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Thread: Sister Golden Hair Surprise..

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    Default Sister Golden Hair Surprise..

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    EOS R6 RF 100-500 @500 f8 1/500 ISO 800 HH, Manual EXP, slight crop for composition

    In the final step of processing for this image (sharpening for presentation), began to realize it was a trend in general with images off this sensor that they were already sharper than the R and needed much less at final step. I remembered when I first got the R I set the sharpness strength to 3 per Artie and Ari's DPP guide as that was the recommendation for the 5DMKIV sensor. Then read an in depth review of R where the author discovered the R actually had sharper images off the sensor than 5DMKIV and the default SH strength should be set to 2 in DPP. First I reverified that DPP does not apply in camera Picture Style to raw files. Check. So went back to the digital picture website and sure enough the same author did a similar in depth review of the R5 and R6. Sure enough, the R6 was also sharper off this new sensor and SH strength in DPP should be set to default 1. Didn't here, but will change default going forth.

    This image was created as the large golden ball hung on the horizon on a very clear, dry, cold evening. So, the usual intense last light on everything. In fact cooled this a little in camera raw but I love natural cast.

    Thanks as always for all previous very valued comments, help and learnings. Keep them coming, please.
    Last edited by David Roach; 12-04-2020 at 06:58 PM.

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    Avian Moderator Randy Stout's Avatar
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    David:

    Interesting bit about the sharpening. Looks good here. I like the colour harmony between bird, bg and perch. The curled leaf remnants are interesting, but not distracting to me, with nice angle in the frame. I would consider softening the light circle just in front of the bird and possibly the area just behind the head.

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    BPN Member Brian Sump's Avatar
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    David, I like the comp here. That perch is crazy, even though just wilting it's like a rusted wrought iron stairway baluster or something. Neat.

    Can you please do me a favor? Please check what picture style you used here in DPP. Then, in the next tab to the right, "sub-window" what are Reduce Luminance Noise and Reduce Chromatic Noise set at? Next, can you move the chromatic noise slider up to 9 or 10 and repost?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Sump View Post
    David, I like the comp here. That perch is crazy, even though just wilting it's like a rusted wrought iron stairway baluster or something. Neat.

    Can you please do me a favor? Please check what picture style you used here in DPP. Then, in the next tab to the right, "sub-window" what are Reduce Luminance Noise and Reduce Chromatic Noise set at? Next, can you move the chromatic noise slider up to 9 or 10 and repost?
    Hi Brian,
    Those sliders were at lum-2, chrom-3. My defaults and as this was ISO 800 didn't touch them. Here is chrom-9. Hope it helps. The picture style is not applied in raw processing in DPP. Just for display in camera. Hope this helps
    Peace,
    David

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    BPN Member Andreas Liedmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Roach View Post
    The picture style is not applied in raw processing in DPP. Just for display in camera. Hope this helps
    Peace,
    David
    Hi David .... this is not correct !!!! Within DPP you are using a picture style , wether you like or not .... the picture style is containing a tone curve and color curve that Canon think is good !!! Along with it is the sharping set to a certain value .
    Canon offers a software to create your own picture style , you can alter the tone curve , global colors and individual colors .... where you can even change the hue , saturation and lightness of individual colors to your preferences . And you can save this profile or picture style to use it in DPP


    Regarding the image ... another nice clean shot !!!
    I do like the pose , the light and the perch is fine for me.

    RP does look very flat , pushing the `color noise `values too far inside DPP is not the way to go IMHO !!!

    TFS Andreas

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas Liedmann View Post
    Hi David .... this is not correct !!!! Within DPP you are using a picture style , wether you like or not .... the picture style is containing a tone curve and color curve that Canon think is good !!! Along with it is the sharping set to a certain value .
    Canon offers a software to create your own picture style , you can alter the tone curve , global colors and individual colors .... where you can even change the hue , saturation and lightness of individual colors to your preferences . And you can save this profile or picture style to use it in DPP


    Regarding the image ... another nice clean shot !!!
    I do like the pose , the light and the perch is fine for me.

    RP does look very flat , pushing the `color noise `values too far inside DPP is not the way to go IMHO !!!

    TFS Andreas
    Hi Andreas,
    So, where is this DPP Picture Style and settings in DPP? The repost was not an attempt to improve image, it was a request from Brian as you can see below.
    Thanks again for your always valued inputs.
    Peace,
    David

    Update:
    Researched what you are talking about. I do not use that feature and do not batch process. Only have some values you can set in DPP such as Sharpness, Noise sliders set to defaults... And in case others are confused (probably not since most are pros), when processing raw files DPP does not use in camera Picture Style, There is a feature to setup and import Picture Styles for raw images but I don't use it.
    Last edited by David Roach; 12-03-2020 at 07:55 AM.

