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Thread: Noise Reduction Primer and Questions

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    Publisher Arthur Morris's Avatar
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    You can see the thread from which this thread was adapted here:

    http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ad.php?t=23809

    This Surfbird was photographed in La Jolla with the Canon EOS-50Dand the 500mm f/4L IS lens on the Mongoose M3.5 and the Gitzo CF 3530 LS tripod. This species is one of the warier shorebirds on the cliffs so getting close required lots of slow movement...

    Don't be shy; all comments welcome.

    Oops. Forgot the EXP: ISO 400: 1/2000 sec. at f/4 set manually after histogram check. With the BKGR changing from dark blue to pure white when a wave broke to anywhere in between it was mandatory to be in manual mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by bill kominsky View Post
    Absolutely stunning Maestro and waiting for my 50-D to do the same, wonderful image and superb quality. Artie please tell me a good starting point for the P/S noise reduction. Bill
    Thank you sir. In cases where I can easily select the BKGR, I usually use the Magic Wand followed by Refine Edge at the defaults and then put that on its own layer. Alternatively, I will paint a Quick Mask when faced with a complex BKGR. (I will soon be sharing info on an absolutely amazing selection plug-in that can accurately select feathers and fuzz...)

    Once I have the selected area on its own layer (Control J), I start with Axel's oft-recommended settings for Filter/Noise/Reduce Noise:

    Strength: 5-10 depending on the noise
    Preserve details: 45%
    Reduce Color Noise: 45%
    Sharpen Details: 0%
    Remove JPEG Artifact

    At times I use higher settings for Perserve Details and Reduce Color Noise and have even experimented with higher settings for Sharpen Details. When you do experiment I would recommend working at 600 or 700% maginifaction.

    The final piece to my NR puzzle is to run a 1-2 pixel Gaussian Blur on the layer, again working at 600 - 700%

    I am going to copy this to Educational Resources and ask some questions. And I will see if I can add some NR images at 600%...
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    Publisher Arthur Morris's Avatar
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    Questions:

    #1: What plug-ins are folks using if they do not do their NR in Photoshop?

    #2: For folks using the various plug-ins like Noise Ninja, do you usually/always run NR on the whole image or just on the BKGR?

    #3: For folks using NR during capture or conversion I would love to hear the details.

    #4: Yikes, almost forgot this one: What camera body and what ISOs??
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    The images are as follows:
    a-600% section of the converted RAW.
    b-same section with Axel's base Photoshop NR settings applied.
    c-same section with NR as above plus a one pixel Gaussian Blur.
    d-Same as b- with two pixel Gaussian Blur applied.

    Notes: Each of the JPEGs have been sharpened. I selected all but the (top edge of the) bill and ran Refine Edge on the selection.

    ps: Notice how beautifully the Refine Edge protects the detail along the edge of the bill. It is 1000 times more effective than simple feathering...
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    Peregrine Craig Nash
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    Would you post the original raw file so one can see a before and after. I use Neat Image generally on the whole photograph.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine Craig Nash View Post
    Would you post the original raw file so one can see a before and after. I use Neat Image generally on the whole photograph.
    This is a (generically sharpened) JPEG of the RAW as it came out of ACR after being converted to a TIFF.
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    Super Moderator Daniel Cadieux's Avatar
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    #1: What plug-ins are folks using if they do not do their NR in Photoshop?

    Noise Ninja

    #2: For folks using the various plug-ins like Noise Ninja, do you usually/always run NR on the whole image or just on the BKGR?

    Usually just the BKGR...very, very rarely on other parts of the image.

    #3: For folks using NR during capture or conversion I would love to hear the details.

    I must admit I use noise reduction much less than before. When I do use it I do it as the last step before output sharpening and only to BKGR (I don't use it during capture or conversion). I select the subject and perch, inverse selection, apply noise reduction on BKGR, then inverse selection again to sharpen subject/perch. I find the default settings usually (but not always) good when applied only on backgrounds. Some tweaking may be needed depending on noise levels and details to apply it on. I assume we all are familiar with the fake plastic-looking results on birds when we are too aggressive on the noise reduction!

    I find this works well, but I will be interested to see what others do or suggest :-)

    #4: Yikes, almost forgot this one: What camera body and what ISOs??

    Canon 40D, normally on images with ISO 640 and above


    P.S. That gaussian blur tip is an excellent one that I will surely try out. Thanks Artie!
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    Last edited by Daniel Cadieux; 11-12-2008 at 02:41 PM.

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    #1: What plug-ins are folks using if they do not do their NR in Photoshop?

    Neat Image Pro as a plug-in to Photoshop.

    #2: For folks using the various plug-ins like Noise Ninja, do you usually/always run NR on the whole image or just on the BKGR?

    I apply Neat Image noise reduction with default settings over a duplicate of the whole background layer. I rarely find there is loss of detail in the subject.

    #3: For folks using NR during capture or conversion I would love to hear the details.

