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Thread: Theme: Avocet Incoming

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    Avian Moderator Brian Sump's Avatar
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    Default Theme: Avocet Incoming

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    In a favorite shooting spot about 40 minutes after first light, hence the robust orange coloration.

    These guys are fairly quick but of course great opportunity comes when the wings are set.

    Do the bright green blotches hurt on center and right in bkg?

    Nikon D500
    Sigma 500mm f4
    Handheld
    ISO 110
    f4
    1/1600
    50% crop
    Post in Lightroom

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    Avian Moderator Randy Stout's Avatar
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    Brian:

    The green works for me, as it breaks up the very strong brown/orange dominance. I might tone down the one under the throat however.

    Like the full up wing pose, drops, legs, and of course that bill.

    Head is turned a bit away.

    Cheers

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    Macro and Flora Moderator Jonathan Ashton's Avatar
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    Absolutely beautiful, but I am not too sure about the eye - is it sharp?

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    Lifetime Member Mike Poole's Avatar
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    Beautiful colour palette, this is a bird I'd love to photograph next time I'm your side of the pond. Great incoming pose, maybe a little large in frame. The green blobs don't bother me at all, but another round of sharpening to the head wouldn't hurt.

    Mike

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    BPN Member Jack Backs's Avatar
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    Very nice image. Like th color palette. Looks a little dark on my monitor, but that may be me. I would probably remove the water droplets because they look a little smeared.

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    Avian Moderator Brian Sump's Avatar
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    Great suggestions all!

    The eye was a bit oof, so adjusted that, smoothed some bkg and removed center green blob. (Left crop - thanks for the suggestion though Mike)

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    BPN Member Andreas Liedmann's Avatar
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    Hi Brian ... this looks stunning in terms of action , color and tones .Nice bird .
    For me image is lacking sharpness and a little bit of noise/grain showing up in the BG , surprised at ISO 110 ???!!

    TFS Andreas

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Backs View Post
    Very nice image. Like th color palette. Looks a little dark on my monitor, but that may be me. I would probably remove the water droplets because they look a little smeared.
    Jack, great suggestion. I thought they added perspective to where the bird was in relatively to the water, but you're right. Will remove in the final copy.

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    Avian Moderator Brian Sump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas Liedmann View Post
    Hi Brian ... this looks stunning in terms of action , color and tones .Nice bird .
    For me image is lacking sharpness and a little bit of noise/grain showing up in the BG , surprised at ISO 110 ???!!

    TFS Andreas
    Andreas, great comments. I was at 1/1600 at first light in fact, so maybe that's why? I'm still learning but yes, I do see some as well.

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    BPN Member dankearl's Avatar
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    Such great colors.... should have been a 1/3200 at least in that light.
    Underexposed? Must have been with noise at iso110.
    Always another day. This is so close....
    Dan Kearl

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    Avian Moderator Brian Sump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dankearl View Post
    Such great colors.... should have been a 1/3200 at least in that light.
    Underexposed? Must have been with noise at iso110.
    Always another day. This is so close....
    Dan, are you saying you think I should have doubled shutter speed at ISO 110?

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    BPN Member dankearl's Avatar
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    Brian. you could have been at iso400 at 1/3200 easily.
    I never get to shoot in light like that. You are lucky, next time.
    There is never a reason to go below iso400 in bird photography.
    Dan Kearl

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    Wildlife Moderator Steve Kaluski's Avatar
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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    Hi Brian, if you take the OP and bring it into LR and then process the image addressing the Contrast aspect, then get a neutral grey value of 50/50/50 ie on the leg you get something like this. Then you can colour manage the image in whatever direction you feel best reflects the capture. I would strongly suggest you purchase PSCC 2020 (as a package from adobe with a monthly payment) as there is a limit to what any Raw converter can deliver because it's more 'Global' and PS will offer more benefits to you. You can then toggle between the two: ie Convert the Raw in LR, export to PSCC2020, make any selective adjustments in PS retaining all layers, never flatten, re save back to LR where you can still make more adjustments if required to the 16bit tiff and then Export out. You then have everything under one roof so to speak.

    TFS
    Steve
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    Quote Originally Posted by dankearl View Post
    Brian. you could have been at iso400 at 1/3200 easily.
    I never get to shoot in light like that. You are lucky, next time.
    There is never a reason to go below iso400 in bird photography.
    Dan, you're making me think. I typically shoot in M with auto ISO. I had minimum set to 100 and max at 3200. Would you expect the D500 to adjust ISO up at 1/1600?

    I certainly have a lot of room for growth in the ISO settings v shutter speed.

