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Thread: Big Day for Mirrorless... Paradigm shifts...

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    Default Big Day for Mirrorless... Paradigm shifts...

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    EOS R EF 100-400 I 2xtc II @800 f16 1/1300 ISO 10000 HH, Cropped for composition, Not a Canon commercial, just further info on mirrorless revolution. In fact further product announcements from Sony and Nikon this month.

    One thing no one is talking about enough on the mirrorless side.
    For Canon (and probably all other mirrorless brands) the low light ability of the new bodies leave DSLRs in the dust.
    Facts about Canon (as of today);
    1 - The EOS R has fast AF down to F11 glass(as demonstrated here with very old glass). The image in the post was taken right at the moment of sunrise when I first got the EOS R. It can AF at points covering 80% of the frame. I imaged all morning with this glass back when I got the rig. This is the first image of day in low light (right at sunrise).
    2 - The new Canon bodies (R5, R6 announced today) can AF with down to f22 glass with complete, full frame AF point coverage. Probably not as snappy as f11 all the way down to f22 (awaiting actual reviews with slower glass). People were laughing at the new f11 DO glass(600mm and 800mm). Very light and very cheap. Yes not fast glass, but I bet quite usable IQ will be had. BTW all EF glass operates seemlessly with these bodies and Canon extenders. No loss of functionality or IQ on the current big gun EF glass.
    3 - The R6 with 20mp sensor similar to 1dx mkiii can AF down to EV -6.5
    4 - New RF 100-500 has less elements and is 100 gr lighter than EF 100-400 II

    Fun times ahead in the mirrorless revolution...

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    Well for ISO 10,000 this looks real good David. I think there is a lack of detail on the bird, although it looks nice. Nice setting with the dark BG The leafy FG is nice. I wished the bird had been looking slightly downwards towards the viewer .....I suppose one day most of us will go mirrorless, but for the time being, I am happy with what I got.

    Will

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Dickson View Post
    Well for ISO 10,000 this looks real good David. I think there is a lack of detail on the bird, although it looks nice. Nice setting with the dark BG The leafy FG is nice. I wished the bird had been looking slightly downwards towards the viewer .....I suppose one day most of us will go mirrorless, but for the time being, I am happy with what I got.

    Will
    Thanks as always for your valued comments. Yes, it is soft due to old glass combo. The AF hit perfectly but this old glass (especially old TCs) does not resolve detail well. New glass (generations ahead) will be much more detailed. I only know this due to experience with RF 70-200(albeit newer and much faster). SH is their with RF glass. When I get RF 100-500 we'll see how that performs...

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    nice find and settings, I agree with Bill re. a better HA. The image is very soft and lacking critical detail from the heavy noise reduction , not a keeper for me:)

    re. One thing no one is talking about enough on the mirrorless side.
    For Canon (and probably all other mirrorless brands) the low light ability of the new bodies leave DSLRs in the dust.

    I think you are talking about low light AF ability. I think you may not really have experience with DSLR's or other systems. The current Canon MLIC is pretty much a joke IMO. the new R5 might change that but there are no lenses for it

    see my impressions of the Sony here : http://arihazeghiphotography.com/blo...l-impressions/ aside from Sony pretty much all other MILC cameras are pretty much a no go IMO for serious bird photographers especially if you want high quality BIF shots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    nice find and settings, I agree with Bill re. a better HA. The image is very soft and lacking critical detail from the heavy noise reduction , an instant delete for your truly :)

    re. One thing no one is talking about enough on the mirrorless side.
    For Canon (and probably all other mirrorless brands) the low light ability of the new bodies leave DSLRs in the dust.

    I think you are talking about low light AF ability. I think you may not really have experience with DSLR's or other systems. The current Canon MLIC is a sad joke IMO. the new R5 might change that but there are no lenses for it

    see my impressions of the Sony here : http://arihazeghiphotography.com/blo...l-impressions/ aside from Sony pretty much all other MILC cameras are pretty much a no go IMO
    You are talking about limitations of R (a stop gap) with a processor too slow to support Sony like AF, not the (announced today) R5 and R6. BTW, the 1Dx MK III live view AF demonstrated the improvements to DPAF only possible with faster Digic X processor. The improvements over that system (we'll see) now lead to DPAF vers. II in these new bodies which use same Digic X processor(that is ahead of live view on 1DX MK III). About lenses, all EF lenses work on RF with Canon EF to RF converter. I believe the EF line is pretty extensive. So, saying no lenses available is completely inaccurate, at best. Plus they also announced the RF 100-500, RF 600 and RF 800 today. Pretty sure that's as much or more glass than any other system available. The converter is fully compatible with older EF protocol and simply a spacer to get optics to EF flange distance. You should research the release today before making erroneous statements. Yes, they will have to be available and thoroughly tested (we shall see). Didn't you say the A9 was a toy a while back? A9II basically same camera. Didn't intend a Sony vs Canon war, just wanted to inform on what's coming. I don't know of any DSLR that can AF with f11 glass let alone f22. Don't know a DSLR that can AF to EV-6.5. I'm pretty sure Canon is joining the FF mirrorless party with todays release. Can Nikon be far behind? Both (Sony and Nikon) have further announcements this month.
    Peace,
    David
    Last edited by David Roach; 07-09-2020 at 03:09 PM.