    I use Breezebrowser (with smart noise reduction set to Off, and no sharpening applied) to convert to tiff or shotoshop psd. As a very first step in photoshop I duplicate the Background layer and apply Neat Image noise reduction over the whole layer using the default settings. Then follow usual workflow outlined in ABPII.

    #4: Yikes, almost forgot this one: What camera body and what ISOs??

    I use Canon 40D and 400D bodies and almost always apply noise reduction at ISO400 and above.

    Below are some samples for Canon 40D at ISO800:
    a: 600%, smartsharpen 100/0.8 (via screengrab)
    b: 600%, Neat Image noise reduction applied, smartsharpen 100/0.8 (via screengrab)
    c: 100%, no noise reduction, manyk sharpened
    d: 100%, Neat Image noise reduction applied, manyk sharpened

    Image: Canon 40D, EF500 f/4, ISO800, 1/160, f/8, evaluative, no flash, Yellow-faced Honeyeater, subject distance 5.38m.
    Last edited by Simon Bennett; 11-12-2008 at 03:58 PM.

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    a: 600%, smartsharpen 100/0.8 (via screengrab)
    Last edited by Simon Bennett; 11-12-2008 at 03:41 PM.

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    b: 600%, Neat Image noise reduction applied, smartsharpen 100/0.8 (via screengrab)
    Last edited by Simon Bennett; 11-12-2008 at 03:42 PM.

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    c: 100%, no noise reduction, manyk sharpened
    Last edited by Simon Bennett; 11-12-2008 at 03:42 PM.

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    d: 100%, Neat Image noise reduction applied, manyk sharpened
    Last edited by Simon Bennett; 11-12-2008 at 03:42 PM.

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    Hi Simon, You wrote: "#2: For folks using the various plug-ins like Noise Ninja, do you usually/always run NR on the whole image or just on the BKGR?

    I apply Neat Image noise reduction with default settings over a duplicate of the whole background layer. I rarely find there is loss of detail in the subject."

    Please confirm that you are doing NR on the whole image (on the Background copy). Thanks. And thanks for the samples!
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    Artie asked 'Please confirm that you are doing NR on the whole image (on the Background copy). Thanks.'

    Yes, I do apply noise reduction to a copy the whole background image. I do not mask the subject (generally). So in this case noise reduction was applied to the honeyeater as well as the background.
    Last edited by Simon Bennett; 11-12-2008 at 04:03 PM.

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    Lifetime Member Doug Brown's Avatar
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    I run NR on pretty much all of my images (I rarely shoot ISO 400 or lower). I restrict my NR to the BG. I use the Noise Ninja plug-in for CS4. In my work flow, I duplicate the BG layer. Then I select the bird and copy it to its own layer above the other two. Then I run Noise Ninja on the BG copy. Rarely I'll apply a little Gaussian Blur to the BG.
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    #1: What plug-ins are folks using if they do not do their NR in Photoshop?
    Noise Ninja

    #2: For folks using the various plug-ins like Noise Ninja, do you usually/always run NR on the whole image or just on the BKGR?
    Depends - Most of time just the BG, but sometimes the entire image.

    #3: For folks using NR during capture or conversion I would love to hear the details.
    Not Applicable

    #4: Yikes, almost forgot this one: What camera body and what ISOs??
    1DMK2 and 40D usually ISOs 400 or over. Sometimes less than 400 if significant croping will be
    done.

  16. #16
    Dominic Cantin
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    #1: What plug-ins are folks using if they do not do their NR in Photoshop?

    I use Noise Ninja ( stand alone )

    #2: For folks using the various plug-ins like Noise Ninja, do you usually/always run NR on the whole image or just on the BKGR?

    Only on the BG... I pass all the image under the NR but I use the noise brush to remove ( at ~80% ) the effect of NR only on the bird and perch.

    #3: For folks using NR during capture or conversion I would love to hear the details.

    The NR in camera are enable for high iso and long exposure but I find that there's noise at 400 iso and higher. If I make a crop , I'll pass Noise Ninja even at 200 iso.

    #4: Yikes, almost forgot this one: What camera body and what ISOs??

    Canon 40D and 400 iso and above.

    Thanks for the tutorial Artie :cool:

    Dom :)

  17. #17
    Robert O'Toole
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    The images are as follows:
    a-600% section of the converted RAW.
    b-same section with Axel's base Photoshop NR settings applied.
    c-same section with NR as above plus a one pixel Gaussian Blur.
    d-Same as b- with two pixel Gaussian Blur applied.

    Notes: Each of the JPEGs have been sharpened. I selected all but the (top edge of the) bill and ran Refine Edge on the selection.

    ps: Notice how beautifully the Refine Edge protects the detail along the edge of the bill. It is 1000 times more effective than simple feathering...
    Artie,

    Good thread, I have finished a tutorial on NR for my new CD, coming soon!

    One thing that will work on this image, is to run NR on just blues and a layer mask or quick mask to protect details. This will give you the ultimate control.