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    BPN Member Brian Sump's Avatar
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    David, thank you for doing that.

    I agree, it does look flat, but what I was trying to see is how we notice Chroma (color) noise. It's something that I've become much more aware of in DPP and it seems it can really affect images negatively.

    Can you see the difference? There are small red and gray splotches in the og post. Those splotches really hurt my R5 files, IMO and experimenting with reducing that noise I believe can help. You may need to add a little contrast (I typically will adjust the curves layer in PS to do it) but it might be something really help the feel and the 'texture' per Dorian and Dan's recent comments on the R5/mirrorless images.

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    BPN Member Brian Sump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Roach View Post
    Hi Andreas,
    So, where is this DPP Picture Style and settings in DPP? The repost was not an attempt to improve image, it was a request from Brian as you can see below.
    Thanks again for your always valued inputs.
    Peace,
    David

    Update:
    Researched what you are talking about. I do not use that feature and do not batch process. Only have some values you can set in DPP such as Sharpness, Noise sliders set to defaults... And in case others are confused (probably not since most are pros), when processing raw files DPP does not use in camera Picture Style, There is a feature to setup and import Picture Styles for raw images but I don't use it.
    David, are you in DPP 4?

    What does it show in this spot on this file? Or do you not have that option?

    Name:  DPP camera settings.jpg
Views: 72
Size:  214.0 KB

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    I really like the complimentary tone in the perch and love the curled leaves. The birds pose is nice as well. I personally don't find the image too flat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Sump View Post
    David, thank you for doing that.

    I agree, it does look flat, but what I was trying to see is how we notice Chroma (color) noise. It's something that I've become much more aware of in DPP and it seems it can really affect images negatively.

    Can you see the difference? There are small red and gray splotches in the og post. Those splotches really hurt my R5 files, IMO and experimenting with reducing that noise I believe can help. You may need to add a little contrast (I typically will adjust the curves layer in PS to do it) but it might be something really help the feel and the 'texture' per Dorian and Dan's recent comments on the R5/mirrorless images.
    Hi Brian and Andreas,
    Sorry for being, in the words of this old rocker's fave old school musician, "Thick as a Brick". Didn't fully understand what was going on. The Picture Style was set to standard as it is set in my camera (has camera icon beside it). I intended DPP to be using neutral (or faithful maybe) for full control and not my in camera choice which was just for in camera display(Or so I thought). So, I'm changing camera to neutral unless anyone has better suggestion. As far as your investigation, I am more than happy to send any of my raw files to you to help you figure out best settings and their effects for R5 or R6. Let me know in a PM or here and I will send you the raw if it will help. As I am partially color blind looking for nuanced color noise is not my strong suit. I am using DPP version 4.13.10.0.
    Peace,
    David

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    Nice direct stare from this guy. Details look good and the perch is cool. I think you could use a bit more contrast (i.e a bit more black) and you might want to think about desaturating the blues on the beak and upper back. The specular highlight behind is a
    bit distracting, and you could try to remove it as others have suggested. But all in all a very nice image.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Sump View Post
    David, are you in DPP 4?

    What does it show in this spot on this file? Or do you not have that option?

    Name:  DPP camera settings.jpg
Views: 72
Size:  214.0 KB
    He must have the same option as you show , Brian , as even DPP 3 had the almost same interface .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas Liedmann View Post
    He must have the same option as you show , Brian , as even DPP 3 had the almost same interface .
    Answered below:
    Hi Brian and Andreas,
    Sorry for being, in the words of this old rocker's fave old school musician, "Thick as a Brick". Didn't fully understand what was going on. The Picture Style was set to standard as it is set in my camera (has camera icon beside it). I intended DPP to be using neutral (or faithful maybe) for full control and not my in camera choice which was just for in camera display(Or so I thought). So, I'm changing camera to neutral unless anyone has better suggestion. As far as your investigation, I am more than happy to send any of my raw files to you to help you figure out best settings and their effects for R5 or R6. Let me know in a PM or here and I will send you the raw if it will help. As I am partially color blind looking for nuanced color noise is not my strong suit. I am using DPP version 4.13.10.0.
    Peace,
    David

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    Hi David .... matter of taste which `picture style`you are using in the camera , as long as you shoot in RAW . I use `Neutral`and have the contrast reduced to -4 , saturation -2 . WB is set to auto .
    So when opening in DPP 4 , the image will come up with these settings ..... my personal preference and starting point for editing . I am not using the `auto lightning optimizer `like Brian is using ( see his screen shot with the ticked box ) .... I try to avoid any tonal auto adjustments , because of the loss of control what is the software doing to my image .