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    Hi David, overall I find the image a bit cold, but I understand the reasons why, so no need to rehash. As presented, it does lack critical detail and is noisy, but that could be just down to PP. 6400 is probably it's ceiling, best below 3200 IMHO, however... The 100-400 MK is a super sharp lens and having pooh poohed it for a number of years (how wrong), it has found its way into my kitbag and is one of the key lenses.

    Not ideal on the MacBook Pro David, but if the image goes a bit warmer, noise is controlled better with perhaps some more localised USM, some of the brighter elements in the BKG toned down/darkened and areas some areas of the subject are dodged & burned (darker/lightened) I think you get to see more of 'the picture'. It's hard to make a huge improvement from the posting, but I do feel you can improve the OP.

    TFS
    Steve
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Roach View Post
    You are talking about limitations of R (a stop gap) with a processor too slow to support Sony like AF, not the (announced today) R5 and R6. BTW, the 1Dx MK III live view AF demonstrated the improvements to DPAF only possible with faster Digic X processor. The improvements over that system (we'll see) now lead to DPAF vers. II in these new bodies which use same Digic X processor(that is ahead of live view on 1DX MK III). About lenses, all EF lenses work on RF with Canon EF to RF converter. I believe the EF line is pretty extensive. So, saying no lenses available is completely inaccurate, at best. Plus they also announced the RF 100-500, RF 600 and RF 800 today. Pretty sure that's as much or more glass than any other system available. The converter is fully compatible with older EF protocol and simply a spacer to get optics to EF flange distance. You should research the release today before making erroneous statements. Yes, they will have to be available and thoroughly tested (we shall see). Didn't you say the A9 was a toy a while back? A9II basically same camera. Didn't intend a Sony vs Canon war, just wanted to inform on what's coming. I don't know of any DSLR that can AF with f11 glass let alone f22. Don't know a DSLR that can AF to EV-6.5. I'm pretty sure Canon is joining the FF mirrorless party with todays release. Can Nikon be far behind? Both (Sony and Nikon) have further announcements this month.
    Peace,
    David
    You sound like Canon marketing, do you work for them ? :)

    The Canon EF lenses are great but they are not designed for MILC system. to enable real time subject tracking you need different kind of motors like the ones in Sony and some of Canon's own RF lenses. When using the EF to RF adapter the AF performance will not be optimal, otherwise Canon could just give us the adapter and they would be done.

    the new RF f/11 lenses release so far are just a load of junk IMO with such pin-hole slow apertures, cheap plastic construction and likely dog slow AF, well a $800 MSRP for a 800mm lens reminds me of those old mirror-telephoto f/11 lenses. Looks like someone at Canon said let's make the cheapest lens we can and see what happens....

    It seems you don't realize f/22 AF is pretty darn useless for bird photography. At that aperture image is soft as a mirage as a result of diffraction and everything is going to be in focus, don't need AF!.... not to mention the insane ISO needed will result in an instant delete image like the one you posted above... a total waste of time if you ask me.

    where did I say "Sony A9 is a toy" please point me to it ?

    there is no question MILC is the future and is fundamentally superior but my point is besides Sony other's aren't there yet... maybe The R5 is better but then w/o lenses is DOA for someone like me.

    thanks
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 07-09-2020 at 04:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Kaluski View Post
    Hi David, overall I find the image a bit cold, but I understand the reasons why, so no need to rehash. As presented, it does lack critical detail and is noisy, but that could be just down to PP. 6400 is probably it's ceiling, best below 3200 IMHO, however... The 100-400 MK is a super sharp lens and having pooh poohed it for a number of years (how wrong), it has found its way into my kitbag and is one of the key lenses.

    Not ideal on the MacBook Pro David, but if the image goes a bit warmer, noise is controlled better with perhaps some more localised USM, some of the brighter elements in the BKG toned down/darkened and areas some areas of the subject are dodged & burned (darker/lightened) I think you get to see more of 'the picture'. It's hard to make a huge improvement from the posting, but I do feel you can improve the OP.