    It is usually recommended to run NR based on the viewing size to get away with using less.

    Robert

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    Super Moderator Daniel Cadieux's Avatar
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    I just have one question for the ones who use noise reduction as a result of cropping: Is this because of significant crops (e.g. less than 70-75% of full frame left)? I find that images that are simply cropped for composition do not get any more noticeable noise issues. I tend not to keep images that need major croppipng (except to document rarities or unusul behaviour) therefore never bothered with NR as a result of of cropping...

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    Jonathan Michael Ashton
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    Hi Artie, that is one stunning image. I would venture to say however that I get the impression that the bird looks a little as if it has been placed in front of a blue back ground. Is this because there is more noise reduction on the background tha the subject? Another small point, I have a 20D which I find is a little noisy over ISO 400, (mind you I am no expert at noise reduction) I pland to buy a 50D but will it prove to be more or less noisy in use?

    Jon

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    Publisher Arthur Morris's Avatar
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    Hi John,

    re:

    That is one stunning image.

    Thank you sir.

    I would venture to say however that I get the impression that the bird looks a little as if it has been placed in front of a blue back ground. Is this because there is more noise reduction on the background tha the subject?

    You tell me; take a look at the image in Pane #5 above.

    Another small point, I have a 20D which I find is a little noisy over ISO 400, (mind you I am no expert at noise reduction)

    Neither am I.

    I planned to buy a 50D but will it prove to be more or less noisy in use?

    Than a 20D? I will need to leave that for others to answer as I rarely used the 20D at high ISOs.

    Another point here is that I have not been using either in-camera or DPP NR, only after the fact NR. As soon as Breezebrowser supports the 50D I will try that.
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  21. #21
    gsdpic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    I planned to buy a 50D but will it prove to be more or less noisy in use?

    Than a 20D? I will need to leave that for others to answer as I rarely used the 20D at high ISOs.
    I recently upgraded from a 20D to a 50D. I do not yet have a lot of real-world experience with the 50D. But I find that if I "pixel peep" test images and look at 100% magnification, the 50D has as much or even more noise than the 20D at similar ISOs across the range. But if you show the two images at the same physical size they appear about the same, just because there are so many more pixels in the 50D image. The ISO 6400 and 12800 settings on the 50D are mostly marketing hype, IMO, as the few images I have taken at those ISOs were quite noisy.

    Two other hints that I have read....
    - the 50D has an "sraw1" size that is about the same number of pixels as 20D image, but seems to have less noise
    - some say using Canon's DPP to do the raw conversion produces less noisy images than ACR. I have not tested this claim.

  22. #22
    Publisher Arthur Morris's Avatar
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    Robert wrote: "One thing that will work on this image, is to run NR on just blues and a layer mask or quick mask to protect details. This will give you the ultimate control.

    It is usually recommended to run NR based on the viewing size to get away with using less.

    #1: How do you run NR on just the blues?

    #2: Would you do that with this image because of the dark blue BKGR or do it with all images?

    #3: I ran NR on the optimized TIFF, cropped to a 600% chunk, and then changed that to a JPEG. Is that not OK? (If I am running NR on a JPEG that I have downloaded then I do of course use much less NR for the JPEG than I would have if I had the full sized TIFF.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Cadieux View Post
    I just have one question for the ones who use noise reduction as a result of cropping: Is this because of significant crops (e.g. less than 70-75% of full frame left)? I find that images that are simply cropped for composition do not get any more noticeable noise issues. I tend not to keep images that need major croppipng (except to document rarities or unusul behaviour) therefore never bothered with NR as a result of of cropping...
    Hi Daniel, I am sure that cropping does not increase noise. When you do make a large crop however, you are degrading the image quality. I would think that this would make the noise more apparent thus neccesitating the need to run NR...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brown View Post
    I run NR on pretty much all of my images (I rarely shoot ISO 400 or lower). I restrict my NR to the BG. I use the Noise Ninja plug-in for CS4. In my work flow, I duplicate the BG layer. Then I select the bird and copy it to its own layer above the other two. Then I run Noise Ninja on the BG copy. Rarely I'll apply a little Gaussian Blur to the BG.
    I do pretty much as Doug does, except I use Nik Define 2.0 plug in for CS3. I also usually adjust the color to the contrast noise in the program. This is with a D300.

  25. #25
    John T. Watson
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    I believe that he is talking about going to channels, selecting the blue channel (usually the noisiest channel, and running noise reduction. The color of the background your working with doesn't matter, since all RGB photos have a blue channel.

    John

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    BPN Viewer Charles Glatzer's Avatar
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    The best thing IMO is to use an Edge mask for sharpening and a Surface mask (inverse of edge mask) for noise reduction. Combine these when necessary with a layer mask, and channel selection, fliters, and blending mode and you will have total control.

    For the record, when using an Edge mask I rarely need to apply noise reduction.

    Best,

    Chas

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