened at the SAAF when they did something similar, that the birds would probably come... and they did!
It took many years for Gatorland's Rookery to become what it is today, but at the beginning it was not designed for Photographers per se, but more for general wildlife viewing. One thing to keep in mind is that Gatorland is much larger than the SAAF, with many more visitors... we knew we had to have large walkways to accomodate wheelchairs and strollers and groups of families. We built rain huts so folks could find shelter during the almost daily summer showers, and a nice 3 story Observation Tower so people could view the entire 10 acre area from many different perspectives.
While the Gatorland Rookery was not specifically built for Photographers, it is certainly big enough to accomodate both tripods and people being designed to handle larger crowds. But as Artie stated, Gatorland had never catered to the Photographers, and there was no real program in place to handle early or late access to the Rookery. Gatorland's main focus has always been on the tourist, so the park was only open from 9:00am to 5:00pm daily... 6:00pm in the summer. As a business, it was not economically feasible to keep the park open earlier or later for the occasional photographer, so there was no thought given to a Photography program.
All that changed last year, when I started the "Dawn to Dusk" program at Gatorland specifically with the Photographers in mind. After spending a lot of time talking with many different Photographers, I felt it was important to "open up" the Rookery for everyone's enjoyment, and that by doing so, enough people would participate to cover the costs associated with the program. Gatorland is a family business, and as an amateur photographer I took to heart the negative impression we had with some folks, and made it a personal mission to change that to a positive.
We now have a clearly defined program in place for Photographers and Birding enthusiasts, with set days and hours of extended access. From the comments I have received and the posts made here and on other sites, the program is working, and everyone that visits has a great time. Personally, despite the rather long hours, I'm having a blast meeting all of you, and of course... I get to see the birds every day. It's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it! :)
Mike Godwin
Gatorland
Hey Mike, Thanks for chiming in. Lots of interesting stuff. Not sure if you remember, but several years ago I urged you guys (without much success at the time) to consider and arrive early/stay late plan for photographers. I am thrilled that you have finally seen the light.
ps: My job is tough too!
BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.
BIRDS AS ART Online Store: we will not sell you junk. 35 years of long lens experience. Please e-mail with gear questions.
Check out the new SONY e-Guide and videos that I did with Patrick Sparkman here. Ten percent discount for BPN members,
E-mail me at samandmayasgrandpa@att.net.
Hey James I have not seen you in about four years. I can only speak for the St. Augustine Farm since I live nearby and have never been to Gatorland. I remember a good friend of yours tell me, a few years ago, that he hates the A.F. Maybe he's changed his mine. I do not know.
It can be very frustrating. Just because so many birds are there does not lead to a high success rate for me. It's difficult to isolate your subject and get a great BG. Fabs was right on with her analysis on this point. I tend to set up the BG or chose only good ones before waiting for the bird to pose in an exciting behavior.Think about the vibrations on the boardwalk , twigs that can ruin an otherwise nice image. One also has to deal with the lighting issues that can limit your images. What about the pole at the end which definitely affects flight shots. I offered to go home and bring my chain saw back for a well know professional photographer last week. I thought he might take me up. All this issues are present in the wild but its easy to get over confident at A.F. Great images hear are great images IMO just like in the wild.
All in all, I enjoy going to the Alligator Farm. I feel its not an avian zoo if one does not consider the captive parrots and other related birds. The rookery is definitely IMO not zoo like. It's the kind of place where you need to use many techniques i.e. fill flash at times, artistic presentations, pan with your flight shots and basically reach into your bag of tricks to get successful images.
People who have not been there may not realize the many challenges. I will be there tomorrow. I'm the one with the nasty looking knee brace after going through micro fracture surgery on my patella. It takes patience for me to move around these days but I feel its the most needed photographic skill at A.F.
____________________
Charlie Wesley
St. Augustine Beach, FL
Last edited by Charles Wesley; 05-04-2009 at 08:19 PM.
Haven't been there yet. But as for the vote, based on the above, I feel it is a free to shoot location (not referring to any entry fee). The birds are there, therefore the photo ops are as well. If you market as Artie does, you have to follow the rules. Otherwise, what difference does it really make. I shoot at zoos and LCS to maintain and improve my camera skills, as well as to enjoy the critters there. If I were to market and the policy was Natural Only, I would require that they provide the definition. For I too feel that what is the difference between this and YNP on the 4th of July! Try to find a parking space at a buffalo herd congregation area!!
Therefore, I don't really care. I would shoot for the enjoyment and market what I could if I would. I would follow their specs, but for others I would willingly receive their tokens! :D
Mark, There are no rules for marketing images so no concern here. All they want is an image that fits their needs....
BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.
BIRDS AS ART Online Store: we will not sell you junk. 35 years of long lens experience. Please e-mail with gear questions.
Check out the new SONY e-Guide and videos that I did with Patrick Sparkman here. Ten percent discount for BPN members,
E-mail me at samandmayasgrandpa@att.net.
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