    TFS
    Steve
    Thanks Steve for the inputs. Do you have the old push pull or the newer MK II version of the 100-400? From everything I've read, the 100-400 mk II with version 3 TC was a huge improvement over this combo. This is the old push pull version one with version II TC known to be a stinker. Add 10000 ISO and it doesn't help. I already posted this image a long time ago on this sight and know the limitations. My point was even in low light and with this limited glass the AF hit the spot with speed using this f11 glass in low light. Now owning the RF 70-200 glass, I can see a huge difference in detail resolution. You can see it in my recent posts with that glass. The point I was trying to make is the mirrorless cameras just released should pan out to be low light and slower glass monsters. The R5 and R6 can AF down to f22 glass. I am ordering the new (now third generation as it is just longer version of the 100-400) RF 100-500 so we will see on the glass. The R5 looks like a video monster but I'm guessing will have some overheating problems due to the huge data transfers for 8K video. The R6 will probably be the better choice if it pans out under professional review. It uses sensor based on 1DX MK III (20mp)(better in lower light ISO performance)and the same Digic X processor. So, 12fps with shutter and DPAF improvements for wildlife/sports stills. This includes animal/ bird eye detection and up to 8 stops of IBIS. Just trying to make the point, new slower RF glass has potential to change the way we think about IQ of slow glass. Right now everybody is scratching their heads at the RF 600 and 800 (both DO f11 glass, light and cheap). I could be wrong, but we will see.
    Please keep those valued comments coming.

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    David, l’ll keep out if the camera tech side, it’s not for me.
    Post Production: It’s ALL about what you do with the tools and not, which brand of tool you use.

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    we heave a separate thread for these lenses BTW, should be discussed here http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...anon-RF-lenses
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    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    You sound like Canon marketing, do you work for them ? :)

    The Canon EF lenses are great but they are not designed for MILC system. to enable real time subject tracking you need different kind of motors like the ones in Sony and some of Canon's own RF lenses. When using the EF to RF adapter the AF performance will not be optimal, otherwise Canon could just give us the adapter and they would be done.

    the new RF f/11 lenses release so far are just a load of junk IMO with such pin-hole slow apertures, cheap plastic construction and likely dog slow AF, well a $800 MSRP for a 800mm lens reminds me of those old mirror-telephoto f/11 lenses. Looks like someone at Canon said let's make the cheapest lens we can and see what happens....

    It seems you don't realize f/22 AF is pretty darn useless for bird photography. At that aperture image is soft as a mirage as a result of diffraction and everything is going to be in focus, don't need AF!.... not to mention the insane ISO needed will result in an instant delete image like the one you posted above... a total waste of time.

    where did I say "Sony A9 is a toy" please point me to it ?

    there is no question MILC is the future and is fundamentally superior but my point is besides Sony other's aren't there yet...

    thanks
    Again, totally inaccurate on your converter point. It works perfectly with EF glass. Not my words, many rigorous reviewers concur. The reason for all new RF glass (yes better than EF variant) is optical design enhancements due to shorter flange distance and faster throughput on communications between body and lens on RF mount. For example, the RF 70-200 has less elements than the previous EF version III (an excellent lens by all accounts). Also has better communication throughput and speed due to RF mount improvements. Thus considerably lighter, less distortion and more clarity in light transmission. DPreviews lens of the year last year. Many rigorous review sights agree. Did you review the new bodies as that is what I am referring to. You should look up the RF lens reviews in general... In addition, Jared Polin (current Sony professional user)specifically compared the 1DX Mk III mirrorless side AF to the A9 II AF at basketball game. Neck and neck was the conclusion with A9 II very slightly better. The DPAF vers II in these new mirrorless bodies most likely improved on that. We'll wait and see when they are reviewed by rigorous testers. You should check out Jared Polins comparison a while back on youtube. The faster processor speed is what Canon needed to improve over the Rs AF performance. These players will be pushing each other for years to come. All to our advantage, no matter your brand loyalty. When you say others aren't there yet, as of today you will have to wait for reviews on these and the upcoming bodies from both Sony and Nikon this month.
    Peace,
    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Roach View Post
    Again, totally inaccurate on your converter point. It works perfectly with EF glass. Not my words, many rigorous reviewers concur. The reason for all new RF glass (yes better than EF variant) is optical design enhancements due to shorter flange distance and faster throughput on communications between body and lens on RF mount. For example, the RF 70-200 has less elements than the previous EF version III (an excellent lens by all accounts). Also has better communication throughput and speed due to RF mount improvements. Thus considerably lighter, less distortion and more clarity in light transmission. DPreviews lens of the year last year. Many rigorous review sights agree. Did you review the new bodies as that is what I am referring to. You should look up the RF lens reviews in general... In addition, Jared Polin (current Sony professional user)specifically compared the 1DX Mk III mirrorless side AF to the A9 II AF at basketball game. Neck and neck was the conclusion with A9 II very slightly better. The DPAF vers II in these new mirrorless bodies most likely improved on that. We'll wait and see when they are reviewed by rigorous testers. You should check out Jared Polins comparison a while back on youtube. The faster processor speed is what Canon needed to improve over the Rs AF performance. These players will be pushing each other for years to come. All to our advantage, no matter your brand loyalty. When you say others aren't there yet, as of today you will have to wait for reviews on these and the upcoming bodies from both Sony and Nikon this month.
    Peace,
    David