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    Avian Moderator Brian Sump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Kaluski View Post
    Hi Brian, if you take the OP and bring it into LR and then process the image addressing the Contrast aspect, then get a neutral grey value of 50/50/50 ie on the leg you get something like this. Then you can colour manage the image in whatever direction you feel best reflects the capture. I would strongly suggest you purchase PSCC 2020 (as a package from adobe with a monthly payment) as there is a limit to what any Raw converter can deliver because it's more 'Global' and PS will offer more benefits to you. You can then toggle between the two: ie Convert the Raw in LR, export to PSCC2020, make any selective adjustments in PS retaining all layers, never flatten, re save back to LR where you can still make more adjustments if required to the 16bit tiff and then Export out. You then have everything under one roof so to speak.

    TFS
    Steve
    Steve, I do have both. Historically I never used LR - only edited raw in PS where I would do color, levels, contrast, etc and I liked it. But getting more into photography forums and tutorials I decided I better learn LR. So I started importing and adjusting there and got into the habit of only using PS for image edits like spot and background adjusts and watermark. I know I can right click from LR and "Edit in Photoshop" but need to learn the saving back in to LR from there. PS was always my final editing destination.

    These comments are extremely helpful to me.

    EDIT: a quick search reveals that I can "Save As" in PS and it will stack a version with my edits in LR. So awesome!

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    BPN Member dankearl's Avatar
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    Brian, I shoot auto iso when shooting birds with the D500,
    For birds in flight I shoot wide open, 1/2000 min.(only when dark), 1/2500 min. in decent light.
    I dial the iso + for exposure compensation, I hardly ever set iso to minus, I don't shoot in bright sunlight.
    For perched birds, still a good idea to stay at 1/1000 min.
    I set iso400min and iso6400 max.
    Last edited by dankearl; 04-28-2020 at 02:34 PM.
    Dan Kearl

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    Avian Moderator Brian Sump's Avatar
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    Dan sent you PM. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by dankearl View Post
    Brian, I shoot auto iso when shooting birds with the D500,
    For birds in flight I shoot wide open, 1/2000 min.(only when dark), 1/2500 min. in decent light.
    I dial the iso + for exposure compensation, I hardly ever set iso to minus, I don't shoot in bright sunlight.
    For perched birds, still a good idea to stay at 1/1000 min.
    I set iso400min and iso6400 max.

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    Super Moderator Daniel Cadieux's Avatar
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    Beautiful light and neat pose. Do you sharpen your images after resizing? If not, you should. Just to get the fine details up to snuff. DanK is correct also for the ISO. In the last 10 years + I don;t think I've ever dipped below ISO 400 for bird photography. This just keeps the shutter speeds higher and gives you more consistency in getting those sharp images when action occurs. I like the brightness in Steve K's repost, but prefer the warm richness of the original post.

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    Lovely frame. Nice pose and light. I don't mind the green blotches.

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    Avian Moderator Brian Sump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Cadieux View Post
    Beautiful light and neat pose. Do you sharpen your images after resizing? If not, you should. Just to get the fine details up to snuff. DanK is correct also for the ISO. In the last 10 years + I don;t think I've ever dipped below ISO 400 for bird photography. This just keeps the shutter speeds higher and gives you more consistency in getting those sharp images when action occurs. I like the brightness in Steve K's repost, but prefer the warm richness of the original post.
    Daniel, thank you. Great suggestion - no I don't; didn't even really know I could/should without hurting the image more than helping.

    Any preferred method after saving to forum specs? Just global increase in LR?

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    Wildlife Moderator Steve Kaluski's Avatar
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    Post in Lightroom
    Hi Brian I assume you just worked in LR from the above.

    I'm not going to push you into any one Raw converter, it's you call, but being able to toggle between the two works well, but it's how it all dovetails in your own workflow, just be aware LR adds contrast behind the scenes, so as in ACR I would keep the 'Profile' in Lr/ACR to Adobe Standard, it's less harsh so to speak, but in it's nature it does add Contrast, as they have the same 'engine'.

    EDIT: a quick search reveals that I can "Save As" in PS and it will stack a version with my edits in LR. So awesome!
    If you save back into LR you can crop and then Export adding in your own watermark, just correctly set the Export window.

    50% crop
    BTW Try to avoid hefty crops, you loose IQ.
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    Avian Moderator Brian Sump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Kaluski View Post
    Hi Brian I assume you just worked in LR from the above.

    I'm not going to push you into any one Raw converter, it's you call, but being able to toggle between the two works well, but it's how it all dovetails in your own workflow, just be aware LR adds contrast behind the scenes, so as in ACR I would keep the 'Profile' in Lr/ACR to Adobe Standard, it's less harsh so to speak, but in it's nature it does add Contrast, as they have the same 'engine'.