    Your request of sending raw files is ok , for an individual specific image and question .... but not for a general guideline how to set the color noise value `correctly`!!! As these values will differ very much , depending on many various factors ... like ISO , correct exposure etc .
    I personally normally do not touch this slider , leave it at manufacturers default .

    Cheers Andreas

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas Liedmann View Post
    Hi David .... matter of taste which `picture style`you are using in the camera , as long as you shoot in RAW . I use `Neutral`and have the contrast reduced to -4 , saturation -2 . WB is set to auto .
    So when opening in DPP 4 , the image will come up with these settings ..... my personal preference and starting point for editing . I am not using the `auto lightning optimizer `like Brian is using ( see his screen shot with the ticked box ) .... I try to avoid any tonal auto adjustments , because of the loss of control what is the software doing to my image .

    Your request of sending raw files is ok , for an individual specific image and question .... but not for a general guideline how to set the color noise value `correctly`!!! As these values will differ very much , depending on many various factors ... like ISO , correct exposure etc .
    I personally normally do not touch this slider , leave it at manufacturers default .

    Cheers Andreas
    Thanks much Andreas, your commennts always valued and learned from...

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    Somebody correct me if I am wrong: my recollection is that Picture Style only effect the JEG. Arash???

    I like the image but not all of the o-o-f circles in the BKGR.

    What camera was used?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Somebody correct me if I am wrong: my recollection is that Picture Style only effect the JEG. Arash???

    I like the image but not all of the o-o-f circles in the BKGR.

    What camera was used?

    with love, a
    Hi Artie,
    This was taken with the new and amazing R6, My mini 1DX MK III with IBIS and improved DPAF II... I thought the same which is why we had the long discussion. I found the same info online and in the manual. However, after Andreas kept insisting I went into file in DPP and it had Standard which I setup in camera for display only(even has camera icon on the one in camera). But then I chose neutral from that very same drop down and it clearly was using the cameras settings for raw. I'm still confused so I set Camera to neutral as I don't chimp anymore after 2 years using mirrorless.
    Peace,
    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Somebody correct me if I am wrong: my recollection is that Picture Style only effect the JEG.
    Hi Artie ... like any other raw converter DPP needs to apply , somehow , a tone curve to the raw file . Like in the old film days , different films .... different effects on tone and color on output , regardless if it was slide or print film .

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Roach View Post
    But then I chose neutral from that very same drop down and it clearly was using the cameras settings for raw. I'm still confused so I set Camera to neutral as I don't chimp anymore after 2 years using mirrorless.
    David , what is confusing ???
    As long as you shoot raw , does not matter what you are doing " in camera" ..... you can " override " that in DPP .
    Nothing different in mirrorless compared to dslr !!!!

    Both work just with data ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas Liedmann View Post
    David , what is confusing ???
    As long as you shoot raw , does not matter what you are doing " in camera" ..... you can " override " that in DPP .
    Nothing different in mirrorless compared to dslr !!!!

    Both work just with data ....
    What is confusing is some documentation says it does not apply in camera PS to raw processing. I have always setup to have neutral (I want to control most processing decision) which I thought I was getting. No big deal as I don't need standard in camera either. So to be sure I get neutral I also set in camera. I don't want to be picking PS on every image as I always like neutral. Again, not a big deal...

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    David .... once again , regardless what you are doing " in camera" , in terms of picture style with all the sub options ( neutral, standard , landscape , etc ) , white balance , contrast ,sharpness , noise reduction , color , color tone and so on ..... has no influence on the work inside DPP !!!!!

    As all the various things can be changed within DPP without any loss of quality !!!!!

    DPP opens the file with the `in camera ´ settings ..... but you can change them as said above .If you change them and finally close DPP , you become asked if you want to save the image with your changes made to the file !!! If you say ....YES .... the file will be saved with your changes . If you say ..... NO .... the file will be saved with the `in camera `settings .

    This is just working when you shoot in RAW !!!! If some folks shoot in jpeg all the things said above are useless . Then the in camera settings are written into the jpeg file and cannot be changed afterwards .

    Hope this helps .....

    BTW .... all is written in the very good DPP documentation , which can be downloaded from Canon .

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Roach View Post
    What is confusing is some documentation says it does not apply in camera PS to raw processing.
    Wonder what documentations that are .... cannot be official ones .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas Liedmann View Post
    Wonder what documentations that are .... cannot be official ones .
    Hi Andreas,
    This is one of many sources which are ambiguous and unclear and helped to confuse me. In fact, I thought the option in the Picture Style field in DPP showed camera icon to let you know it is in camera only and not applied during processing. My misunderstanding I'm sure. Not a problem now as I now know my setup uses neutral (for sure) as that is what my preference is. Thanks as always for your valued help.
    Peace,
    David

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    Glad you sorted this out !!!

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