    you seem to confuse optics with focus motor. I can't make sense of what you are trying to say :)

    I don't look up reviews or care what a random guy said on the internet...don't fall for the click baits.... There are not that many people who have the talent and the skill to make hand hold avian photos with the super telephone lenses that we are talking about , I know most of them in person, they are or have been members on this site ;)

    you are free to shoot whit those f/11 or f/22 stuff if you wish too, as long as you are happy with the images, nobody's business :) I just wanted to debunk the statement that Mirror-less stuff leaves the DSLR in dust, it doesn't as of today, in future it will. The Sony A9 is better but the Nikon is no slouch and not left in any dust, if you can't get excellent photos with it you need to questions your own talent and skills first IMO :) Most mirror less cameras like that EOSR or Nikon Z are a big waste of time compared to a DSLR IMO and I know a thing or two about bird photography, I think :)

    best
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    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    you seem to confuse optics with focus motor. I can't make sense of what you are trying to say :)

    I don't look up reviews or care what a random guy said on the internet...don't fall for the click baits.... There are not that many people who have the talent and the skill to make hand hold avian photos with the super telephone lenses that we are talking about , I know most of them in person, they are or have been members on this site ;)

    you are free to shoot whit those f/11 or f/22 stuff if you wish too, as long as you are happy with the images, nobody's business :) I just wanted to debunk the false statement that Mirror-less stuff leaves the DSLR in dust, it doesn't as of today, in future it will. The Sony A9 is better but the Nikon is no slouch and not left in any dust, if you can't get excellent photos with it you need to questions your own talent and skills first IMO :) Most mirror less cameras like that EOSR or Nikon Z are a big waste of time compared to a DSLR IMO and I know a thing or two about bird photography, I think :)

    best
    Hi Arash,
    I said " the low light ability of the new bodies leave DSLRs in the dust." Not the same as "Mirror-less stuff leaves the DSLR in dust". Misquoted there and I wanted to be clear. Could you dream of a DSLR AF with f11 to f22 glass. And that's at every choosable AF point within 100% of the full frame. I'm sure it will be slower in the extreme smaller aperture side. As the tech further develops, it may change the way we think going forward about slower glass. It may be more usable than we currently think. Thus, paradigm shift possible. That is still my main point. I have been referring to AF on the R5 and R6. Have you seen the specs? The review I suggested is a side by side AF test (A9II vs 1dx mk III mirrorless AF) with viewable results. Not really click bait. You do realize people using the 1dx mk III today are imaging with their EF glass quite successfully in the mirrorless live view mode. They would get same results or better with these new mirrorless bodies if the DPAF has improved further. Surely, it has. Or do you think Canon is going backwards? Let's see what happens and thanks again for your very valued comments. Please keep them coming. The expert reviews will be interesting to say the least.

    ps
    I do think the shutterless mode of these two new bodies will still have rolling shutter, also based on test with 1dx mk III mirrorless mode (which is actually the currently released best mirrorless AF for Canon). But we will see.
    Faster glass will obviously always be better but it may be fun to walk around with a more compact and lighter alternative even if you also own the fast glass. I am curious to see how it performs. Also not bad marketing to make nature photography more accessible in general. Cell phones are eating at the camera industry in general. And yes, we are in violent agreement, mirroless lenses for all manufacturers will be better due to advantages of new mounts (flange distance, better communications and larger diameters in some cases).
    Peace,
    David

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    I am going to repeat that we don't need f/11 or f/22 for bird photography...has exactly zero value... and thanks but I don't need any of those internet "experts" to tell me anything about AF, I know a thing or two myself :)

    cheers and look forward to your R5 images once you get it in your hands.
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