    If you save back into LR you can crop and then Export adding in your own watermark, just correctly set the Export window.



    BTW Try to avoid hefty crops, you loose IQ.
    Steve, I was able to practice a little editing and saving.

    Knowing this, would you mind sharing (generally) what aspects of the photo you edit in LR versus PS - particularly in light of this last comment about 'RAW conversion'? (I didn't quite understand your comments about ACR)

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    Hi Brian, this image is very pretty, you got the peak breeding plumage and a nice BG. Steve's repost is a bit too red, the American specie is very orange I did some small edits , adjusted exposure and applied a bit more sharpening. as always would be better to start from RAW. you don't need LR, C1P does a much better job for RAW conversion (if in doubt ask Artie ;) )

    the focus is definitely sharp but the output has not been sharpened. every time we resize an image we need to sharpen it. All you need to do in the last step is to mask the BG and apply one round of smart sharpen to the bird (use amount 100-150 radius 0.5) which is what I did here

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    with the D500 ISO 400 is pretty nice and clean, it's the starting ISO for BIF photography. it can a great job all the way up to 1600 and even higher.
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 04-29-2020 at 11:55 PM.
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    Very nice frame. I love the pose and droplets coming off the feet. Ditto another round of sharpening which the RPs has addressed. I don't mind the green bits and think they're nice actually. Good discussion of techs above, I generally aim for 1/3200 or 1/4000 is I can. TFS

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    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    Hi Brian, this image is very pretty, you got the peak breeding plumage and a nice BG. Steve's repost is a bit too red, the American specie is very orange I did some small edits , adjusted exposure and applied a bit more sharpening. as always would be better to start from RAW. you don't need LR, C1P does a much better job for RAW conversion (if in doubt ask Artie ;) )

    the ficus is effeminately sharp but the output has not been sharpened. every time we resize an image we need to sharpen it. All you need to do in the last step is to mask the BG and apply one round of smart sharpen to the bird (use amount 100-150 radius 0.5) which is what I did here

    with the D500 ISO 400 is pretty nice and clean, it's the starting ISO for BIF photography. it can a great job all the way up to 1600 and even higher.

    Ari, thanks a bunch! Curious to know exactly what you did on exposure and other to get more detail in the whites and enhance the orange on the head?

    I have been toying with the smart sharpen this afternoon since your reply on the other post. So if I understand correct, I process normal sharpening for the image at normal res, say 4000x5000. Then, when shrinking o post here @ 1900 px or say, FB, at 1200 px go ahead and run another round of the smart sharpen with those settings and save as jpg or png?

    PS - I have LR and PS. Also acquired C1P and have been reading your guide, but I think it's making me more confused (not the guide necessarily, just adding C1P when I am getting more comfortable with PS and LR together).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Becker View Post
    Very nice frame. I love the pose and droplets coming off the feet. Ditto another round of sharpening which the RPs has addressed. I don't mind the green bits and think they're nice actually. Good discussion of techs above, I generally aim for 1/3200 or 1/4000 is I can. TFS
    Appreciate it Alan. When you shoot at those speeds, does noise not concern you upwards of ISO 3200?

    I saw Ari's shot of the Short-eared owl today at ISO 2000 it showed zero noise. That's beyond me. I have a good bit to learn still on dialing in settings in M.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Sump View Post
    Ari, thanks a bunch! Curious to know exactly what you did on exposure and other to get more detail in the whites and enhance the orange on the head?

    I have been toying with the smart sharpen this afternoon since your reply on the other post. So if I understand correct, I process normal sharpening for the image at normal res, say 4000x5000. Then, when shrinking o post here @ 1900 px or say, FB, at 1200 px go ahead and run another round of the smart sharpen with those settings and save as jpg or png?

    PS - I have LR and PS. Also acquired C1P and have been reading your guide, but I think it's making me more confused (not the guide necessarily, just adding C1P when I am getting more comfortable with PS and LR together).

    Hi Brian,

    Exposure : the image was underexposed as posted, so I lifted the exposure very simple. I didn't have the RAW but in C1P just increase exposure by 3/4 stop. same in LR but in LR the noise will increase as the software is unable to handle it. it will be noisy and IQ might suffer. you will have to deal with it using neat image in PS. here you can probably get away because ISO was really low.

    colors: If you use C1P do nothing it comes it like that as it can read and apply Nikon's magic WB that is dead accurate 99% of the time. You are out of luck with LR, it cannot read the WB correctly so the image will either be dull or have a magenta / cyan cast. You need to adjust the selective color channels in PS but that will also make the BG look unnatural because of the non-linear nature of the color shifts. so you have to mask the BG and do it on the bird (this is what I did above)

    details: Mask the BG using layers in photoshop at full size TIFF. save the file. then downsample to the intended size (say 1920 pixels wide) then select the bird layer and apply smart sharpen as mentioned above. (the details of this process are discussed in mine and Artie's PP guide). Never use PNG (dead obsolete format) for posting, some devices cannot read the profile from PNG. use JPEG like the rest of the world :) we use save for web in PS to compress the image w/o destroying the fine details.

    hope this helps
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Sump View Post
    Appreciate it Alan. When you shoot at those speeds, does noise not concern you upwards of ISO 3200?

    I saw Ari's shot of the Short-eared owl today at ISO 2000 it showed zero noise. That's beyond me. I have a good bit to learn still on dialing in settings in M.
    Hi Brian,

    ISO performance depends on the camera body. Like everything else in life you pretty much get what you pay for. the full frame Canon 1DX II/III or the Nikon D5/D6 bodies are significantly better and also more expensive than the APS-C D500 which itself is significantly better than something like a tiny sensor Olympus mirrorless camera. A D5 for example has hardly any noise visible at ISO 3200 where as the Nikon D500 can start to show significant IQ degradation. For the SEO image it's the superior equipment showing its advantage.

    the other factor is the RAW conversion SW, as I have pointed out here many times, Adobe LR software cannot handle noise in the de-mosaic process so the images look a lot more grainy than they are. For Canon image I used DPP which gave superior demosaic results with no noise visible similar to C1P for Nikon.

    the last factor is the quality of optics, if the lens is tack sharp it will not need a lot of sharpening applied to RAW which in turn increases visible noise.

    so in short it is definitely possible to make noise free images at ISO 3200 or even 6400 but it often requires advanced equipment (definitely full-frame sensors) and the best software to achieve it. the raw needs to be sharp and not much cropping can be done.

    hope this helps
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 04-29-2020 at 01:15 AM.
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    Avian Moderator Brian Sump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    Hi Brian,

    Exposure : the image was underexposed as posted, so I lifted the exposure very simple. I didn't have the RAW but in C1P just increase exposure by 3/4 stop. same in LR but in LR the noise will increase as the software is unable to handle it. it will be noisy and IQ might suffer. you will have to deal with it using neat image in PS. here you can probably get away because ISO was really low.

    colors: If you use C1P do nothing it comes it like that as it can read and apply Nikon's magic WB that is dead accurate 99% of the time. You are out of luck with LR, it cannot read the WB correctly so the image will either be dull or have a magenta / cyan cast. You need to adjust the selective color channels in PS but that will also make the BG look unnatural because of the non-linear nature of the color shifts. so you have to mask the BG and do it on the bird (this is what I did above)

    details: Mask the BG using layers in photoshop at full size TIFF. save the file. then downsample to the intended size (say 1920 pixels wide) then select the bird layer and apply smart sharpen as mentioned above. (the details of this process are discussed in mine and Artie's PP guide). Never use PNG (dead obsolete format) for posting, some devices cannot read the profile from PNG. use JPEG like the rest of the world :) we use save for web in PS to compress the image w/o destroying the fine details.

    hope this helps
    Ari, it totally helps. But I pulled the raw file into C1P today and spent about an hour with it and I just can't seem to get the detail in the white and smooth orange head like you did, and you even edited a downsampled jpg :-/ Aggravating...

    I will get the PP guide and hopefully see what I am missing.

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    Avian Moderator Brian Sump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    Hi Brian,

    ISO performance depends on the camera body. Like everything else in life you pretty much get what you pay for. the full frame Canon 1DX II/III or the Nikon D5/D6 bodies are significantly better and also more expensive than the APS-C D500 which itself is significantly better than something like a tiny sensor Olympus mirrorless camera. A D5 for example has hardly any noise visible at ISO 3200 where as the Nikon D500 can start to show significant IQ degradation. For the SEO image it's the superior equipment showing its advantage.

    the other factor is the RAW conversion SW, as I have pointed out here many times, Adobe LR software cannot handle noise in the de-mosaic process so the images look a lot more grainy than they are. For Canon image I used DPP which gave superior demosaic results with no noise visible similar to C1P for Nikon.

    the last factor is the quality of optics, if the lens is tack sharp it will not need a lot of sharpening applied to RAW which in turn increases visible noise.

    so in short it is definitely possible to make noise free images at ISO 3200 or even 6400 but it often requires advanced equipment (definitely full-frame sensors) and the best software to achieve it. the raw needs to be sharp and not much cropping can be done.

    hope this helps
    You're so gracious Ari. Did't realize how much I didn't realize about photography...

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